A god can't logically judge you, not even if you have free will

[sojourner]

They don't ignore the desire; The desire disappears entirely because they understand the negative consequences. Nobody wants to harm themselves, so they will not want anything that leads to harm.

Similarly, there might be things Paul would prefer not to have to do, but, in a sense, he wants to do them so that he can avoid the negative consequences of not doing them.

Ok...
Keep going...
Of course they no longer have the desire -- they've matured, as I said. That's what it's about -- maturing such that the bad desires go away. But just having the desire doesn't provide an electric shock. One actually has to place one's finger in the socket. And when one performs that act, there's a 110v judgment.

 

[ChristineES]

In order to choose to control one of your desires, you need to desire to do so. Take the ice cream or exercise example in the original post. You might desire to have some ice cream, but a stronger desire to be healthy. Choice follows from desire, necessarily.

I was raised by my then non-religious parents to have control: Wanting something doesn't mean you need it. Learning to say no to yourself if you want something that is not very good for you. Such as only having 2 scoops of ice cream instead of eating the entire quart.
We have desires, yes, but we can say no to ourselves and use some self discipline- whether we have religion or don't have religion.

 

[CarlinKnew]

We're not judged by our desires. We're judged by our actions.

Where in my argument did I state otherwise?

Even Paul says that he does what he does not want to do.

Impossible. Rather, he has multiple competing "wants", and the stronger "want" wins. This is the nature of choice. Maybe Paul doesn't want to brush his teeth, but his stronger desire, to have healthy teeth, wins.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Wall of text with biblical notations isn't very appealing, but I'll try and pick through it.

CarlinKnew,
Let's do a little ratiocination. Would you admit that the creator of everything, who is Almighty, Omniscient, and Eternal, has the right to decide the course that a person should take??? Rom 9:20,21, Job 40:2. Most rational people would say that a creator has the right to decide what his creation should do.

No. Might doesn't make right.

God has not arbitrarily made laws for mankind to obey!!! Every law that God has made has been for the GOOD OF MANKIND, Deut 10:12,13, Ps 32:8,9, Isa 48:17,18.

I don't really want to get into that.

I couldn't stomach the rest of your post, sorry. If you can make a clear concise argument I'll respond.

 

[tomato1236]

Choice follows from desire. This is a fact you cannot escape. You choose according to what you desire. Yes, this means when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, his desire to be altruistic was stronger than his desire to live, and when you skip the ice cream to go exercise, your desire to be healthy was stronger than your desire to have some sweets.

Desire follows from _____. Fill in the blank. Depending on your worldview -- free will or determinism -- you might believe that your desires arise freely, because they appear in your soul without cause. On the other hand, you might believe that your desires are the result of your genetically programmed body deterministically interacting with the environment.

Neither of these worldviews justifies a god holding you accountable for your actions. Regarding determinism, the reasons are obvious and I won't list them. A god can't logically deem you responsible for your actions if you have free will either, and the reasoning is just as obvious to me as in the case of determinism. According to free will:

Choice follows from desire.
Desire arises in the soul without cause.

Therefore, you are choosing according to desires that you did not cause. How can a god reasonably hold you accountable for that?

Huh. Sounds like you've solved it. Now you can sin with a clear conscience.

 

[CarlinKnew]

You are wrong on many points. Our experience is that we can learn good from evil. Assuming that we are intelligent and can learn from our experience we will by our experience adapt ourselves to ether enjoy and prefer good or evil.

So we are the products of our experiences? Are you arguing for determinism?

Because our experience occurs under a cloud of ignorance – not knowing the future and the results of our choices, it is possible that as we learn more of the difference between good and evil we can repent and change (intelligently modify our behavior) our evil choices or we can continue as you say – “according to our initial desires”.

Yes, and the desire to change your behavior, from where did it arise? Is it the result of your biological-machine-of-a-body interacting with the environment deterministically, or did it arise uncaused as in the free will argument?

 

[CarlinKnew]

So when God throws you into a lake of eternal Hellfire you're justified in calling him unreasonable? I guess that's some small comfort.

I don't believe in any gods. I'm pointing out the flawed logic of followers of popular religions.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Desire does not rise without cause.

Go on...

 

[CarlinKnew]

As Walkntune noted in post #37, "Desire does not rise without cause." The bottom line is that everything we do, including our thoughts,
is caused, which makes the notion of choice, as in free choice, an illusion. We may think we freely choose A over B, but the fact is we go to
A because _____________________ . And whatever fills in the "because" is the cause that prevents us from going to B, a cause over which we have no control.

That's an argument against free will (which I agree with), but this thread isn't about arguing against free will. It's showing that even with free will, a god's judgment is illogical

 

[CarlinKnew]

I was raised by my then non-religious parents to have control: Wanting something doesn't mean you need it. Learning to say no to yourself if you want something that is not very good for you.

And you will only "say no to yourself" if you desire to do so. It's still a desire, as I've been trying to get across.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Huh. Sounds like you've solved it. Now you can sin with a clear conscience.

Do you have an argument?

 

[tomato1236]

Do you have an argument?

Do I need an argument?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Choice follows from desire. This is a fact you cannot escape. You choose according to what you desire. Yes, this means when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, his desire to be altruistic was stronger than his desire to live, and when you skip the ice cream to go exercise, your desire to be healthy was stronger than your desire to have some sweets.

Desire follows from _____. Fill in the blank. Depending on your worldview -- free will or determinism -- you might believe that your desires arise freely, because they appear in your soul without cause. On the other hand, you might believe that your desires are the result of your genetically programmed body deterministically interacting with the environment.

Neither of these worldviews justifies a god holding you accountable for your actions. Regarding determinism, the reasons are obvious and I won't list them. A god can't logically deem you responsible for your actions if you have free will either, and the reasoning is just as obvious to me as in the case of determinism. According to free will:

Choice follows from desire.
Desire arises in the soul without cause.

Therefore, you are choosing according to desires that you did not cause. How can a god reasonably hold you accountable for that?

For starters, you define freewill as a soul that has desires that pop up freely. You then go on to build on that premise. My only challenge before I address other parts of your thread is to support this portrayal of freewill. If freewill even exists, in all account and arguments for it's existence is far more substantial than a soul that has desires that "pop" into existence. Freewill is still influenced by a myriad of factors, and if logic can run it's due course would find free will at it's true end, of existing as nothing more than choices arising from a myriad of factors, which can hardly be considered free.

 

[Walkntune]

Go on...

What you hold onto consciously effects desires.You can hold onto or release conscious thought as you choose.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Do I need an argument?

Well, this is a debate thread, so if you don't have an argument, kindly move on.

 

[CarlinKnew]

For starters, you define freewill as a soul that has desires that pop up freely. You then go on to build on that premise. My only challenge before I address other parts of your thread is to support this portrayal of freewill. If freewill even exists, in all account and arguments for it's existence is far more substantial than a soul that has desires that "pop" into existence.

That is the only complete definition of free will that I've ever come across. And it's coherent. If you have another definition, share it.

Freewill is still influenced by a myriad of factors, and if logic can run it's due course would find free will at it's true end, of existing as nothing more than choices arising from a myriad of factors, which can hardly be considered free.

So, you're a determinist?

 

[CarlinKnew]

What you hold onto consciously effects desires.You can hold onto or release conscious thought as you choose.

Mhmm, and why do you choose to "hold onto or release a conscious" thought? You desire to do so.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

That is the only complete definition of free will that I've ever come across. And it's coherent. If you have another definition, share it.

So, you're a determinist?

First, I did define freewill, and it's ultimate demise. Point being your thread is based on faulty framework about freewill and logically makes any discussion awkward at best.
So to move your discussion forward, I'll choose determinism and ask, why can't God judge me?
Do you fall back on a malevolent being at that point?

 

[CarlinKnew]

First, I did define freewill, and it's ultimate demise.

Not being malevolent. I'm trying to understand you. You say freewill has a demise, so you are a determinist, correct?

Point being your thread is based on faulty framework about freewill and logically makes any discussion awkward at best.

You say you defined free will but I honestly do not see a definition in your post. Treat me as if I'm slow. What is your definition of free will?

So to move your discussion forward, I'll choose determinism and ask, why can't God judge me?
Do you fall back on a malevolent being at that point?

Why can't a god judge you according to determinism? Because you are simply a link in a causal chain.

 

[Walkntune]

Mhmm, and why do you choose to "hold onto or release a conscious" thought? You desire to do so.

OK. What part of someone chooses to let go of all conscious desires?