A glance at Saudi government-approved fatwas

[Sahar]

Honestly the thought that I would never be able to enjoy looking at attractive women as a healthy man, that just sounds utterly demoralizing. we are men, oppress our sexual drive and we become only half men, and only half alive.

Poor man! Where has your attractive wife gone?

 

[no-body]

Holy cripes... this thread fortifies my belief that all fundamentalism in any religion is wrong and will always be wrong. Sharia law, whatever... in any religion it's pure b.s. telling people what to do.

If you don't like it don't do it. As long as it's not hurting anyone else... hey mind your own G.D. business about what other people do.

I love Sufi Islam; love submission to God, Mysticism, etc. But as soon as you organize it, you are leaving God, sorry.

 

[Starsoul]

That is certainly how these fatwas come across. As if the people issuing them based their fatwas not on what is good sense, nor even on what is nonsense, but rather on pure, abject fear that Islam cannot stand up to friendship with kafirs. I would think such people as created these fatwas out of fear to be weak and foolish.

I have been observing how Everyone is taking things the other way round regarding the fatwas.

Firstly, the fatwas are for only Muslims to follow, and the lack of deeper understanding is quite evident from the posts on this thread. For non-muslims who are not even aware of the roots of the religion, cannot even relate or be expected to understand what the religion has to say, that THAT clearly POINTS out the 'limitation of friendship' between a muslim and a non-muslim.

When the other side does not even know and understand the major or basic principles of one's belief, practices and life style, how can they be a good friend when there is a grave difference of mutual understanding. Friendship will be there, but it will be limited between a practising muslim and a practising non-muslim becuase they wont be able to find much common grounds between their way of thinking and living.

All other things will happen ,like helping them out in need, greetings, a nice chitchat and reaching out, but when you cannot do most things together, you dont really become very good friends, and the reason is the difference of common grounds and common practices. e.g Muslims are not to go to dance clubs/ parties and places where alcohol/ nudity etc is the rage, and non-muslims usually look to socialize or enjoy within that circle. You could be friends with them from a univ. or your neighbourhood and you can also study together but if you are a practising muslim you wont be interested in going to clubs, concerts and parties with them. There are offcorse muslims who do that, but they arent practising muslims, so there.

And regarding flowers to be taken, although i wont be in favour of regarding it a rule, but it can come under recommendations. Its not safe taking flowers to the hospital for some patients at all for a lot of medical reasons as well. Flowers have pollen and pollen gives severe allergy to some people, and infections also spread by the way of pollen faster. Although i love flowers, but since i'd rather give the money that i buy an expensive bouquet for, to a poor needy person, i wont spend around 20- 35 Euros on just flowers which will wilt.That is the message of the fatwa.

But offcorse if i have flowers in my own garden and buying a bouqet does not equate a decent meal for 2 hungry people that i know of, (i'd rather just give the money to charity), make a nice bouquet myself or buy it (within a reasonable limit) for that person, but a better choice would always be something useful to buy for the ill person like fresh fruits, juices/soups or some yummy home cooked thing. Expensive bouquets are probably MAYBE used by those societies who lack the better healthier choices of token of hospitalities? (couldnt think of a word ) Not really though, but sometimes an expensive bouquet of flowers does irritate me for the lack of its purpose and use. But thats just my opinion. I love flowers

 

[Caladan]

Poor man! Where has your attractive wife gone?

haha.. I might love one specific woman, but I am still a man, to deny myself that would mean I cannot be the man my woman deserves.

 

[Starsoul]

The places with the highest quality of life are the places with some of the highest rates of organic secularism. That is a fact.

The places with the highest quality of life also are the places with highest rates of crime.

And that is probably because those who live at the lesser end of the quality, consider themselves as victims of quality sustenance at the hands of the 'quality affording class' and Hence self justify to steal, kill , rob in order to equate their quality of life with the better/ best quality.They are given an Image of Quality which actually only Heaven can give them without any injustices attached, rather than snaking their way up illegally to taste it by either hook or crook.

The amount of wealth gathered by the elite in this world usually involves a lot of con and deception meted out to the working class, and acquiring wealth by those means is not allowed in Islam. (so even if all people in America acquire a similar level of quality and luxury, all people of the world wont, and thats injustice) In Islam 'equality in limited resources' in this world' dominates the idea of ' unlimited luxury confined within the elite or a certain portion of the society'. This is why,

Quality by no means preserves a balance in a society if it is not provided at the level of 'Equality'. And Equality of this world's resources among all its inhabitants, in a luxurious level of distribution, is just Not possible. So to attain a level of satisfactory everlasting happiness and ever improving quality, is just not possible where there is war and crime in this world. Whats possible is, that i don't buy a ferrari, don't invest my resources in building a car which serves only to the richest and has no spirit of welfare.

What i should rather do, is distribute my excess wealth to increase the quality of life of the under privileged rather than built a yatch for high class luxury events. But that is NEVER going to happen as we see the ways of the world, nobody spends their greed acquired monstrous wealth for the substantial uplifting of poverty, what they do give as charity is like a pinch of salt to the sea. That is why we have the concept of heaven where luxury will be lived by all, with no greed, no crimes and no jealousy. I must say though that after living in and visiting the 3rd world and very poor places, the west, Europe and America/Australia really do look like Heavens, if 'quality of life' on its surface was to be judged.

But since, that Quality is Not excercised, distributed, and shared with the under developed countries at their own terms, (religious /cultural or whichever reasons) it remains highly restricted to the west. But that does not mean that the under developed world is entirely lacking in its treasures. The mangoes of Asia still taste like Heaven if compared to any delicious fruit that is available in the Entire west! Maybe i'm limited in my exposure but sigh, the mangoes are drop dead gorgeous and allow people to relish in their little own heavens within their limited resources. Alhamdulilah.

And since muslims have Heaven as a reward for practising patience in the face of severe temptations and injustices in this world, we dont feel too left out of the developed loop of the better world, its not going to last that long anyway. Its a waste how much human effort goes into luxury development and how its all going to come down like dust one day.

 

[Starsoul]

Honestly the thought that I would never be able to enjoy looking at attractive women as a healthy man, that just sounds utterly demoralizing. we are men, oppress our sexual drive and we become only half men, and only half alive.

Well its more demoralizing when men cheat (without any traces) to amuse themselves while when with one partner, rather than limit their personal joys to 1, 2, or even upto 4 women legally (in islam). If they are your wives, you are free to preserve your manhood with due respect and due responsibility rather than belittle them by using and throwing them away after a little appreciation. Segregation of a society nurtures human nature, and prevents from de-sensitization for the fairer sex. The more sensuous a preserved response is, the more exhilarating the experience.

 

[Meow Mix]

The places with the highest quality of life also are the places with highest rates of crime.

And that is probably because those who live at the lesser end of the quality, consider themselves as victims of quality sustenance at the hands of the 'quality affording class' and Hence self justify to steal, kill , rob in order to equate their quality of life with the better/ best quality.They are given an Image of Quality which actually only Heaven can give them without any injustices attached, rather than snaking their way up illegally to taste it by either hook or crook.

The amount of wealth gathered by the elite in this world usually involves a lot of con and deception meted out to the working class, and acquiring wealth by those means is not allowed in Islam. (so even if all people in America acquire a similar level of quality and luxury, all people of the world wont, and thats injustice) In Islam 'equality in limited resources' in this world' dominates the idea of ' unlimited luxury confined within the elite or a certain portion of the society'. This is why,

Quality by no means preserves a balance in a society if it is not provided at the level of 'Equality'. And Equality of this world's resources among all its inhabitants, in a luxurious level of distribution, is just Not possible. So to attain a level of satisfactory everlasting happiness and ever improving quality, is just not possible where there is war and crime in this world. Whats possible is, that i don't buy a ferrari, don't invest my resources in building a car which serves only to the richest and has no spirit of welfare.

What i should rather do, is distribute my excess wealth to increase the quality of life of the under privileged rather than built a yatch for high class luxury events. But that is NEVER going to happen as we see the ways of the world, nobody spends their greed acquired monstrous wealth for the substantial uplifting of poverty, what they do give as charity is like a pinch of salt to the sea. That is why we have the concept of heaven where luxury will be lived by all, with no greed, no crimes and no jealousy. I must say though that after living in and visiting the 3rd world and very poor places, the west, Europe and America/Australia really do look like Heavens, if 'quality of life' on its surface was to be judged.

But since, that Quality is Not excercised, distributed, and shared with the under developed countries at their own terms, (religious /cultural or whichever reasons) it remains highly restricted to the west. But that does not mean that the under developed world is entirely lacking in its treasures. The mangoes of Asia still taste like Heaven if compared to any delicious fruit that is available in the Entire west! Maybe i'm limited in my exposure but sigh, the mangoes are drop dead gorgeous and allow people to relish in their little own heavens within their limited resources. Alhamdulilah.

And since muslims have Heaven as a reward for practising patience in the face of severe temptations and injustices in this world, we dont feel too left out of the developed loop of the better world, its not going to last that long anyway. Its a waste how much human effort goes into luxury development and how its all going to come down like dust one day.

Crime rate vs. religiosity in the US shows an inverse relationship:

Poverty vs. religiosity in the States shows the same:

In fact the same is true for the whole world:

What Alabamians and Iranians Have in Common

 

[darkendless]

The OP is absurd and pathetic, especially adressing the muslim to non-muslim relationship.

Is a friend of mine who is a muslim less of a muslim because his friends are infidels?

Whats scarey is if muslims think like this, how do they expect to integrate into countries they immigrate to?

 

[Caladan]

Well its more demoralizing when men cheat (without any traces) to amuse themselves while when with one partner, rather than limit their personal joys to 1, 2, or even upto 4 women legally (in islam). If they are your wives, you are free to preserve your manhood with due respect and due responsibility rather than belittle them by using and throwing them away after a little appreciation. Segregation of a society nurtures human nature, and prevents from de-sensitization for the fairer sex. The more sensuous a preserved response is, the more exhilarating the experience.

I have NO idea what you're talking about, you are all over the place, did anyone in this thread said anyting abut cheating? really anyone?
if Muslim men are afraid to look at women, I personally find it impotent, because personally looking at an attractive woman is one of the things which gives most men a peace of mind.

 

[Starsoul]

Crime rate vs. religiosity in the US shows an inverse relationship:

Poverty vs. religiosity in the States shows the same:

In fact the same is true for the whole world:

What Alabamians and Iranians Have in Common

The fact still remains the same, that US is undisputedly the number one in the top crime rates list in the world.

World Top Ten Countries With Highest Crime Rates

I cannot comment over the poverty vs religion map, i have little knowledge of the actual religious practices of the americans. But poverty being concentrated in places like Africa and India is a whole lot related to the infrastructure and corrupt political leadership than anything else. India has a religious culture where there is a religious un-equality of its citizens based solely on the caste and creed they belong to, the poor are more of a 'segregated untouchable sect' of the society rather than just poor, and they are taught, expected and subjugated to remain at that level because thats who they are (very unfortunately). I hope things are changing now though, they just have very little rights, unfortunately.

But if you compare the maps, its surprising how small the poverty areas are in comparison with the economically strong areas and yet the rich wont just make things better where they actually should.

 

[Sufi]

The Associated Press: A glance at Saudi government-approved fatwas

TAKING FLOWERS TO THE SICK:

_ "This practice is impermissible as it entails wasting money on non-useful purposes and imitating Allah's adversaries in this custom."

___

CINEMAS:

_ "It is not permissible for a Muslim to build a cinema, or run it for himself or for another person, due to the forbidden kinds of amusement it provides. As shown today around the globe, it presents obscene scenes and images that provoke desires and promote lewdness and immorality. Furthermore, it helps women mix with men who are not Mahram (spouse or unmarriageable relatives)."
___

SWIMMING POOLS:

_ "The mingling of boys and girls in studying is Haram (prohibited). The same applies to showering and swimming while naked (or semi naked) in a swimming pool, whether they are young or old, for the Fitnah (sedition) occurring due to this, and for seeing each others' 'Awrah' (private parts of the body that must be covered in public), this is also considered a means to mischief and evil."

___

RELATIONS WITH NON-MUSLIMS:

"A Muslim should not begin greeting the non-Muslims. However, when the Jews, Christians, or others offer Salam (greetings), he should reply "Wa `Alaykum" (the same to you) ... These are some of the rights the non-Muslims have on Muslims. This also includes the right of being a good neighbor. You must not harm your non-Muslim neighbors. You should give them charity if they are needy."

"It is not permissible for a Muslim to follow the funeral of a Kafir (disbeliever), for this is considered an act of loyalty to them which is Haram (prohibited). However, consoling them is acceptable."

"Relationships based on mutual affection, love and brotherhood between a Muslim and a Kafir are prohibited. It might render a Muslim as a Kafir. There is nothing wrong, however, if the kind of relationship developed between the Muslim and Kafir does not go beyond selling and buying or accepting the Kafir's invitation to have lawful food with him or accepting a lawful present, provided that no harm is done to the Muslim's faith."

I still dont see any references for these fatwa's (wich scholars issued them their evidences etc).

 

[Bismillah]

I have NO idea what you're talking about, you are all over the place, did anyone in this thread said anyting abut cheating? really anyone?
if Muslim men are afraid to look at women, I personally find it impotent, because personally looking at an attractive woman is one of the things which gives most men a peace of mind.

I'm not afraid to look at women on campus, I just prefer not to reinforce their self-destructive beliefs. This seems to give me peace of mind

The OP is absurd and pathetic, especially adressing the muslim to non-muslim relationship.

Is a friend of mine who is a muslim less of a muslim because his friends are infidels?

Whats scarey is if muslims think like this, how do they expect to integrate into countries they immigrate to?

As a Muslim attending University and having spent the majority of my upbringing in America, I can relate to the OP's statement to a level. A man's closest friend is the one who can understand his problems, relate to his experiences, and celebrate with him the joys of life. Now I think most people would be in agreement with this statement. While I have many non-Muslim friends I hold in dear regard, I don't expect them to be able to reinforce me and lend sympathy towards my own faith, if for example I do not attend payers at the mosque. So while I hold many cherished relationships with non-Muslims and am happy for the diverse perspectives they instill in me, I cannot label these guys as my closest friends. That simply doesn't work when I'd rather go play indoor soccer after nightly prayers then go to the bar with a bunch of guys.

That said a government has no place mandating who my friends are and how close I can be with them.

 

[Starsoul]

I have NO idea what you're talking about, you are all over the place, did anyone in this thread said anyting abut cheating? really anyone?
if Muslim men are afraid to look at women, I personally find it impotent, because personally looking at an attractive woman is one of the things which gives most men a peace of mind.

I don't know why you sound offended, i'm plainly stating facts . You have no idea and that proves the whole point further. In Islam even relishing your peace of mind by having a full admiring look at a woman comes under the first act of cheating, because thats where the actual cheating starts from. If you don't nip the evil in the bud, it will grow one day to become a full fledged disaster. And thats where the west steals its pro-cheating delinquencies from. Islam says admire the woman, only while she is all yours.

How can then people from different faiths be really good buddies when they cant even sit together in a bar discussing beauty of every woman passing by, when in one faith things like that are discouraged. But if one has the respect and knowledge to still be friends, they must abide by the sensitivities of others which is not possible at all the times. peace .

 

[Sufi]

The Associated Press: A glance at Saudi government-approved fatwas


RELATIONS WITH NON-MUSLIMS:

"A Muslim should not begin greeting the non-Muslims. However, when the Jews, Christians, or others offer Salam (greetings), he should reply "Wa `Alaykum" (the same to you) ... These are some of the rights the non-Muslims have on Muslims. This also includes the right of being a good neighbor. You must not harm your non-Muslim neighbors. You should give them charity if they are needy."

"It is not permissible for a Muslim to follow the funeral of a Kafir (disbeliever), for this is considered an act of loyalty to them which is Haram (prohibited). However, consoling them is acceptable."

"Relationships based on mutual affection, love and brotherhood between a Muslim and a Kafir are prohibited. It might render a Muslim as a Kafir. There is nothing wrong, however, if the kind of relationship developed between the Muslim and Kafir does not go beyond selling and buying or accepting the Kafir's invitation to have lawful food with him or accepting a lawful present, provided that no harm is done to the Muslim's faith."

Can Muslims Take Jews and Christians as Friends?

[youtube]EpsQaY5oH2c[/youtube]
YouTube - Can Muslims Take Jews and Christians as Friends?

 

[Caladan]

I'm not afraid to look at women on campus, I just prefer not to reinforce their self-destructive beliefs. This seems to give me peace of mind

I have no idea what you just said.

 

[Bismillah]

I have no idea what you just said.

Let me break it down for you

I'm not afraid to look at women on campus,

In response to your statement of men being afraid to look at women.

I just prefer not to reinforce their self-destructive beliefs.

I view the lengths that women on campus go to expose themselves as self-destructive

This seems to give me peace of mind

It gives me peace of mind that I have a strong enough faith not to fail in the trap of praising habits and qualities of women that only end up hurting them.

 

[Caladan]

It gives me peace of mind that I have a strong enough faith not to fail in the trap of praising habits and qualities of women that only end up hurting them.

That is really some pathetic self righteous BS, if I ever heard any. I imagine that most of these Western women could do without your spirital concern for their well being, and im pretty sure they have no ability to reate to it either, so it makes it all insignificant other than fulfilling your own self rightous belief.

 

[England my lionheart]

Quite mild from a country thats one big Human rights disaster

 

[Bismillah]

That is really some pathetic self righteous BS,

Because I respect women who are modest in public more than those who would rather expose themselves? What in that is self righteous? Most "Westerners" have similar terms like a girl who likes to "sleep around". So it's only self-righteous when a Muslim thinks that :sarcastic

if I ever heard any. I imagine that most of these Western women could do without your spirital concern for their well being,

I imagine they could and do.

im pretty sure they have no ability to reate to it either

She could dress more modestly. That would earn my respect.

You have also completely missed the point.

 

[Caladan]

Because I respect women who are modest in public more than those who would rather expose themselves? What in that is self righteous? Most "Westerners" have similar terms like a girl who likes to "sleep around". So it's only self-righteous when a Muslim thinks that :sarcastic

We are men, they are women. all we really think about half the time is screwing each other, its in our instincts.. good luck repressing that one, and any man who does that, can never really please any woman.

She could dress more modestly. That would earn my respect.

Ah, but do they need your respect?