Because whatever evil is perpetrated by corporations, it pales in comparison to governmental carnage....
- Wars
- Mass starvation
- Pogroms
- Imprisonment
- Oppression
- Public service announcements
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A Letter to Donald Trump
- Thread starter ZenMonkey
- Start date
- Wars
- Mass starvation
- Pogroms
- Imprisonment
- Oppression
- Public service announcements
Monk Of Reason
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I could forgive the first five...but that sixth one...is the final straw.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
one more question. if there were no abortions, how do we deal with all the unwanted children who woud be left to starve and suffer other effects from neglect. there are not enough foster parents or people who want to adopt to handle all of them. they would become wards of the state and grow up in porverty and neglect
I do think about this. I agree that the status quo causes a great deal of damage in many ways. I want to see things change. But there are some issues that cannot be reduced to cash, and this is decidedly one. It is also a new moral challenge that ancient scripture is not up to dealing with.
People do have sex. They just do. But the medical technology making it possible to safely and secretly eliminate the consequences of irresponsible sex is new. It gets confused with medical needs. We do need, as a society, to deal with this. But we don't, for an assortment of reasons.
Not the least of which is religionists and conservative politicians who prefer to use the problems for personal reasons. Rather like the black activists who would be lost and unemployed if the USA ever moved beyond the racism of the past, and so don't really want that to happen. Similarly, antiabortion people firmly oppose any public policy that has a realistic likelihood of reducing the issue, such as early and graphic sex ed, free and easily available birth control, and the government imposing on people's freedoms.
Tom
ZenMonkey
St. James VII
Yes, human rights is an area that all humans should be involved. I was speaking of value not just rights. I agree on your second point. I asked when human lives begin to have value. You dodged the question. With the upcoming election and given what's at risk being the hard stance against abortion by most GOP candidates, I'd suggest you should be considering the issue as well. If you want to retain your right to choose it's a necessity. Human rights is a subject worthy of discussion. I'm a pro choicer. I think the issue is important. Roe vs. Wade can be over turned and will be if the pro choice crowd continues the path it's currently on. I'd like to prevent that. Don't be surprised when you lose your rights as a result of your unwillingness to discuss the issue openly and honestly.
ZenMonkey
St. James VII
Well, that is the OP.
I am commonly irked by the poor arguments on this subject. It is important to me. Yours was one. If you want to talk about something else what is it?
Tom
It will never be all humans....just the ones old enuf to vote & opine on the subject.
I don't recall you asking it of me.
It's an easy one to answer......
I don't know.
As I've oft said, there will be an uneasy consensus establishing some demarcation
point......say perhaps 24 weeks. That seems a practical balance of competing interests..
Whatever it is or will be, It's neither right nor wrong.....it's just the adopted standard.
And because I don't know, I cannot establish it.
I do consider it.
(Why do so many think that only those who agree with them give issues any thoughtful analysis?)
I'm unwilling to discuss it "openly & honestly"?
Why say you that?
Parenthetical aside....
I find it odd that even some of the most vaunted posters here will openly tell me I'm dishonest.
I've never once said anything I didn't believe.
Tis a puzzlement.
I can only surmise that some people just react to disagreement with anger & conflict...
....especially the ones who mistake me for a conservative. (I'm not even allowed to
post in their forum.)
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ZenMonkey
St. James VII
For starters the many fictitious and hostile arguments that are irrelevant to the discussion thrown against people who actually care about both sides. How about we talk about the irresponsible behavior that leads to the loss of human lives ... The out right denial and sugar coating the harsh reality of abortion, the unwillingness to discuss the issue honestly by many in the pro choice crowd, the suppression of responsible behavior and the indirect encouragement of irresponsible behavior, the indirect encouragement of accountability avoidance, and the fact that all this threatens not only the human rights of woman but the human rights of everyone else in this nation also? If this issues current status were working very well at all this wouldn't be a topic in the electoral process. It would be settled. It isn't. What's the problem? The problem is denial and the unwillingness of many to discuss the issue honestly and openly. This lack of serious engagement will only help ensure the right to choose will be stripped from woman. There's many reasons to overturn Roe vs. Wade. One of which is the ultimate and unequaled power it grants a particular gender. Woman seem to believe it's their right and authority to determine the value of human life alone. They insist it is their right to terminate unborn human life at their sole discretion. Talk about a power trip. Woman are essentially playing God. God forbid anyone call them out on what is actually going on. Furthermore, these same woman insist they should have the right to be irresponsible and selfish and not be held accountable for actions that result in the deliberate termination of human life. I love woman, but peel the skin from many and there's absolutely no beauty left. These types have the best part of themselves terminated before they're allowed to even take a first breath.
If Roe vs. Wade is ever overturned abortion will no longer be safe, but by some (many) woman taking advantage of their liberties, they are forcing this very real threat on all woman. All that's needed to keep this from happening is more responsible behavior by them and their partners. God forbid!! At the rate it's going, Roe vs. Wade will be overturned much sooner than later. And all some people seem to want to do is play the victim card, be hostile, throw about accusations of misogyny, and try to appeal to emotion when this doesn't need to happen at all. But no. These types insist on being irresponsible. They insist it's their right to be selfish and irresponsible, even when they would deliberately have a human life snuffed as a result of that irresponsible behavior. That mindset is vile, ugly, and destroys any beauty a woman may have had at all. Their sex lives are threatening human rights when they terminate pregnancies that could have been prevented absolutely. They have no argument aside from abortion being legal, which is what people like them are threatening by being irresponsible about the issue. They are threatening the right to choose. They take advantage of it. This scope of power should not be granted to anyone without very real limitations. Give an inch and they want 1000 more miles. There's no real communication or cooperation.
Pregnancy can be prevented absolutely. Mutual masturbation, anal sex, toys, oral sex, and a host of other possibilities that tend to get woman off harder than typical vaginal sex are all very valid options. Abstinence is just one method of preventing a pregnancy. The others involve a willingness to explore human sexuality. While I support pro choice, I do not support a woman's right to terminate human life at their sole discretion. It gives them unequaled power to determine the fate of all humanity. Who lives and who dies - Who's valuable and who's not. We may as well go the Gattaca route and breed out inferior genome traits. Hitler's vision revitalized. Hell, the more I think about it, I'm beginning to understand the bigger picture. Maybe Roe vs. Wade needs to be overturned after all. No one should be given such unequaled power in life particularly when people are becoming so damned haphazard about it. :sigh:
I have considered starting a thread on this exact subject. Not abortion per se, but the really bad arguments made.
This subject is important to me. I am not sure I could even explain why I get so emotional about it, but I do. So rotten arguments, whether for or against, set me off in a big way. The bad science, logical fallacies, sexism, emotional appeals, semantics, etc. get to me. So does vague appeals to Scripture I know doesn't exist and hare brained schemes like your tax thing and such.
I find it impossible to carry on a conversation.
Tom
ZenMonkey
St. James VII
The tax wasn't well thought out perhaps, but something needs to be done certainly. Otherwise we're going to end up with a lot of woman getting back alley abortions, more deaths, and worse. As it is unequaled power and authority over every future unborn human have been granted to even the selfish, irresponsible, and haphazard woman among us. How does this not concern people? The future of all humanity and the power to determine who lives and dies are at their sole discretion. Who lives and who dies - Who's valuable and who's not? We may as well go the Gattaca route and breed out inferior genome traits. At least then we'd know there were a future for the human race, but that route has been deemed unethical.
Go figure.
Monk Of Reason
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Banning abortions or having abortions be taxed ends up causing this. Know what helps with this? Options to have safe medical abortions to all women as a medical right.
If I chose not to have a child because I wore a condom how is that any worse than a woman getting an abortion? Its still a "potential life". Is it the act of becoming a zygote? That matters little if your base argument is "we can't determine who lives and dies before they are born" because that already is what we do. Births and childbearing isn't a spontaneous occurrence. You would just rather kill the child even earlier. You want to kill the child moments after I spew it from my loins rather than a little later.
ZenMonkey
St. James VII
Because individual human development doesn't begin until after fertilization. Sperm isn't equivalent to a human life. An unfertilized egg isn't equivalent to a human life. It takes both to begin the process of life for each individuals personal human development. You may not view a zygote to be a human. You may not view a tadpole to be a frog, or a caterpillar to be a butterfly. Zygote is a term used for a human in early stages of development. Tadpole is a term used for a frog in early stages of development. The same is true for a caterpillar.
Monk Of Reason
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
A zygote isn't equivalent to a human life.
A fetus isn't equivalent to a human life.
I could go on and on and on. The point in which you draw the line is arbitrary.
I don't view a zygote as an independent organism with rights. That is the point. "potential life" is a meaningless statement.
ZenMonkey
St. James VII
Indulge me for a minute if you will. A little about me: I was robbed of my future when sent to a juvenile detention center for accidentally catching my school on fire. My education suffered, and my character severely questioned. I had plans of becoming a physical therapist. I was an honor student prior to this event, I was beaten relentlessly in the detention center, and my grades suffered greatly after. Needless to say I was hard pressed to be accepted to a reputable University after my basic education was completed. I ended up going to a technical college and became a HVAC technician. My girlfriend, whom I had met on the job, had my unborn child killed, despite my opposition. It devastated me. I literally broke. Soon after I broke down, I started self medicating, which ended up becoming a life long battle. My future was taken from me because I threw a cigarette in the garbage when my teacher walked in the bathroom. While robbing potential futures aren't criminal, taking human life is. At least it is for those considered to be persons. The entire issue boils down to the ideal that humans should have basic rights and when humans establish person hood. When are we considered to be unique individual human beings and valuable? At conception? Zygote stage? Fetal stages? At birth? Human rights are central to the discussion, as are human ethics, and the principles of human justice. With that said, I'd like to present a question. At what stage does the ideal of human rights have value?
0. As an ideal?
(seed)
1. After the ideal has been conceptualized?*
(fertilization/germination)
2. When the ideal has made some developmental progress?*
(roots)
3. After the ideal has made substantial developmental progress and has gained momentum?*
(stems and leaves)
4. When the ideal has nearly completed its developmental progress and is reaching completion?*
(flowers)
5. After the ideal has been given birth, becoming a very real part of our own human existence?*
(produces fruit)
An individuals human development begins immediately after the fertilization of the cell. As I stated prior, "zygote" is a term used for a human person in early stages of development. The many different stages we all go through entail varied abilities and appearances. We grow, we develop, we gain different abilities, and our appearance changes throughout our entire life span. When we were born, we had far less abilities and our appearance was far different than now. When we became toddlers our abilities increased and our appearance further changed, and on to our teenage years, adulthood, middle age, to senior citizen and until we die. Our individual human life began the moment we were conceived. We remain in constant and ongoing processes of development throughout our entire life span. Our life began when a sperm fertilized a cell. Human person is the zygotes inherited quality.
With that said, and despite the absolute and unequaled power woman hold to terminate every potential and unborn human life that could possibly ever be given life in this nation, my understanding of what constitutes an individual human person is what changed my position to pro life. I didn't change my stance when my unborn child was denied birth and terminated, nor when I realized the reality that a power no human entity should hold has been granted to ~ 160,000,000 humans in this nation. I changed my position when I realized that the cluster of cells implanted to the uterus are individual persons beginning their journey of life. I'm not a religious man. Rest assured, I am not viewing this issue in terms of morality, but rather in terms of human ethics, principle and law, human rights, and human justice.
I used the ideal of human rights in this discussion for one reason. To encourage others to pinpoint inherent value. At what point does the ideal of human rights become valuable? Please answer. Being that human rights are central to this issue, at what point does human life become valuable? Science has established that humans begin their individual journey of life the moment of conception. If we fail to recognize these beginnings as human person-hood, we risk to err on the side of discrimination based on the sole reasoning of them not being able to think like us, feel like us, reason like us, breath, look, or act like us. What we're are essentially doing is discriminating against early individual human persons based on them not being like ourselves, or based on where we ourselves are on our own personal journey's.
Monk Of Reason
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I don't understand what point it was that you were trying to make with your anecdote. Nothing about it has to do with the issue at hand. You feel the fact that your girlfriend chose not to ruin her body and possibly her life with a child she did not want? Have you ever looked at it from her perspective on that? Do you blame her or rather the abortion for your substance abuse?
I disagree with your comparisons to the plants but those aside the medical view is that human beings are human beings when they have the ability to live outside of the womb.
But lets take this another step. Lets say that they are considered humans. I would still support the right to choose. Why? Well as a man you can never understand fully what it means to carry the life of someone else. Neither can I. But lets take this example of a person who suddenly and inexplicably latched onto you. They cannot survive without you. They are a person but you will be highly inconvenienced and will change your life forever. Should you be allowed to choose not to have that burden put on you? Or would it be okay for someone to randomly simply latch onto you and feed off of not only your body but your future as well. You keep talking about the future being stolen and how terrible that is but do you see how the future can be stolen from women?
The point in which a person has inherent value and rights by law and ethics as determined by the United States Government, the American Medical Association and its voting citizens is when it is able to reside outside the womb.