A god can't logically judge you, not even if you have free will

[CarlinKnew]

Well, from my understanding, ALL justice systems that have ever been created have had their basis in survival(of life or an organization), whether religious or not.

Indeed but the (imaginary) justice systems of the afterlife, as referred to by popular religions, are not about survival. They are about punishing or rewarding when survival is no longer an issue.

At least, the law-making ones. ^_^

Yep

 

[Riverwolf]

Indeed but the (imaginary) justice systems of the afterlife, as referred to by popular religions, are not about survival. They are about punishing or rewarding when survival is no longer an issue.

Well, the Torah doesn't even speak of an afterlife, so I don't think it's even an issue in the Torah.

From what I've read of the Torah, you either follow those rules, or get destroyed by God's wrath. So, in that sense, they're very much about survival.

 

[CarlinKnew]

And this is why the believer requires a will free of desire (deterministic cause). Without it the whole concept of sin/salvation goes up in smoke. Christians, among others, MUST believe in free will in order for their religion to make sense. There is no second option.

But choice follows from desire, necessarily. Even in the case of free will, in which desires arise without cause, sin/salvation still goes up in smoke.

 

[logician]

That's fine.

But if God exists(which this argument assumes), and there's more to existence than this life, then we need to take into account the metaphysical realm.

If that turns out to be true, and if God wrote a set of rules that we have to follow, then those rules transcend all the realms, physical and metaphysical, and thus He can judge us based on our ability to follow those rules. I mean, isn't that the basis of all laws, religious or secular?

Which god? Which set of rules? The definitions of these vary tremendously from one society to another.

 

[Riverwolf]

Which god? Which set of rules? The definitions of these vary tremendously from one society to another.

I know. In this case, it doesn't matter.

I'm speaking about law-making God-concepts in general.

 

[ChristineES]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I have self control over my body and over what I do.

And this is why the believer requires a will free of desire (deterministic cause). Without it the whole concept of sin/salvation goes up in smoke. Christians, among others, MUST believe in free will in order for their religion to make sense. There is no second option.

Yet there are a lot of Christians who don't believe in free will. How do you assume they keep their faith?

 

[ChristineES]

As for my last post, I said I had control over my desires. Since I am not better than any of you, then I am sure that you could have control over your desires. If someone is unable to control his desires, then he or she is either handicapped in some way, he or she was never taught self control, and maybe some other reasons.

 

[Midnight Pete]

A god can't logically judge you, not even if you have free will

That sounds like really bad theology.

 

[CarlinKnew]

As for my last post, I said I had control over my desires. Since I am not better than any of you, then I am sure that you could have control over your desires. If someone is unable to control his desires, then he or she is either handicapped in some way, he or she was never taught self control, and maybe some other reasons.

In order to choose to control one of your desires, you need to desire to do so. Take the ice cream or exercise example in the original post. You might desire to have some ice cream, but a stronger desire to be healthy. Choice follows from desire, necessarily.

 

[CarlinKnew]

That sounds like really bad theology.

Do you have an argument?

 

[sojourner]

Choice follows from desire. This is a fact you cannot escape. You choose according to what you desire. Yes, this means when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, his desire to be altruistic was stronger than his desire to live, and when you skip the ice cream to go exercise, your desire to be healthy was stronger than your desire to have some sweets.

Desire follows from _____. Fill in the blank. Depending on your worldview -- free will or determinism -- you might believe that your desires arise freely, because they appear in your soul without cause. On the other hand, you might believe that your desires are the result of your genetically programmed body deterministically interacting with the environment.

Neither of these worldviews justifies a god holding you accountable for your actions. Regarding determinism, the reasons are obvious and I won't list them. A god can't logically deem you responsible for your actions if you have free will either, and the reasoning is just as obvious to me as in the case of determinism. According to free will:

Choice follows from desire.
Desire arises in the soul without cause.

Therefore, you are choosing according to desires that you did not cause. How can a god reasonably hold you accountable for that?

To borrow Indigo Montoya's wisdom: "I don't think it means what you think it means."

We're not judged by our desires. We're judged by our actions. Even Paul says that he does what he does not want to do. Babies will stick their fingers into outlets because they think it's interesting. It's a desire. Adults (who are not on hallucinogens) don't follow that desire because they've matured. If a baby sticks its finger into an outlet, the judgment for that act will be swift and memorable.

When we grow spiritually, we come to understand that "what we want" may not always be "what is best for us." Paul tells us that "all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial."

God judges according to our actions. What that judgment is becomes clear as we suffer the consequences of our immature actions.

 

[jtartar]

Choice follows from desire. This is a fact you cannot escape. You choose according to what you desire. Yes, this means when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, his desire to be altruistic was stronger than his desire to live, and when you skip the ice cream to go exercise, your desire to be healthy was stronger than your desire to have some sweets.

Desire follows from _____. Fill in the blank. Depending on your worldview -- free will or determinism -- you might believe that your desires arise freely, because they appear in your soul without cause. On the other hand, you might believe that your desires are the result of your genetically programmed body deterministically interacting with the environment.

Neither of these worldviews justifies a god holding you accountable for your actions. Regarding determinism, the reasons are obvious and I won't list them. A god can't logically deem you responsible for your actions if you have free will either, and the reasoning is just as obvious to me as in the case of determinism. According to free will:

Choice follows from desire.
Desire arises in the soul without cause.

Therefore, you are choosing according to desires that you did not cause. How can a god reasonably hold you accountable for that?

CarlinKnew,
Let's do a little ratiocination. Would you admit that the creator of everything, who is Almighty, Omniscient, and Eternal, has the right to decide the course that a person should take??? Rom 9:20,21, Job 40:2. Most rational people would say that a creator has the right to decide what his creation should do.
God has not arbitrarily made laws for mankind to obey!!! Every law that God has made has been for the GOOD OF MANKIND, Deut 10:12,13, Ps 32:8,9, Isa 48:17,18.
God knows what will happen if a person starts out on a wrong course. Man does not know what the future of his actions now, will bring ,later, Jere 10:23. God knows what will happen later so He warns us with commandments, so we will not go on a course leading to death or some other serious problem.
It is interesting to read what God has said about His help. Consider Prov 2:1-16, 3:5,6, 2Pet 3:9.
Then consider what will happen to those who refuse to follow God's guidence, Micah 5:8, Deut 30:11,14-20, Rom 3:5,6.
There is no one who does not sin, so people who want to please God Pray that He will forgive us on the basis of Jesus' Ransom Sacrifice. Even though we cannot be perfect, we are not to make a PRACTICE of the same sins. If we do there is NO sacrifice for us, Heb 10:26,27.
We are actually enticed by our own desires, but with God's help we can overcome our wrong desires, James 1:13-15, Col 3:1,2,5,6, Eph 5:1-6.
One last point; Could God bring about a paradise earth if He allowed people who will not obey Him continue to cause problems???
The truth is: We have been created with a free will. Does that mean that we should decide to disobey, just because we can, even though disobeying will bring us trouble??? The smart use of free will is to listen to the ONE who has your best interests at heart, and knows what is best for you. Mankind has been following the course he wants for over 6,000 years. That has brought us to the brink of annihilation.
The Bible says that God's word is alive and powerful, Heb 4:12,13. If mankind had been teaching what the Bible says over this 2,000 years since Jesus was here, this world would have been getting to be a better place to live in every day. The exercising of freewill is not good if you do not know what to do for your own safety.

 

[PolyHedral]

We're not judged by our desires. We're judged by our actions. Even Paul says that he does what he does not want to do. Babies will stick their fingers into outlets because they think it's interesting. It's a desire. Adults (who are not on hallucinogens) don't follow that desire because they've matured.

They don't ignore the desire; The desire disappears entirely because they understand the negative consequences. Nobody wants to harm themselves, so they will not want anything that leads to harm.

Similarly, there might be things Paul would prefer not to have to do, but, in a sense, he wants to do them so that he can avoid the negative consequences of not doing them.

 

[Zadok]

Choice follows from desire. This is a fact you cannot escape. You choose according to what you desire. Yes, this means when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, his desire to be altruistic was stronger than his desire to live, and when you skip the ice cream to go exercise, your desire to be healthy was stronger than your desire to have some sweets.

Desire follows from _____. Fill in the blank. Depending on your worldview -- free will or determinism -- you might believe that your desires arise freely, because they appear in your soul without cause. On the other hand, you might believe that your desires are the result of your genetically programmed body deterministically interacting with the environment.

Neither of these worldviews justifies a god holding you accountable for your actions. Regarding determinism, the reasons are obvious and I won't list them. A god can't logically deem you responsible for your actions if you have free will either, and the reasoning is just as obvious to me as in the case of determinism. According to free will:

Choice follows from desire.
Desire arises in the soul without cause.

Therefore, you are choosing according to desires that you did not cause. How can a god reasonably hold you accountable for that?

You are wrong on many points. Our experience is that we can learn good from evil. Assuming that we are intelligent and can learn from our experience we will by our experience adapt ourselves to ether enjoy and prefer good or evil.

Because our experience occurs under a cloud of ignorance – not knowing the future and the results of our choices, it is possible that as we learn more of the difference between good and evil we can repent and change (intelligently modify our behavior) our evil choices or we can continue as you say – “according to our initial desires”.

Your understanding of being judged by G-d (a very intelligent individual) makes bad assumptions. It appears that you do not see G-d as able or intelligent enough to realize where you “fit” in and will be most happy according to the choices you have learned to enjoy making.

Zadok

 

[Erebus]

Choice follows from desire. This is a fact you cannot escape. You choose according to what you desire. Yes, this means when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, his desire to be altruistic was stronger than his desire to live, and when you skip the ice cream to go exercise, your desire to be healthy was stronger than your desire to have some sweets.

Desire follows from _____. Fill in the blank. Depending on your worldview -- free will or determinism -- you might believe that your desires arise freely, because they appear in your soul without cause. On the other hand, you might believe that your desires are the result of your genetically programmed body deterministically interacting with the environment.

Neither of these worldviews justifies a god holding you accountable for your actions. Regarding determinism, the reasons are obvious and I won't list them. A god can't logically deem you responsible for your actions if you have free will either, and the reasoning is just as obvious to me as in the case of determinism. According to free will:

Choice follows from desire.
Desire arises in the soul without cause.

Therefore, you are choosing according to desires that you did not cause. How can a god reasonably hold you accountable for that?

So when God throws you into a lake of eternal Hellfire you're justified in calling him unreasonable? I guess that's some small comfort.

 

[JustAsking]

So when God throws you into a lake of eternal Hellfire you're justified in calling him unreasonable? I guess that's some small comfort.

I refuse to believe there is a God that would exist of whom would be considered compassionate and loving while also condemning millions, if not billions, to a fate such as that.

And for what? Offenses ranging from the truly despicable all the way to simply not believing?

The main reason I can see millions choosing to believe would simply be out of fear. That is simply something I would never subscribe to.

 

[Walkntune]

Choice follows from desire. This is a fact you cannot escape. You choose according to what you desire. Yes, this means when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, his desire to be altruistic was stronger than his desire to live, and when you skip the ice cream to go exercise, your desire to be healthy was stronger than your desire to have some sweets.

Desire follows from _____. Fill in the blank. Depending on your worldview -- free will or determinism -- you might believe that your desires arise freely, because they appear in your soul without cause. On the other hand, you might believe that your desires are the result of your genetically programmed body deterministically interacting with the environment.

Neither of these worldviews justifies a god holding you accountable for your actions. Regarding determinism, the reasons are obvious and I won't list them. A god can't logically deem you responsible for your actions if you have free will either, and the reasoning is just as obvious to me as in the case of determinism. According to free will:

Choice follows from desire.
Desire arises in the soul without cause.

Therefore, you are choosing according to desires that you did not cause. How can a god reasonably hold you accountable for that?

Desire does not rise without cause.

 

[Erebus]

I refuse to believe there is a God that would exist of whom would be considered compassionate and loving while also condemning millions, if not billions, to a fate such as that.

And for what? Offenses ranging from the truly despicable all the way to simply not believing?

The main reason I can see millions choosing to believe would simply be out of fear. That is simply something I would never subscribe to.

The concept of Hell was a medieval scare tactic and little else. There is a lot of support for the theory that The Bible didn't originally teach eternal hellfire and that the words "Sheol" and "Gehenna" have been mistranslated over the years.
Of course I don't believe in the God of the Bible anyway, but the evolution of hell over the centuries is fascinating.

 

[JustAsking]

The concept of Hell was a medieval scare tactic and little else. There is a lot of support for the theory that The Bible didn't originally teach eternal hellfire and that the words "Sheol" and "Gehenna" have been mistranslated over the years.
Of course I don't believe in the God of the Bible anyway, but the evolution of hell over the centuries is fascinating.

Agreed.. It makes perfect sense as a great "do good or else" way of enacting law/punishment to those who were all but out of reach of the authorities of the time.

"Crap, we can't possibly stop all the people from doing wrong.. So lets say God will damn you for eternity if they don't follow our "laws".. Brilliant!"

 

[Skwim]

But choice follows from desire, necessarily. Even in the case of free will, in which desires arise without cause, sin/salvation still goes up in smoke.

As Walkntune noted in post #37, "Desire does not rise without cause." The bottom line is that everything we do, including our thoughts,
is caused, which makes the notion of choice, as in free choice, an illusion. We may think we freely choose A over B, but the fact is we go to
A because _____________________ . And whatever fills in the "because" is the cause that prevents us from going to B, a cause over which we have no control.