A glance at Saudi government-approved fatwas

[Father Heathen]

He is damn lucky then.

But they're causing him to lust!

 

[EiNsTeiN]

But they're causing him to lust!

Then he is definitely the luckiest guy in the state.

 

[Meow Mix]

Homosexuality is among the biggest sins in Islam. This needs a separate thread to discuss. Anyway, regarding all the other aspects, you will have very little rules to guide your living under an Islamic state.

In an Islamic state, you can have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. The dress code ain't really an issue as long as you are following the simple golden rule of Islam; don't try to look sexy!

...

Being a homosexual in an Islamic state is not a crime, and is totally tolerated and accepted. But committing homosexual acts is not. Just like any other sexual act (homosexual or straight).

Then I would fight tooth and nail against such a government ever being instated where I live. I'd prefer to be able to dress however I want, the government has no business telling me otherwise... and as a monogamous lesbian, I'd prefer to be able to express the love I have for my girlfriend physically legally in the privacy of our home and one day have the same right as anyone else to marry her.

 

[Meow Mix]

I would prefer a secular government that doesn't make social choices for people such as what to wear or who to love or how to express that love as long as no one is hurt and nobody's rights are infringed. Anything else, to me, is tyranny.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Then I would fight tooth and nail against such a government ever being instated where I live. I'd prefer to be able to dress however I want, the government has no business telling me otherwise... and as a monogamous lesbian, I'd prefer to be able to express the love I have for my girlfriend physically legally in the privacy of our home and one day have the same right as anyone else to marry her.

Can you marry her now?


What if someone thinks s/he should walk naked in public? do you want that to be acceptable in your state?

 

[Meow Mix]

Can you marry her now?


What if someone thinks s/he should walk naked in public? do you want that to be acceptable in your state?

Not in this state but we are going to be moving where it is legal when she finishes her classes. I don't see why anyone else gets to tell me that my love for her and her love for me are somehow lesser than love between men and women or false, or that we shouldn't enjoy the same rights to liberty and persuit of happiness together. We're not harming anybody!

As for public nudity I don't see what the big deal is. There are a lot of people I wouldn't want to see naked but why should it be that big of a deal? There are a lot of people with ugly faces, should we make them cover that up?

On the other extreme, the only reason people might get distracted by attractive people is because they're not used to seeing them. Back in the day, even in the West, seeing an ankle was considered highly erotic because women didn't show their ankles. Its eroticism came from its forbidden nature only. I've never seen a naked person in a non-sexual setting (which I've seen a lot of; swimming naked in pools and lakes, in locker rooms, when my friends are getting dressed, etc.) and had overwhelming sexual feelings; it's a myth that people would turn into sex-crazed animals if they saw an abdomen or snug fitting clothing -- unless it was forbidden/taboo for them, in which case the mystique draws them in!

I may think at first "She is a beautiful person" but it's not like I would be aroused sexually. It's like seeing a flower and thinking "Gosh that's a pretty flower" and then it's over.

A good society in my opinion is an open and free society, where people can live as they choose so long as they don't cause harm. I would be free to dress as I see fit, and a woman who wants to dress modestly would also be able to do so; and same for the men. What's wrong with that? Why can't we have choice; why does the state have to impose? That's tyranny in my opinion...

 

[EiNsTeiN]

You are living in a pink world. What you are talking about is "heaven".

You and I are certain that such a beautiful place would not exist. EVER.
Because humans are not capable for living in that. From a religious POV, God didn't create us to be that perfect; enjoy our lives and desires, not harming anyone, realizing the borderline between our desires, and social responsibilities, etc..

 

[Meow Mix]

You are living in a pink world. What you are talking about is "heaven".

You and I are certain that such a beautiful place would not exist. EVER.
Because humans are not capable for living in that. From a religious POV, God didn't create us to be that perfect; enjoy our lives and desires, not harming anyone, realizing the borderline between our desires, and social responsibilities, etc..

Such a place as I described does exist; it's called America. There are other places like it too, but I know America best since I live here.

It's not perfect; there are only some places in America where I can marry Alicia for instance. Yet everything else I've mentioned does happen in America. People are free to practice their own culture and beliefs and to meet one another in the middle in brotherhood/sisterhood and learn from one another.

I, an atheist lesbian, have very close friends who are deeply religious Christians. I've had neighbors who were Muslims. There are a great variety of beliefs and cultures where I live and they all intermingle 99% of the time without trouble and without anyone being banned from doing what's right for them just because someone else doesn't like it.

This freedom does exist in the West. It's not "heaven." It's not unattainable. It exists, and it's getting better over time: homosexual equality is just over the horizon, just like decades ago equality for races and for women was just over the horizon and now it's a reality.

So I disagree that what I'm talking about is unattainable. We're already reaching for it. We're almost there. We just need to keep going.

Adopting a system as you've described that would mandate what people wear or who they can love would be a giant step backwards in my opinion, and I would fight it to my last breath.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Such a place as I described does exist; it's called America. There are other places like it too, but I know America best since I live here.

It's not perfect; there are only some places in America where I can marry Alicia for instance. Yet everything else I've mentioned does happen in America. People are free to practice their own culture and beliefs and to meet one another in the middle in brotherhood/sisterhood and learn from one another.

I, an atheist lesbian, have very close friends who are deeply religious Christians. I've had neighbors who were Muslims. There are a great variety of beliefs and cultures where I live and they all intermingle 99% of the time without trouble and without anyone being banned from doing what's right for them just because someone else doesn't like it.

This freedom does exist in the West. It's not "heaven." It's not unattainable. It exists, and it's getting better over time: homosexual equality is just over the horizon, just like decades ago equality for races and for women was just over the horizon and now it's a reality.

So I disagree that what I'm talking about is unattainable. We're already reaching for it. We're almost there. We just need to keep going.

Adopting a system as you've described that would mandate what people wear or who they can love would be a giant step backwards in my opinion, and I would fight it to my last breath.

I didn't live in America before, but I'm quite certain that such freedom has lots of drawbacks that you are not considering. You might want to read statistics about suicides, rape, drinking, HIV, some other diseases, etc..

 

[Meow Mix]

I didn't live in America before, but I'm quite certain that such freedom has lots of drawbacks that you are not considering. You might want to read statistics about suicides, rape, drinking, HIV, some other diseases, etc..

Those things happen everywhere.

Let's say you're in college and one student in the classroom starts being loud and obnoxious. The teacher then punishes everyone in the class: is that just?

That's essentially what you're saying: that because there are a few bad eggs, then the whole rest of us should suffer for it.

I find that notion ridiculous (whether or not you agree with it, not saying that you do).

With freedom comes responsibility, and some people simply don't want responsibility so they cause a mess for themselves. They do it to themselves, we shouldn't punish everyone else because someone is an idiot.

Also the state of education can be improved in America, speaking of its statistics. Increase the quality of education and you will decrease the amount of social problems: but indeed, you can never eradicate social problems altogether.

Some people make stupid decisions. Why should the rest of us be punished for it? Responsible, mature adults shouldn't have their civil liberties infringed because an idiotic few make stupid decisions.

Plus, most of America is not secular. Most of America are living practically under self-imposed religious (Christian) rule. There are positive correlations between organic secularism (not necessarily atheism but acceptance of secular, free government) and the quality of life. That quality of life diminishes in places like America's south (called the "Bible belt") where religion starts dominating/controlling people's lives.

That's the cool part about free, secular society: if people want to live in religious misery they can. If they want to live in religious bliss, they can. If they want to live secularly, they can. If they want to embrace everyone despite their differences, they can.

Now imagine that you live somewhere that says you can't wear the color green just because they think it causes greed or something... what would you think about that?

 

[Alulu]

Let these saudi "scholars" speak out against their own government policies, racist law that their kings adopted, law not being applicable to family members of the king when they break them, abuse of poor foreign maids from poor (often Asian) countries without being taken to court very often etc. Once they did that, very open and in public I might even try to consider their "fatwas", though they are racist when you would replace "kafir" with Muslim. If a European politician would say "you should not greet Muslims", "dont go to their funerals" and "do absolutely not befriend Muslims or even worse, love them" they would also by many Muslims be accused of hate speech.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Those things happen everywhere.

Let's say you're in college and one student in the classroom starts being loud and obnoxious. The teacher then punishes everyone in the class: is that just?

That's essentially what you're saying: that because there are a few bad eggs, then the whole rest of us should suffer for it.

I find that notion ridiculous (whether or not you agree with it, not saying that you do).

With freedom comes responsibility, and some people simply don't want responsibility so they cause a mess for themselves. They do it to themselves, we shouldn't punish everyone else because someone is an idiot.

Also the state of education can be improved in America, speaking of its statistics. Increase the quality of education and you will decrease the amount of social problems: but indeed, you can never eradicate social problems altogether.

Some people make stupid decisions. Why should the rest of us be punished for it? Responsible, mature adults shouldn't have their civil liberties infringed because an idiotic few make stupid decisions.

Plus, most of America is not secular. Most of America are living practically under self-imposed religious (Christian) rule. There are positive correlations between organic secularism (not necessarily atheism but acceptance of secular, free government) and the quality of life. That quality of life diminishes in places like America's south (called the "Bible belt") where religion starts dominating/controlling people's lives.

That's the cool part about free, secular society: if people want to live in religious misery they can. If they want to live in religious bliss, they can. If they want to live secularly, they can. If they want to embrace everyone despite their differences, they can.

Now imagine that you live somewhere that says you can't wear the color green just because they think it causes greed or something... what would you think about that?

The red part is all I'm trying to say. But we disagree on the proportions, as I believe that most of the people are not up to the responsibility (by nature) of being that free. Even if this generation is responsible, most probably the upcoming generations won't. This is not going to be any consistent.

 

[Meow Mix]

The red part is all I'm trying to say. But we disagree on the proportions, as I believe that most of the people are not up to the responsibility (by nature) of being that free. Even if this generation is responsible, most probably the upcoming generations won't. This is not going to be any consistent.

So because some people are irresponsible all of us have to suffer? I strongly disagree.

I also disagree that most people can't be responsible. I think the irresponsible folks are in the minority, especially if education gets straightened out. A lot of irresponsible decisions come from ignorance and as far as I know in America things like basic logic, reasoning, and discerning fallacies in argument are not taught until students get to the college level. That's crazy to me! Such things prevent things like violence, racism, hatred in general, etc., and not everyone even ends up going to college so they miss out on very important stuff...

Anyway, going back to responsibility... if someone in your town ran down the hall with a kitchen knife and hurt themselves, would you be outraged if the city officials came and took your kitchen knives? I certainly would be. It simply isn't a tenable position to say that if someone messes up then everyone else should suffer for it. Why punish mature, responsible adults for what idiots do?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Now imagine that you live somewhere that says you can't wear the color green just because they think it causes greed or something... what would you think about that?

I do have to carry my car license everywhere, though it's totally unconvincing to me. And I have to fasten my seatbelt, though I find it a ridiculous invention, because it can damage my chest in accidents (hypothetically speaking). I just follow the "system". I don't like some aspects of it, but I'm generally ok, and the entire society is happier in a large scale.

 

[Meow Mix]

I do have to carry my car license everywhere, though it's totally unconvincing to me. And I have to fasten my seatbelt, though I find it a ridiculous invention, because it can damage my chest in accidents (hypothetically speaking). I just follow the "system". I don't like some aspects of it, but I'm generally ok, and the entire society is happier in a large scale.

I can understand carrying a license around as it helps to identify you and helps to show you have attained the privilege of driving a vehicle.

I agree with you on seat belts; they should be optional except perhaps for car seats of small children. Mature adults should make their own decision though.

How is choosing to wear a seatbelt or not comparable, though, to whether or not you can be with the person you love so much that you'd take any bullet for?

Do you have a wife or a girlfriend? What if your government said "No, I don't like that you two love each other, you can't do that?"

What then?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

So because some people are irresponsible all of us have to suffer? I strongly disagree.

I also disagree that most people can't be responsible. I think the irresponsible folks are in the minority, especially if education gets straightened out. A lot of irresponsible decisions come from ignorance and as far as I know in America things like basic logic, reasoning, and discerning fallacies in argument are not taught until students get to the college level. That's crazy to me! Such things prevent things like violence, racism, hatred in general, etc., and not everyone even ends up going to college so they miss out on very important stuff...

Anyway, going back to responsibility... if someone in your town ran down the hall with a kitchen knife and hurt themselves, would you be outraged if the city officials came and took your kitchen knives? I certainly would be. It simply isn't a tenable position to say that if someone messes up then everyone else should suffer for it. Why punish mature, responsible adults for what idiots do?

Well, that's why I told you we disagree on the proportions.

There is still a good deal of racism in America, that might not exist in nations that are less educated. Education is not everything.

I can be a professor and still be a drugs addict, or a racist, or a murderer.

 

[Meow Mix]

Well, that's why I told you we disagree on the proportions.

There is still a good deal of racism in America, that might not exist in nations that are less educated. Education is not everything.

I can be a professor and still be a drugs addict, or a racist, or a murderer.

Yes there is and people are free to be racist if they want; but they are not free to harm anyone. Racism is also steadily diminishing in most places (oddly enough, the more secular the place the less racism there is!)

Drug addictions, racism, and murder happen even under Islamic law. Obviously it doesn't have magic charms that stop that stuff. That stuff is going to happen no matter what. Why should everyone else suffer blows to their civil liberties then?

I still think that free secular societies are best. If people want to live by religious rules, the cool thing is that they most certainly can in a free secular society. They just can't force people who don't want it to live by that too. What's wrong with that?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I can understand carrying a license around as it helps to identify you and helps to show you have attained the privilege of driving a vehicle.

I agree with you on seat belts; they should be optional except perhaps for car seats of small children. Mature adults should make their own decision though.

How is choosing to wear a seatbelt or not comparable, though, to whether or not you can be with the person you love so much that you'd take any bullet for?

Do you have a wife or a girlfriend? What if your government said "No, I don't like that you two love each other, you can't do that?"

What then?

I realize this is not comparable. Love is a complicated issue.
Don't ask me that question, because my faith would influence my answer. I will answer by saying that, yes, it will be too damn hard to separate, but I'll be certain we are uniting again in the afterlife. For atheists this would not make any sense, but it's my answer.

 

[Meow Mix]

I realize this is not comparable. Love is a complicated issue.
Don't ask me that question, because my faith would influence my answer. I will answer by saying that, yes, it will be too damn hard to separate, but I'll be certain we are uniting again in the afterlife. For atheists this would not make any sense, but it's my answer.

So if you believe in an afterlife then why not let people love who they will in this life and be happy together, and then if Allah is not pleased with them then only the one truly capable of judging -- Allah Himself -- can do so?

Why have the society stop people who love each other?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Yes there is and people are free to be racist if they want; but they are not free to harm anyone. Racism is also steadily diminishing in most places (oddly enough, the more secular the place the less racism there is!)

Drug addictions, racism, and murder happen even under Islamic law. Obviously it doesn't have magic charms that stop that stuff. That stuff is going to happen no matter what. Why should everyone else suffer blows to their civil liberties then?

I still think that free secular societies are best. If people want to live by religious rules, the cool thing is that they most certainly can in a free secular society. They just can't force people who don't want it to live by that too. What's wrong with that?

Yeah, drug addiction, racism, and murder happen under Islamic law. I didn't claim that an Islamic state is a Utopia.

But we can compare by statistics.

It's not about the individual scale, and that's what I tried to show you earlier in the seatbelt example. It's about the wider scale; the society. It's not about your individual freedom of religion, or how you live individually. It's about the health of the entire society.