A Global Phenomenon

[ChristineM]

If the nation you lived in changed their laws unanimously tomorrow that Atheism was illegal, and punishable by up to $50,000 and a minimum of 15 years in prison, would you comply? Would you move? As Quin put it, it is not about religions being "above the law", it is about laws being specifically predatory.

Yes I'd move.

You mean religion being above predatory law... It is still the law.

 

[ChristineM]

Normally I would agree with you. And you should know that I think that the Jehovah's Witnesses are about as close to being insane as is possible. But even so that does not justify abuse and torture. If a person is supposed to serve in the military or face prison time, then give them prison time. One cannot add torture into the mix.

I do agree with you but we do not have sovereignty over those countries that consider abuse and torture part of their legal system. My solution is get out of there.

 

[ChristineM]

I'm on the opposite side of this one to you as well. There are countries where being an atheist is illegal, or persecuted.

If a person breaks a specific law, then the consequences should be the same for them as others, regardless of religion. But that cuts both ways. There are countries where belonging to a religion results in more negative consequences than others receive, and I stand against that for the same reason I stand against persecution for the non-religious, homosexuals, women, etc.

Everyone seems.to.be reading me wrongly. I am strongly against persecution for any reason but we have no sovereignty over the counties involved. We cannot change there laws even if we don't agree with them. So the best option is to resettle in a country with more humanity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

My question here is: Are they being targetted or do they just happen to end up being screwed because they just happen to be the ones breaking the law?

The two things have completely different implications. In the first case, the laws were tailored with the intent to persecute them. In the second case, simply no religious exemption is being granted. So which one is it?

Happy Birthday Koldo. Hope you have many more and live long and prosper.

 

[Koldo]

Happy Birthday Koldo. Hope you have many more and live long and prosper.

Thank you!

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes i know what the thread is about, if people followed the law state religious persecution would not exist.

Why should religion be above the law?

The law is made for all the people, religion should not give people a cop out

Yes very true. A nations laws must be adhered to religion or no religion.

How can any religion not be mistrusted or even banned if these sorts of things are going on? Now Australia and USA have not banned them but how do we know other bans are not for breaking these laws? Once these things are discovered, a religion loses its credibility.
https://www.childabuseroyalcommissi...29 - Findings Report - Jehovahs Witnesses.pdf
https://www.childabuseroyalcommissi...29 - Findings Report - Jehovahs Witnesses.pdf

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...d-members-accused-of-child-abuse-report-says/

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

You mean religion being above predatory law... It is still the law.

This exact mentality has been used to justify some of the worst actions humanity has ever known. How can you be okay with that?

Yes I'd move.

And if you can't move? For many people, moving even within the same country is not an option. What's more I doubt it'd be an unknown in your community that you're Atheist, and assuming such a draconian law would ever be put in place someone is going to rat you out. How are you going to move?

 

[ChristineM]

This exact mentality has been used to justify some of the worst actions humanity has ever known. How can you be okay with that?


And if you can't move? For many people, moving even within the same country is not an option. What's more I doubt it'd be an unknown in your community that you're Atheist, and assuming such a draconian law would ever be put in place someone is going to rat you out. How are you going to move?

Who said im ok with that. It is the way it is and there is nothing i or anyone else can do about it.


You asked would i move, i replied to that question. You did not ask "what if you can't move"

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Who said im ok with that. It is the way it is and there is nothing i or anyone else can do about it.

For subjects and situations like this, apathy is acceptance. If we are to stand for liberty and justice, we cannot simply shrug our shoulders and say "well, that's the law". We need to challenge it, change it, prevent it from happening in practice. Justice is a scale, not a sword, and the moment application of the law starts being wielded as a sword it ceases being justice. It is oppression, and those wielding it the oppressors.

You asked would i move, i replied to that question. You did not ask "what if you can't move"

Yes, and I am progressing the example to illustrate why it is wrong. Moving is not easy for everyone, and for some it's not even an option. Furthermore if the government is willing to implement such "laws" that make a belief or state-of-being illegal, then simply existing makes one a pariah and a criminal. You cannot move elsewhere if you're detained because your existence is against the law. And beyond that, you shouldn't have to move elsewhere; such a "law" should not be implemented in the first place.

 

[ChristineM]

For subjects and situations like this, apathy is acceptance. If we are to stand for liberty and justice,

So whst have you done to change the sovereign laws of another country?

Yes, and I am progressing

I don't really care if you move the goalposts, i have answered your question

; such a "law" should not be implemented in the first place.

So what are you doing about it? Getting on your high horse on an internet forum.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I don't really care if you move the goalposts, i have answered your question

It's not moving the goalposts if it's related to the same topic of discussion. Asking how you would move when your very existence is illegal is very relevant, not something completely different.

So whst have you done to change the sovereign laws of another country?
So what are you doing about it? Getting on your high horse on an internet forum.

Now this is moving the goalpost. But to answer, I'm doing what I can; speaking out against stuff like this as I become aware of it, writing to representatives and delegates in the UN, and voting in my own community to ensure as best I can that harmful weaponization of the law like this does not happen here. Is it effective? I don't know. But it's more than shrugging shoulders and saying "it is what it is." We need to not do that. We need to never do that, because we have seen what results from that.

 

[ChristineM]

It's not moving the goalposts if it's related to the same topic of discussion

Totally opposite id moving the goalposts

Now this is moving the goalpost. But to answer, I'm doing what I can; speaking out against stuff like this as I become aware of it,

Nope its just asking you the same as you want me to answer. And its helping how?

It actually is happening in America, laws are passed diminishing the rights of women. Are you protesting the anti abortion laws or that woman must cover their arms in government buildings?

 

[nPeace]

Yes, and I am progressing the example to illustrate why it is wrong. Moving is not easy for everyone, and for some it's not even an option. Furthermore if the government is willing to implement such "laws" that make a belief or state-of-being illegal, then simply existing makes one a pariah and a criminal. You cannot move elsewhere if you're detained because your existence is against the law. And beyond that, you shouldn't have to move elsewhere; such a "law" should not be implemented in the first place.

I think most persons understand the point you are making.

If for example, you live in a country, where you have certain "freedom", but you are planning on moving to another country, it is wise to find out what that country's laws and policies are, before moving, because if they have a law, which restricts your freedom, you would be able to decide if to still go, and face the consequences of "exercising your freedom", or stay away from there.

That's entirely different to what you are pointing out - where you exist in a country, where you already have certain freedoms, but then the government decides to implement a law, or laws, intended to take away your freedom.
The intent is not to force you to move, but to demoralize you.

In Russia and the post-Soviet republics of Caucasus and Central Asia, the report explains, the roots of the persecution are in a Soviet propaganda that “spent decades demonizing Jehovah’s Witnesses as a danger to society.” While in more recent years, “it was easy to transition from viewing the historically vilified community as ‘anti-Soviet’ to branding them as ‘extremist,’” post-Soviet Russia added other reasons to crack down on the Witnesses, including official anti-American and anti-Western rhetoric and the influence of the most conservative faction of the Russian Orthodox Church. Russian influence was crucial in several post-Soviet republics, leading to a total ban in Tajikistan, accelerating crackdown in Turkmenistan, and discrimination in other countries.

With some persons - especially those like Putin, trying to reason, or appeal to their "good side" often fall on deaf ears.
As far as I know, there is only one thing that works in such cases. Not protests and violence from the people.

Other nations may voice their disdain...
This update describes official discrimination against Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world, with a particular focus on countries where members have been imprisoned for their beliefs. These include countries that USCIRF recommended in its 2020 Annual Report for designation as countries of particular concern, such as Eritrea, Russia, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan; countries USCIRF recommended for the Special Watch List, including Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan; as well as South Korea and Singapore. The report also makes recommendations for U.S. policy.

...but, we have seen how that's going with the attack on Ukraine.
Pharaoh's don't give much attention to threats, and complaints about what you think.

 

[nPeace]

It could be seen that way.

There is another way of seeing it, consistent with scripture?
I'd be interested in hearing that. Could you post it in this thread.

 

[Brian2]

There is another way of seeing it, consistent with scripture?
I'd be interested in hearing that. Could you post it in this thread.

Revelation has been interpreted in many ways. I hear that one method people have used is to look around in the world and try to fit the current events etc into what we read in Revelation. Over the years these interpretations have been seductive for many and seemed correct but have proved to be wrong.
I have not settled on one way to interpret Revelation, but there are others.

 

[nPeace]

Revelation has been interpreted in many ways. I hear that one method people have used is to look around in the world and try to fit the current events etc into what we read in Revelation. Over the years these interpretations have been seductive for many and seemed correct but have proved to be wrong.
I have not settled on one way to interpret Revelation, but there are others.

I have heard a lot of those too, but they usually are not consistent with the scriptures.
That's the important thing - to present an understanding that you can support scripturally.
If it turns out to be wrong, at least you tried, and you endeavored to use the sciptures to guide your understanding.

Are there any that you found that seem to be keeping in line with scripture? How about the one I posted here? Is that out of line with scripture, do you find?

 

[Brian2]

I have heard a lot of those too, but they usually are not consistent with the scriptures.
That's the important thing - to present an understanding that you can support scripturally.
If it turns out to be wrong, at least you tried, and you endeavored to use the sciptures to guide your understanding.

Are there any that you found that seem to be keeping in line with scripture? How about the one I posted here? Is that out of line with scripture, do you find?

I don't go through all the interpretations to see. I use other aspects of the scriptures to determine true beliefs.
JWs seem to major on end times prophecy and refuse to admit error when they are obviously wrong. (eg) changing the definition of a generation etc

 

[nPeace]

I don't go through all the interpretations to see. I use other aspects of the scriptures to determine true beliefs.
JWs seem to major on end times prophecy and refuse to admit error when they are obviously wrong. (eg) changing the definition of a generation etc

This forum is not for debates. My answer is here.