A living Apostle answers the question...

[SoyLeche]

If you're a Christian, I'm a Christian, the Archbishop of Canterbury is a Christian, and the Prophet is a Christian, then we all have the same Christian authority.

No we don't.

It's little use arguing this point anymore. You believe that "authority" means one thing, I believe it means another. We can continue to talk past each other if you like, but I don't see why we should. Like I said, it isn't a defining issue for me anyway.

 

[Polaris]

Show me where in the NT Moroni, golden plates, or Joseph Smith are referred to and we'll talk. Otherwise, don't hold me hostage to the NT.

You're claiming that James was a Bishop. I'm challenging that because I believe the NT teaches James to be an Apostle. Moroni, golden plates, and Joseph Smith are irrelevant to this point.

 

[sojourner]

No we don't.

So, you're saying that I'm wrong?

 

[Polaris]

Not always. Sometimes it leads to enlightenment. Contradiction does not "require" that one party "be wrong." It merely requires a difference of perspective.

Difference in perspective is not equal to contradiction. Differing perspectives can both be right, contradiction cannot.

 

[SoyLeche]

So, you're saying that I'm wrong?

Yes - I believe you are wrong. But I also believe I am using a different definition for "authority" than you are.

 

[Polaris]

People do not preach on their own. They preach by the authority of God, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit moves where it will...not where we will.

If everyone truly preached by the Holy Spirit then doctrines would not contradict each other.

 

[sojourner]

You're claiming that James was a Bishop. I'm challenging that because I believe the NT teaches James to be an Apostle. Moroni, golden plates, and Joseph Smith are irrelevant to this point.

Why is the NT an authority when you want it to be, and irrelevant when you don't want it to be? None of those things are found in the NT, yet you espouse them, because it's part of your Tradition. Just because James is not mentioned by the title "bishop" does not mean that Tradition has not called him by that name. Lack of NT attestation proves nothing...especially in your own paradigm.

 

[sojourner]

Difference in perspective is not equal to contradiction. Differing perspectives can both be right, contradiction cannot.

Sure it is! I can look at an airplane from one perspective and say, "It's wide." You can look at it from a different perspective and say, "It's long." Our perspectives contradict each other, but neither is wrong. They are both right! Airplanes are both wide and long. Both perspectives, though contradictory, lead to enlightnement.

 

[SoyLeche]

Why is the NT an authority when you want it to be, and irrelevant when you don't want it to be? None of those things are found in the NT, yet you espouse them, because it's part of your Tradition. Just because James is not mentioned by the title "bishop" does not mean that Tradition has not called him by that name. Lack of NT attestation proves nothing...especially in your own paradigm.

Probably because James lived at the time and place in which the NT was written. Moroni and Joseph Smith didn't.

It's like saying that Paul wasn't mentioned in the books of Moses, so why should we believe anything he says.

I'm not saying that the NT has everything, but it is everything that we hold authoritative.

 

[Polaris]

Why is the NT an authority when you want it to be, and irrelevant when you don't want it to be? None of those things are found in the NT, yet you espouse them, because it's part of your Tradition. Just because James is not mentioned by the title "bishop" does not mean that Tradition has not called him by that name. Lack of NT attestation proves nothing...especially in your own paradigm.

The NT is always authorative to me, but I don't consider it to be the only authorative scripture.

I'm not just defending my position via a lack of NT attestation alone. I believe the NT provides ample evidence to suggest that James was indeed an Apostle, not a Bishop.

 

[sojourner]

Yes - I believe you are wrong. But I also believe I am using a different definition for "authority" than you are.

What you "believe" has no bearing on whether I am right or wrong. You are not in a position to judge.

I'm allowing you the breathing space to believe that your leaders have authority, because that's what you believe. I believe that my leaders have that same authority. Why can you not allow me the breathing space to believe what I believe? Oh, that's right! I'm wrong.

 

[SoyLeche]

Sure it is! I can look at an airplane from one perspective and say, "It's wide." You can look at it from a different perspective and say, "It's long." Our perspectives contradict each other, but neither is wrong. They are both right! Airplanes are both wide and long. Both perspectives, though contradictory, lead to enlightnement.

Unless you believe that an airplane can't be both wide and long, there is no contradiction here.

If one said "the airplane is ONLY long" and another said "the airplane is ONLY wide" you are getting closer.

If someone says the airplane is "150 ft long and 20 ft wide" and another says the airplane is "100 ft long and 75 ft wide" - then we have a contradiction.

 

[sojourner]

If everyone truly preached by the Holy Spirit then doctrines would not contradict each other.

I don't think the Holy Spirit acts according to if-then logic.

 

[sojourner]

Probably because James lived at the time and place in which the NT was written. Moroni and Joseph Smith didn't.

It's like saying that Paul wasn't mentioned in the books of Moses, so why should we believe anything he says.

I'm not saying that the NT has everything, but it is everything that we hold authoritative.

What about the BOM? Is it authoritative? It's not in the NT.

 

[SoyLeche]

What you "believe" has no bearing on whether I am right or wrong. You are not in a position to judge.

I'm allowing you the breathing space to believe that your leaders have authority, because that's what you believe. I believe that my leaders have that same authority. Why can you not allow me the breathing space to believe what I believe? Oh, that's right! I'm wrong.

I can accept that you believe it. I don't believe they do have authority though. That's the beauty of it - Christians can have different beliefs about just about everything. The only thing I don't believe they can differ in is their belief in the supremacy of Christ.

BTW - I see no reason why you should believe that my leaders have any authority. They do, but you don't have to believe they do.

 

[Polaris]

Sure it is! I can look at an airplane from one perspective and say, "It's wide." You can look at it from a different perspective and say, "It's long." Our perspectives contradict each other, but neither is wrong. They are both right! Airplanes are both wide and long. Both perspectives, though contradictory, lead to enlightnement.

You are speaking in relative terms. I believe doctrinal truth to be absolute and cannot contradict itself. Either true Apostolic succession occurred after the death of the Apostles or it didn't. Our relative perspectives have no bearing on the truth of the matter.

 

[SoyLeche]

What about the BOM? Is it authoritative? It's not in the NT.

And the NT isn't in the OT - your point?

We have different documents and traditions that we hold authoritative too. Amazing what Christians can believe - isn't it?

 

[doppelganger]

This may be a dumb question, but it's been rattling around in my head lately. Why does a member of the LDS church even need an "apostle" if there is direct revelation?

 

[Polaris]

I don't think the Holy Spirit acts according to if-then logic.

My if-then assertion is not describing how the spirit acts. It is asserting the fact that the Holy Spirit comes from God and will not teach doctrines that are contradictory.

 

[sojourner]

Unless you believe that an airplane can't be both wide and long, there is no contradiction here.

If one said "the airplane is ONLY long" and another said "the airplane is ONLY wide" you are getting closer.

If someone says the airplane is "150 ft long and 20 ft wide" and another says the airplane is "100 ft long and 75 ft wide" - then we have a contradiction.

Are you saying that God isn't big enough to be what God needs to be for everyone? That's a contradiction of God's omipotence.