A god can't logically judge you, not even if you have free will

[CarlinKnew]

Choice follows from desire. This is a fact you cannot escape. You choose according to what you desire. Yes, this means when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, his desire to be altruistic was stronger than his desire to live, and when you skip the ice cream to go exercise, your desire to be healthy was stronger than your desire to have some sweets.

Desire follows from _____. Fill in the blank. Depending on your worldview -- free will or determinism -- you might believe that your desires arise freely, because they appear in your soul without cause. On the other hand, you might believe that your desires are the result of your genetically programmed body deterministically interacting with the environment.

Neither of these worldviews justifies a god holding you accountable for your actions. Regarding determinism, the reasons are obvious and I won't list them. A god can't logically deem you responsible for your actions if you have free will either, and the reasoning is just as obvious to me as in the case of determinism. According to free will:

Choice follows from desire.
Desire arises in the soul without cause.

Therefore, you are choosing according to desires that you did not cause. How can a god reasonably hold you accountable for that?

 

[Skwim]

A god can't logically deem you responsible for your actions if you have free will either, and the reasoning is just as obvious to me as in the case of determinism. According to free will:

Choice follows from desire.
Desire arises in the soul without cause.

Therefore, you are choosing according to desires that you did not cause. How can a god reasonably hold you accountable for that?

And this is why the believer requires a will free of desire (deterministic cause). Without it the whole concept of sin/salvation goes up in smoke. Christians, among others, MUST believe in free will in order for their religion to make sense. There is no second option.

 

[JustAsking]

And this is why the believer requires a will free of desire (deterministic cause). Without it the whole concept of sin/salvation goes up in smoke. Christians, among others, MUST believe in free will in order for their religion to make sense. There is no second option.

Which is interesting if you consider that a "master plan" and "free will" are mutually exclusive.

What if Bob was meant to do something great in the "master plan" and I run him over with my car because I wanted that Big Mac NOW!

Maybe I'm just ignorant of what those two things mean, and I hope so. Because, it has made no sense to me ever since I first heard of the "master plan".

 

[Breathe]

A god can't logically judge you, not even if you have free will

Sounds good to me.

 

[Riverwolf]

That's fine, but then how can ANYBODY judge ANYBODY?

If this is the case, how can judges and juries hold criminals accountable for their actions?

 

[JustAsking]

That's fine, but then how can ANYBODY judge ANYBODY?

If this is the case, how can judges and juries hold criminals accountable for their actions?

In a society there needs to be simple rules and punishments for not following them. Such as not kidnapping children. Not robbing people/places. etc.

Maybe there is a God that judges you in the afterlife, but that's mostly irrelevant. While you're here on earth, living in a society, you need to follow rules. You aren't judged to be "good" or "bad", you're merely judged for your ability to follow the rules man made for man to follow.

 

[PolyHedral]

Which is interesting if you consider that a "master plan" and "free will" are mutually exclusive.

What if Bob was meant to do something great in the "master plan" and I run him over with my car because I wanted that Big Mac NOW!

Maybe I'm just ignorant of what those two things mean, and I hope so. Because, it has made no sense to me ever since I first heard of the "master plan".

Nonono, your running Bob over would be part of the plan.

 

[JustAsking]

Nonono, your running Bob over would be part of the plan.

I see you're joking.. However, I see that being a real response. Wouldn't that mean it makes no difference what I do? That God's master plan is always being followed?

Wouldn't that also mean that I really don't have free will to change things? It's all determined?

Free will is the ability to change outcomes.
Master Plan is the steadfast following of the steps outlined to reach a desired goal.

You can't have both.. IMO.

 

[Riverwolf]

In a society there needs to be simple rules and punishments for not following them. Such as not kidnapping children. Not robbing people/places. etc.

Maybe there is a God that judges you in the afterlife, but that's mostly irrelevant. While you're here on earth, living in a society, you need to follow rules. You aren't judged to be "good" or "bad", you're merely judged for your ability to follow the rules man made for man to follow.

That's fine.

But if God exists(which this argument assumes), and there's more to existence than this life, then we need to take into account the metaphysical realm.

If that turns out to be true, and if God wrote a set of rules that we have to follow, then those rules transcend all the realms, physical and metaphysical, and thus He can judge us based on our ability to follow those rules. I mean, isn't that the basis of all laws, religious or secular?

 

[JustAsking]

That's fine.

But if God exists(which this argument assumes), and there's more to existence than this life, then we need to take into account the metaphysical realm.

If that turns out to be true, and if God wrote a set of rules that we have to follow, then those rules transcend all the realms, physical and metaphysical, and thus He can judge us based on our ability to follow those rules. I mean, isn't that the basis of all laws, religious or secular?

First, I'd submit, through all the translations and "telephone game" over the centuries, that we don't know what his rules are.

However, lets throw that out and just say we're arrogant enough to assume we know all the rules.. Are you suggesting we ignore the "physical world" rules whenever they come into conflict with the presumed metaphysical world rules?

If you had two laws, one physical, one metaphysical, which would you follow? Which do you think God would want you to follow?

If our civilization took a huge hit, say from an asteroid and our civilization dropped down to 10,000 people. Also assume for genetic diversities sake, we setup a rule where we all needed to procreate with as many people as possible, would you sleep with your neighbors wife (assuming your neighbors saw the need and allowed it)?

 

[Riverwolf]

First, I'd submit, through all the translations and "telephone game" over the centuries, that we don't know what his rules are.

Of course. ^_^

However, lets throw that out and just say we're arrogant enough to assume we know all the rules.. Are you suggesting we ignore the "physical world" rules whenever they come into conflict with the presumed metaphysical world rules?

If you had two laws, one physical, one metaphysical, which would you follow? Which do you think God would want you to follow?

Well, that would depend on what God's law says on the matter.

If God's law says to put His law over whatever law humanity set in place, and if I knew beyond any doubt that this was, in fact, God's true law, and I had reason enough to trust that God knows what He's doing, then I'd follow what He says.

Though, do understand, I don't believe in a God who writes political-like rules. ^_^

If our civilization took a huge hit, say from an asteroid and our civilization dropped down to 10,000 people. Also assume for genetic diversities sake, we setup a rule where we all needed to procreate with as many people as possible, would you sleep with your neighbors wife (assuming your neighbors saw the need and allowed it)?

I think that if such a system were in place, we wouldn't even have single-couple marriages. But, let's assume that we still did, and my neighbor allowed me to sleep with his wife for the sake of genetic diversity, and I followed God's rules and knew what he was talking about, and if there had been a long-standing rule about sleeping with other peoples' wives in the Rulebook, I'd take a look at that particular rule and see what it's context is, and determine whether or not it still applies in this situation.

 

[Skwim]

That's fine, but then how can ANYBODY judge ANYBODY?

If this is the case, how can judges and juries hold criminals accountable for their actions?

We can't help but do so. As judges and juries we all operate under the illusion of free will and are caused to hold criminals accountable for their actions. We can no more choose to find someone guilty as choose to find them not guilty.

 

[CarlinKnew]

That's fine, but then how can ANYBODY judge ANYBODY?

If this is the case, how can judges and juries hold criminals accountable for their actions?

Good question.

Logically, we need a justice system if we want to survive in a society. We need to confine criminals in order to protect innocent civilians, even if we understand that the prisoners are not responsible for the desires that guided their choices. Unlike a god, the justice system did not bring future criminals into existence, nor does it have godlike powers to solve all problems.

 

[JustAsking]

Of course. ^_^



Well, that would depend on what God's law says on the matter.

If God's law says to put His law over whatever law humanity set in place, and if I knew beyond any doubt that this was, in fact, God's true law, and I had reason enough to trust that God knows what He's doing, then I'd follow what He says.

Though, do understand, I don't believe in a God who writes political-like rules. ^_^



I think that if such a system were in place, we wouldn't even have single-couple marriages. But, let's assume that we still did, and my neighbor allowed me to sleep with his wife for the sake of genetic diversity, and I followed God's rules and knew what he was talking about, and if there had been a long-standing rule about sleeping with other peoples' wives in the Rulebook, I'd take a look at that particular rule and see what it's context is, and determine whether or not it still applies in this situation.

You shall not commit adultery

Would that be a breakable rule?

 

[Riverwolf]

You shall not commit adultery

Would that be a breakable rule?

What was the world like when that rule was given?

 

[JustAsking]

What was the world like when that rule was given?

Are you saying it no longer applies? When did we cross into "10 commandments are no longer valid"?

Edit: I realize you follow the Hindu faith, but for the sake of argument...

 

[Riverwolf]

Good question.

Logically, we need a justice system if we want to survive in a society. We need to confine criminals in order to protect innocent civilians, even if we understand that the prisoners are not responsible for the desires that guided their choices.

Right.

Unlike a god, the justice system did not bring future criminals into existence,

That's debatable... but it's also a different subject.

nor does it have godlike powers to solve all problems.

We were assuming that particular God-concept? I thought we were simply talking about a God who wrote some rules and judges, not necessarily an omnipotent God. After all, you didn't specify that we were talking about a specific God-concept.

 

[Riverwolf]

Are you saying it no longer applies? When did we cross into "10 commandments are no longer valid"?

Well, if you really want to get technical, the 10 Commandments are only for Jews, not the rest of the world; that's the Noahide laws. However, adultery is in that one, as well.

So, we ARE specifically talking about the Abrahamic God, now?

Okay, then. Reform and Reconstructionist Jews believe individuals can choose which parts of the Torah they wish to follow. I know of a Rabbinical process that determines whether or not a Torah law still applies.

The very first commandment in the Torah is "Be fruitful and multiply." I think if the human race got to such a point where sexual promiscuity became a necessity just to survive, that commandment would once again come into play.

 

[CarlinKnew]

That's debatable... but it's also a different subject.

Haha, well the justice system didn't create the universe, but yeah let's move on.

We were assuming that particular God-concept? I thought we were simply talking about a God who wrote some rules and judges, not necessarily an omnipotent God. After all, you didn't specify that we were talking about a specific God-concept.

Right, no need to get specific.

So we need a justice system in order to survive. If you can somehow come up with some god concept that is similar to our justice system in that regard, it might make sense, but that's a long shot. All the popular god concepts are subject to my argument though.

 

[Riverwolf]

Right, no need to get specific.

So we need a justice system in order to survive. If you can somehow come up with some god concept that is similar to our justice system in that regard, it might make sense, but that's a long shot.

Well, from my understanding, ALL justice systems that have ever been created have had their basis in survival(of life or an organization), whether religious or not.

All the popular god concepts are subject to my argument though.

At least, the law-making ones. ^_^