a letter to the muslims

[Scott1]

no problem Peace
i figure in small steps the brothers of Abraham can bring peace!:162:

Amen to that! Bless you both.

Scott

 

[Peace]

no problem Peace
i figure in small steps the brothers of Abraham can bring peace!:162:

Thanks be to God!!

 

[Peace]

Amen to that! Bless you both.

Scott

Thanks SOGEPP!!! May our dear God bless us all and be pleased with us, ameen!!


Peace

 

[croak]

Where'd chuck go?

 

[chuck010342]

Wow. I honestly thought you could have come up with something better than this.

I said lets do them ONE at a time I have plenty others.

Anyway here we go. I will post the verses for those of you who are reading along, verse 16:4 says:

"He has created man from a sperm drop;......"

Verse 96:2 says:

"He created man from alaqah..."

Now for my response. These two verses are merely just describing two different stages in which man is created, they both occure and are both true. If we read further into the Qur'an we find them to be listed one after the other, showing that these are not two different ways in which man is created but rather two different stages in the process of man's creation. In verse 40:67 is says:

"He it is who created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot (alaqah), then brings you forth as a child...."

Let me apply this to another situation.
I created a cake.
I created the cake from flour.
I created the cake from eggs.
I created the cake from sugar.
And so on.....
Now all of these statements about the cake are true by themselves or all together are they not?

Hmmm your right I see how thats not a countradiction.

For this reason I see no contradiction between the verses. However, I'm sure Chuck will still find a contradiction because he is being closed minded and has already made up his mind about there being contradictions in the Qur'an and about the whole of Islam in general.

I just said that you are correct. Therefore I'm wrong. If you continue to use adhominen reasoning then our conversation is finished.

 

[chuck010342]

Oh I see that you are so determined and sure of what you are saying though you claimed that you want to know the truth, but in fact as other members said you just want to attack our religion.

If I wanted to attack your religion I would blow up Mecca. I have no desire to do any such thing.

I would say that what you are saying is untrue, and the fact that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is a a true Messenger of God is true 100%.You should know that we Muslims are so sure 100% about our religion and have no doubt whatever of it's truthfulness.

You believe that he is and I believe that he is not. Which one of us has the truth, is what I want to know

You know Chuck, I would love to see the signs of disapointment on your face in the day of Judgment when you will know the Truth and when Prophet Jesus peace be upon him will be innocent of what you claim and what you believe is true. Then it would be too late to repent.

If Jesus Christ on the day of judgement (or any other day) comes to me and says "Islam is true and your bible is false" I will believe it. I will take nobody and I mean nobodys word, unless that man is Jesus.

I am sure that there are no contradictions in the words of God, and I am so surprised at what you claim as contradictions. Salam anwered you.

And Salam did a good Job, but I'm not done yet

Quran was revealed in Arabic language. If you take the Quran in Arabic and go Wherever you go in the world you will find the same copy with no letter added or taken out of it, it is preserved as it had first revealed more than 1400 years ago.

If thats true then I don't see it as a miracle, but rather preservation.

The translation is another thing. The Quran is translated in many different languages in order for the non Arabs to understand it and understand its meaning. But you should know that while worshipping and praying to God we do and must recite the Quran in Arabic and no other language.

I heard that there is a perfect copy of the Quran in heaven written in Arabic. Is God showing particularity towards a single culture/language?

 

[Sunstone]

What's your next contradiction, Chuck? (Frubals to you for conceding that you were wrong about the first!)

 

[chuck010342]

Both artificial, and swayed by opinion. Faulty by mere existence.

I would have to disagree with you there

Whatever you call yourself, you follow Jesus, the same as those evil men did. Therefore, whether or not you are a "Christian" is only a matter of semantics. Does the mere fact that some people in a religion are evil mean that all are? *Recalls the case where a man raped dozens of young women and claimed he did it for Jesus*

Those "evil men" do not follow christ they only think they did.

If I said I was the queen of England would you believe that? Its the same way with the Crusaders

 

[chuck010342]

So, "the light" lies? Now thats interesting.

What are you talking about?

I could give you a whole page of contradictions in the Bible, if you'd like, chuck.

I can do the same for the Quran however if you can show me how they countradictions I have are not true and I can do likewise for yours then we would both agree that countradictions do not exsist in either books.

 

[chuck010342]

Where'd chuck go?

I'm right here. Things said on this thread do not belong here and I do not need to be saying things back to them. Like what you said about tolerance of Muslims. I tolerant them but I don't agree with them. WHen you say something like that It belongs in the Discussion threads NOT in the debate forums. ( I hope a Mod will agree with me)

 

[chuck010342]

What's your next contradiction, Chuck? (Frubals to you for conceding that you were wrong about the first!)

Who was the first Muslim.

Muhummed? (39:12)

Moses?(7:143)

Abraham?(2:132).

These give countradictory accounts as to who was the first to believe.

 

[chuck010342]

Amen to that! Bless you both.

Scott

Let me Clarify something I Tolerate Muslims. "true tolerance means “putting up with error”—not “being accepting of all views.” We don’t tolerate what we enjoy or approve of—like chocolate or Bach’s music. By definition, what we tolerate is what we disapprove of or what we believe to be false and erroneous. Furthermore, tolerance presupposes an adequate grasp of what another person believes—as well as a knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of such belief. Actually, if disagreement didn’t exist, then tolerance would be unnecessary."

Borrowed agian from www.rzim.org

 

[chuck010342]

no problem Peace
i figure in small steps the brothers of Abraham can bring peace!:162:

"Before Abraham was I AM"

 

[chuck010342]

Oh happy day!!
no contradicitions in the bible huh?
Which came first beast or man?
GEN 1:25 And G-d made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and G-d saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And G-d said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the L-RD G-d said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the L-RD G-d formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof

How did Judas die? 2 different accounts...
"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

Did Jesus appear to ten, eleven or twelve disciples?
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/11_or_12.html

Has there ever been a just, righteous, good or perfect person?
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/perfect.html

The bible is over 2,000 pages long. I like to Go one at a time. Pick one and I'll show you how it cannot be a countradiction

 

[jewscout]

The bible is over 2,000 pages long. I like to Go one at a time. Pick one and I'll show you how it cannot be a countradiction

How about the lineage of Jesus?

 

[chuck010342]

How about the lineage of Jesus?

what about them?

 

[linwood]

what about them?

They are contradictions.
Explain them and don`t use the old tired "One was Marys" BS

 

[Druidus]

They are contradictions.
Explain them and don`t use the old tired "One was Marys" BS

This may be new to me as well. Could you expand on it in a PM, if Chuck doesn't explain it?

What do you think about Jesus having a wife, and even a child, Chuck?

 

[_salam_]

Who was the first Muslim.

Muhummed? (39:12)

Moses?(7:143)

Abraham?(2:132).

These give countradictory accounts as to who was the first to believe.

Alright, befrore I begin I would like to say to Chuck that I apologize if I came off as being boastful or rude in my response. I would also like to applaud Chuck for looking at my reply with an open mind and especial for admitting that things were not as they seemed. Props to you, cause I know it's not easy for people to admit when they have made a mistake.

Now back to the issue at hand, I will say right now from the beginning that my response isn't going to be as clear cut as the last one. The reason for this being that two out of the three verses that were put forward are open to interpretation (which I will explain latter on). As you can imagine different interpretations can give very different views on a subject. So here we go, I will once again provide the verses for those of you that are following along.

Verse 2:132 says:
"And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen The Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

This verse obviouslly implies that Abraham (pbuh) was a Muslim and I'm sure this is why Chuck included it.

Verse 7:143 says:
"....When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust, and Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! To Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

Verse 39:12 says:
"And I (Muhammad) am commanded to be the first of those who bow to God in Islam."

Bofore I continue I would like to give a little explanation of the Muslim belief as for who we believe to be the first Muslim. We believe the first Muslim to be Adam (pbuh) and we also believe that all the Prophets (peace be upon them all) from Adam up to Muhammad were Muslim's. Even though these people didn't call themselves Muslim's we believe they were Muslim's in the sense that they believed in the One True God and that they taught the submission to God's will, in other words they called people to follow and obey God.

Now to tackle the issue. I stated before that two of the verse were open to interpretation, these two would be verses 7:143 and 39:12. At a first glance it might appear that there isn't much to interpret from these verses, however, when one looks at them closer we find that there are no specifics stated as to how or who Prophets Moses and Muhammad (pbut) were the first of. How they were the first, might sound kind of weird but I say "how" because in the commentary provided by Yusuf Ali in his Translation of the Meaning of the Qur'an, he interprets these verses to mean not the first in a chronological sense but rather the first, or the most eminent one, in "zeal" and "readiness to suffer for the Cause". I also said "who" because the text doesn't specify who these Prophets (pbut) were the first of. Were they the first of all of mankind in general, were they the first among their own people, their tribes, their families, the fact is that it isn't specified within the text.

At this point we're left with how we should decide to interpret these verses. As I stated earlier Muslim's believe Adam (pbuh) to be the first Muslim. This belief puts a limitation on how a Muslim can now interpret these verses. If the Muslim already believes that Adam (pbuh) was the first Muslim then it makes no sense that he would interpret these verses to mean that Moses or Muhammad (pbut) was now the first Muslim of all time. So a Muslim is not able to interpret these verses in this sense due to the limitation from the basic belief about Adam (pbuh). At this point a Muslim has to find a logical interpretation such as the one provided by Yusuf Ali or that these Prophets (pbut) were the first Muslims of their people/community, which is a perfectly reasonable explanation. Yes, Moses' (pbuh) people were Jews, however, they were extremely ignorant to there religion and didn't exactly follow it or know much about it even after Moses tried to teach them, so I think it's safe to say that this interpretation applies here. As for Muhammad (pbuh) this interpretation applies without a doubt. Now for a non-Muslim, who isn't limited in his interpretation by the beleif about Adam (pbuh), he could have no problem coming up with an interpretation that would be contradictory, but for the Muslim this is not something he can do.

My point is this, being that the verses are open to interpretation there are many things that could be given to explain the verses. I'm sure you would agree that certain verses in the Bible that are open to interpretation could, depending on the interpretation, appear to be contradictory. (Notice that I'm NOT saying that such verses are contradictory or are not contradictory, but rather that depending on the intrepretation they might appear to be contradictory)

 

[chuck010342]

They are contradictions.
Explain them and don`t use the old tired "One was Marys" BS

One of Marys? what do you mean?

I don't see how the different geneologies are countradictory. One Geneology doesn't say that Solomon was the son of David. while another says that David was the son of Solomon.

Luke is greek so I think he traced the linage back to God. Matthew is Hebrew so he traces the linage back to the father of the Hebrews Abraham.