David Young
Member
"There is no such thing as the pure, obvious message of the Bible alone."
Would anyone in this forum seriously claim that this is false?
Would anyone in this forum seriously claim that this is false?
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A ground-zero position when talking about the Bible
- Thread starter David Young
- Start date
exchemist
Veteran Member
I wouldn't, but that is chiefly because the claim seems to make a false assumption, viz. that there is a single message in the bible, whereas there seem to be many.
However I would agree that the sola scriptura approach to Christianity appears problematic, due to the inescapable need for interpretation.
101G
Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all.
these words of God will be nothing to the hearer unless they are taught by the Holy Spirit, God himself. We have an anointing, scripture, 1 John 2:20 "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." and the reason, 1 John 2:26 "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you." 1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
]if one is in JESUS, the Christ, he is taught of God.... "ALL THINGS. 1 Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." 1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:15 "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." 1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."
so the bottom line, read the bible with our TEACHER, the Holy Spirit, and EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE IS ALL ONE NEED. for the Holy Spirit will Give Revelation to every scripture. in the bible.
hope that help.
PICJAG, 101G.
Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him." Psalms 12:6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Psalms 119:140 "Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it."
these words of God will be nothing to the hearer unless they are taught by the Holy Spirit, God himself. We have an anointing, scripture, 1 John 2:20 "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." and the reason, 1 John 2:26 "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you." 1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
]if one is in JESUS, the Christ, he is taught of God.... "ALL THINGS. 1 Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." 1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:15 "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." 1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."
so the bottom line, read the bible with our TEACHER, the Holy Spirit, and EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE IS ALL ONE NEED. for the Holy Spirit will Give Revelation to every scripture. in the bible.
hope that help.
PICJAG, 101G.
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exchemist
Veteran Member
Curiously, none of the passages you quote claim that the bible is the word of God.
101G
Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 32:1 "Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth."Deuteronomy 32:2 "My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:" 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
PICJAG, 101G.
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
Except when Paul wrote 2 Timothy there was no New Testament, so there's that.
101G
Well-Known Member
First thanks for the reply, second you ERROR, listen, Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" THIS IS WHAT PROPHECY IS ALL ABOUT. it has already happen in God's eyes. let me put it in laymans terms.... the Old Testament is the New Testament hidden.... hence where "prophecy" comes in at. and the the New Testament is the Old testament "REVEALED".
PICJAG, 101G.
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
Can you prove any of this without circular reasoning?
exchemist
Veteran Member
Hmm. The Deuteronomy one makes no claim regarding scripture. It does not say what form this "doctrine" takes, whether oral or written, let alone associate it with any specific writing.
St Paul's letter to Timothy does, however. But what it says is that scripture is inspired by God and is thus profitable to study. It does not say it is the word of God.
This I think is a crucial distinction. The scriptures were written by men, at certain points in history and, however inspired they may have been, it is only reasonable to expect that some of what they wrote, and assumed, was constrained by the time and place of writing.
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101G
Well-Known Member
the Word of God is his Logos, and this Logos, was in the OT, supportive scripture, 1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:" 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
PICJAG, 101G.
101G
Well-Known Member
yes,
yes, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
see that word "beginning", it is the Hebrew word,
H7225 רֵאשִׁית re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.
1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.
2. (specifically) a firstfruit.
[from the same as H7218]
KJV: beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Root(s): H7218
there is the KEY, in , TIME, PLACE, RANK, and ORDER. and the ORDER you know, or should know is the "First", and the "Last" the same one person.
PICJAG, 101G.
I don't know. It seems that in the "beginning" (Genesis 1) there was "darkness" and then "light" was added. This being the base/law, upon which creation required and sprang. The "darkness" representing lack of light, represented by the serpent, the father of lies, and the "light" representing enlightenment (1 John). One chooses one or the other, and the consequences flow from such a choice. It seems simple and obvious to me, but then I am neither "young" nor "David".
It is possible but not plain or obvious. Too many well meaning people disagree on the meaning for it to be obvious.
Ooh this is a chance for me to write a small sermon isn't it?
our scripture for today is:
(1Jo 1:8 NIV) 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Here is something difficult to perceive: good people aren't good. A good person has flaws. If you have no flaws you are a liar. This situation doesn't satisfy, because the reverse is not true. A flawed person can be evil, and an evil person can be honest.
This creates a problem: How can we tell good people from evil ones? Nobody likes this arrangement. Nobody can tell who is good or evil, because we all have flaws. It is annoying, scary. How is anyone to be sane if we have to watch our backs all the time?
Sometimes it is too much to handle. When life is tough and people seem mean or we are ashamed or afraid or weakened, then we want to know who is nice and who is a backstabber. That is when clouds block our eyes, and we dream of a world of good vs evil with clear boundaries. We attack the wrong people, maybe even ourselves.
And that is when we start pointing fingers. "Oh my God you are trying to drive me crazy. Stop doing that." "I'm not doing anything" "You know that annoys me. I told you it annoys me, you backstabber." "Yes, I am trying to drive you crazy, because I have been driven crazy and have no sense of reality, myself. Torturing you comforts me in the storm of confusion in which I exist." And thus ends the sermon. And the moral is: don't ask me questions.
2 Timothy 3:15:16 is referring to "holy writings" from "childhood". 2 Timothy would not be included into any "holy writings" from childhood mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:15. It would be referring to the Law and the prophets, for which Yeshua came to fulfill (Matthew 5:17), such as choosing the Judas Iscariot, to fulfill Zechariah 11:12-13, and choosing the "worthless shepherd", Peter to fulfill Zechariah 11:16-17.
If Gen 1 began with the words 'Once Upon a Time' we be interpreting quite differently.
exchemist
Veteran Member
No, the "Logos" refers to Christ, the second Person of the Trinity, not written words in scripture: Logos (Christianity) - Wikipedia
The bible alone comes from the split all was left behind but the bible. Many Protestant churches now have tradition and history. The only ones I see as Bible only are Baptist each Church can be separate from the others depending on who is in charge and most are Bible only they are not really organized like others.
exchemist
Veteran Member
Yes, that's a point. The original sola scriptura denominations from the Reformation have now acquired a body of theology and teachings to supplement their understanding of the bible, just as the Catholic church had at the time of the Reformation. And a good thing too, since without a body of doctrine you just get random pastors making things up as they go.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The Bible as I see it, is mostly a Catholic invention where they had some fragments and filled in the gaps.