A good atheist goes to hell, but a bad Christian goes to heaven?

[InvestigateTruth]

Faith through works, I'd say. Works are good but worthless w/o faith IMO.

It would be the other way around. Faith is good, but meaningless without deeds. For it is the deeds that manifests the faith, not the faith that manifests the deeds:

“he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” 3:21 John

 

[Midnight Pete]

It would be the other way around. Faith is good, but meaningless without deeds. For it is the deeds that manifests the faith, not the faith that manifests the deeds:

“he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” 3:21 John

Ohhh, that's embarassing.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Actually, maybe, it's better to be said this way: The deeds show the true faith, not just to say; I believe but act differently. Is it possible that someone believes in something but his deeds be different?

Is That why there are tests?


" For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things." 2 CORINTHIANS 2:9 NKJ

 

[Eisenstein]

You can only do good because of god. If you have lead a good life it was the will of God and by not accepting him you have doomed yourself. All humans are natural sinners without god would only sin.

So if you lead a good life without a belief in God, then it was due to the will of God, and doesn't count as a good deed; but if you did so with a belief in God, then was it not still due to God's will, and hence doesn't count as a good deed in hereafter? There is some serious logical inconsistency in your claim. Also, how do you back up the statement that all humans would only sin without God? Does it even make sense?

 

[Midnight Pete]

Actually, maybe, it's better to be said this way: The deeds show the true faith, not just to say; I believe but act differently. Is it possible that someone believes in something but his deeds be different?

Is That why there are tests?


" For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things." 2 CORINTHIANS 2:9 NKJ

You can't earn your way into heaven with good works or anything else, for that matter. Only by your faith can you get into heaven. Only by accepting the gift that was offered to you by Jesus. No one really deserves that gift, but it's offered to us anyway.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You can't earn your way into heaven with good works or anything else, for that matter. Only by your faith can you get into heaven. Only by accepting the gift that was offered to you by Jesus. No one really deserves that gift, but it's offered to us anyway.

Can you give a reference from the scripture please?

 

[Midnight Pete]

Can you give a reference from the scripture please?

Romans 3:28-30 (New International Version)
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.


Romans 4:5 (New International Version)
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.




Romans 5:1 (New International Version)

1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ...

Romans 11:6 (New International Version)

6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.


Galatians 2:16 (New International Version)

16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

 

[BIG D]

I totally agree with you...another point, people have totally different experiences/environments/upbringing/physical make-up/ etc...so it also seems unfair to some that if they ''sin'', it's their fault and not because of the differences above...so, I don't believe in free will or sin....

 

[Midnight Pete]

So if you lead a good life without a belief in God, then it was due to the will of God, and doesn't count as a good deed; but if you did so with a belief in God, then was it not still due to God's will, and hence doesn't count as a good deed in hereafter? There is some serious logical inconsistency in your claim. Also, how do you back up the statement that all humans would only sin without God? Does it even make sense?

On the whole, is man a sinful race or a virtuous race? Fallen or righteous? Humans only sin with God, much of the time. Even religious people are no exception to the rule of human depravity.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You can't earn your way into heaven with good works or anything else, for that matter. Only by your faith can you get into heaven. Only by accepting the gift that was offered to you by Jesus. No one really deserves that gift, but it's offered to us anyway.

Thanks for the references.

My understanding based on Bible is this:

There is "Spiritual deeds" and there is "works of Laws". It is very important to realize these are with reference to 2 different things.

The works of the laws are referred to the certain laws that relate to material things and worldly, or daily life. For example circumcising. Even as it was said:

If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:25

It is clear and evident that these laws although are good, but not fundamentals. As they are not really spirituality.

However, there are "deeds". The deeds are the fundamentals, as they are reflection of spirituality. Even as He said;

"If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Rom 8:14
and again:

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3:21

and again:

"God who will render to every man according to his deeds" Rom 2:7

 

[URAVIP2ME]

A good atheist goes to hell but a really bad christian who says he has repented his sins goes to heaven. Does this seem right to you?

Can you think of anyone who did not sin but ended up in hell?

Jesus, according to Acts [2vs27,31], went to hell.
So what is the' biblical hell'?
Jesus likened death to sleep.- John 11vs11-14
Jesus learned that condition of the dead from the Hebrew OT Scriptures:
[Ecc 9v5; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Daniel 12vs2,13]

Several verses show what will happen to people at the time of Jesus 'glory' so to speak, when Jesus involves himself into mankind's affairs.
Matt 25vs31,32.
We are not talking about those living judged as wicked going to the biblical hell or gravedom, but about those wicked being destroyed or annihilated forever such as those of Psalm 92v7.

As for those that are already dead before Jesus talks action Romans [6v7] says the dead are freed or acquitted of sin. Not meaning they are innocent but as a judge can pardon a person so the crime [sin] charges no longer stick.

Unless someone has committed the unforgivable sin they will have a resurrection. -Acts 24v15.

Apparently those destroyed by Jesus words [Rev 19vs11,14,15;Isa 11v4]
are not judged worthy of a resurrection, but for the most part Jesus shed blood covers sins. Many have lived and died that never heard of Jesus or the good news of God's kingdom, so in the resurrection during Jesus millennial reign over earth they will have the opportunity to decide. In other words, their resurrection will be earthly or on earth with the prospect of living forever on earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"God who will render to every man according to his deeds" Rom 2:7

As for those already dead, in the resurrection during Jesus millennial reign over earth, each will be judged on deeds done 'after' his resurrection.
Deeds done 'before' death can make it easier or harder to do what is right in God's eyes after one is resurrected.

 

[Father Heathen]

There is no such thing as the former.

As what, a good atheist? So sipping on Jebus juice is a prerequisite for honor and integrity?

 

[Midnight Pete]

Jesus, according to Acts [2vs27,31], went to hell.

Acts 2:27-31 (New International Version)


because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’ “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

All this signifies is that Jesus the Messiah was not abandoned to the realm of the dead (hell?) and that his body did not decompose while entombed. This passage above doesn't seem to say anything definitive about Jesus descending into hell after his death and before his ressurection. Jesus may not have descended into hell; Scripture is unclear on this. It depends on how the Apostles' Creed is translated.

Interesteing sidenote: An incorrupt body was believed to be the sure sign of holiness much later when the church was well-established.

 

[Midnight Pete]

As what, a good atheist? So sipping on Jebus juice is a prerequisite for honor and integrity?

Honour and integrity have nothing to do with "Jebus juice."

Ditto for "the Eucharist Challenge."

 

[idea]

A good atheist goes to hell but a really bad christian who says he has repented his sins goes to heaven. Does this seem right to you?

That's not what the Bible teaches, the Bible teaches we are all accountable for acting on what we know, those who know more are accountable for more, and are held to a higher condemnation for failure...

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
(New Testament | Luke12:47 - 48)

 

[Eisenstein]

On the whole, is man a sinful race or a virtuous race? Fallen or righteous? Humans only sin with God, much of the time. Even religious people are no exception to the rule of human depravity.

The words 'sinful' and 'virtuous', as with 'fallen' and 'righteous', only make sense if we assume the validity of certain religious ideas.
If you're asking me whether humans are more prone than not to commit morally objectionable acts, then I suggest you word it better.

 

[idea]

[/color]

On the whole, is man a sinful race or a virtuous race?

Children are innocent.
Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
(New Testament | Mark 10:14)

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little achildren, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall ahumble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
New Testament | Matthew 18:2 - 5


sin is a learned behavior... we "fall" from perfection, gain knowledge of good and evil, and then through the atonement, we can regain an exalted state wiser than we once were.

 

[Renji]

Not all that carries the word 'christian' or the name of Christ in their group could actually make it to heaven.

Matthew 7:21-23- Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[InvestigateTruth]

As for those already dead, in the resurrection during Jesus millennial reign over earth, each will be judged on deeds done 'after' his resurrection.
Deeds done 'before' death can make it easier or harder to do what is right in God's eyes after one is resurrected.

We do not believe in a physical resurrection. We believe that's just a misinterpretation of the Bible.
We believe in a spiritual resurrection, which means a spiritual guidance, whenever a Manifestation appears from the heaven of will of God.
Note also, that the Judgment Day, which is the same as resurrection Day, is totally different from the concept of Spiritual Growth.

Those who died, would live up to whatever spiritual growth they were able to achieve in this world. There is no return back to world.