A living Apostle answers the question...

[doppelganger]

You're a little skewed here. We do not assign authority to people. We believe that the authority comes from God, and that that authority is transmitted through human agency, whether individual or systemic. We say that the Church carries the authority of God, and that God calls some people to specially represent the Church. But those people really have no more authority than the rest of us. We do not submit to anyone but God.

Semantics. People have authority. You justify it by saying it's from "God." It's a distinction without a difference. You could justify it on the grounds that the Lady of the Lake, her arm shimmering in the purest samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water . . . thereafter signifying that I should be King, but farcical aquatic ceremonies are no basis for a system of government.

If one believes, for example, that what one particular body "says" rings true for him or her, then that person will adhere to that particular body and follow its particular tenets. But that does not mean that that particular body "right" and others "wrong."

Sure it does. You're confusing subjective assessments with objective "truth." There is no "right" and "wrong" in the absence of someone to assess it.

No. I said that every Christian carries the same authority. I didn't differentiate, as you seem to indicate I did.

And some say that certain "Christians" have more authority, and you are arguing they are wrong. You are doing exactly that about which you are complaining . . .:sarcastic

See my explanation above. The only authority Christians subject themselves to is God's authority.

Unless, of course, they subject themselves to someone else's authority as well.

 

[doppelganger]

What I'm having a hard time with is discovering just where authority comes from, in your opinion. Where does it come from? To whom is it given?

It comes from the individual and it is given to whomever the individual gives it.

 

[SoyLeche]

What I'm having a hard time with is discovering just where authority comes from, in your opinion. Where does it come from? To whom is it given?

From God, to those whom God chooses. It is given by one who already has the authority by the laying on of hands. The authority is useless if God doesn't "bless" the ordination, so to speak.

If you want to understand the LDS view of Authority the Doctrine and Covenants may be useful.

Doctrine and Covenants 121 - specifically verses 34 through the end
Doctrine and Covenants 20 - verses 38-67
Doctrine and Covenants 107 - the whole thing is probably relevant

 

[sojourner]

Nope, but it has a bearing on whether or not I believe they have authority. We are still going around in circles.

You can believe what you wish to believe. But life is not the SoyLeche Show. Your beliefs have no bearing upon whether someone carries God's authority. You may believe that the Pope does not ahve authority, but that does not mean that the Pope does not have authority. You just don't get to make that call. The Pope may very well have authority, but you choose not to recognize it. That's OK! That's why you're LDS!

I just think that it's the pot calling the kettle black. You seem to have a problem with others calling you "not Christian" because of their beliefs. Yet you seem to have no problem with not acknowledging the authority of others because of your beliefs. That's what I have a problem with.

 

[lunamoth]

I think the unavoidable problem here is that one's subjectively chosen authority is then presented as the objectively right authority for everyone else. The conflict does not come from "God" or from "authority," but from the disruption of relationships that occurs when one person tells another that their beliefs are wrong, or lesser than their own.

 

[doppelganger]

You can believe what you wish to believe. But life is not the SoyLeche Show. Your beliefs have no bearing upon whether someone carries God's authority.

Finally! . . .

 

[sojourner]

From God, to those whom God chooses. It is given by one who already has the authority by the laying on of hands. The authority is useless if God doesn't "bless" the ordination, so to speak.

If you want to understand the LDS view of Authority the Doctrine and Covenants may be useful.

Doctrine and Covenants 121 - specifically verses 34 through the end
Doctrine and Covenants 20 - verses 38-67
Doctrine and Covenants 107 - the whole thing is probably relevant

How do you know for sure that God does not "choose" to give it to someone outside the LDS faith?

 

[doppelganger]

I think the unavoidable problem here is that one's subjectively chosen authority is then presented as the objectively right authority for everyone else.

Exactly! That same problem occurs everywhere there is an assertion of "truth." Every. Single. Time.

It's the age old error that underlies the fundamental disruption of human communication - mistaking the signs for the things signified.

 

[doppelganger]

How do you know for sure that God does not "choose" to give it to someone outside the LDS faith?

How do you know for sure that God does not "choose" to give it to someone inside the LDS faith?

 

[SoyLeche]

You can believe what you wish to believe. But life is not the SoyLeche Show. Your beliefs have no bearing upon whether someone carries God's authority. You may believe that the Pope does not ahve authority, but that does not mean that the Pope does not have authority. You just don't get to make that call. The Pope may very well have authority, but you choose not to recognize it. That's OK! That's why you're LDS!

I just think that it's the pot calling the kettle black. You seem to have a problem with others calling you "not Christian" because of their beliefs. Yet you seem to have no problem with not acknowledging the authority of others because of your beliefs. That's what I have a problem with.

I get to make that call for what I believe. How many times do I have to say that? That has no bearing on whether or not you or I are Christian though. There is only one requirement for whether or not someone is a Christian - and beliefs about authority are irrelevant to that requirement.

I have a problem with people calling me "not Christian" because it undercuts the foundation of my belief system. There is no reason anyone should care whether or not I recognize their authority.

Anybody can say that I'm not a "Christian". To do so they are going to have to use a moronic definition of the word though. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[doppelganger]

Personally, I think everybody is "Christian." :yes: Some just don't have the lingo down. :rainbow1:

 

[SoyLeche]

How do you know for sure that God does not "choose" to give it to someone outside the LDS faith?

I don't know. I don't believe he does though. I believe that God is a God of order. He has set forth the order and will not vary from it.

 

[sojourner]

Semantics. People have authority. You justify it by saying it's from "God." It's a distinction without a difference. You could justify it on the grounds that the Lady of the Lake, her arm shimmering in the purest samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water . . . thereafter signifying that I should be King, but farcical aquatic ceremonies are no basis for a system of government.

I think you're still misunderstanding what I'm saying. All God's people have the same authority. I don't have a problem with that. That means that no one can force their will upon another, just because "God told them to." What we submit to is not power of individuals or groups, but the power of God. The rules that we follow and the traditions we espouse give voice to the power of God that we perceive within ourselves. Some perceive it differently than others. That in no way assumes that one is right and another wrong. It's all the same God.

Sure it does. You're confusing subjective assessments with objective "truth." There is no "right" and "wrong" in the absence of someone to assess it.

That's what I'm saying. Just because I'm Episcopalian and that's right for me, doesn't mean that it's right for someone else, for whom it may be right to be Hindu, for example.

And some say that certain "Christians" have more authority, and you are arguing they are wrong. You are doing exactly that about which you are complaining . . .

You're twisting the argument. What some are saying is that certain Christians have no authority. I acknowledge that all do have authority. I'm not saying that their beliefs are "wrong." I'm saying that their beliefs have no bearing on others.

Unless, of course, they subject themselves to someone else's authority as well.

For the Christian, the authority comes from God. Who else is there?

 

[sojourner]

How do you know for sure that God does not "choose" to give it to someone inside the LDS faith?

I never said that God didn't!!! You are misunderstanding me. I have no problem whatsoever with all of the LDS folks having God's authority. Where did you get the idea that I do? I've been arguing all along that everybody who recognizes him or herself as a child of God carries God's authority.

 

[SoyLeche]

I never said that God didn't!!! You are misunderstanding me. I have no problem whatsoever with all of the LDS folks having God's authority. Where did you get the idea that I do? I've been arguing all along that everybody who recognizes him or herself as a child of God carries God's authority.

The part I have a problem with is the part where you say that I have to recognize that everyone has the same authority. That is not a requirement at all.

 

[doppelganger]

You're twisting the argument. What some are saying is that certain Christians have no authority. I acknowledge that all do have authority. I'm not saying that their beliefs are "wrong." I'm saying that their beliefs have no bearing on others.

What authority do "Christians" have? How is that authority limited?

For the Christian, the authority comes from God. Who else is there?

Apostles. :slap:

 

[doppelganger]

I never said that God didn't!!! You are misunderstanding me. I have no problem whatsoever with all of the LDS folks having God's authority. Where did you get the idea that I do? I've been arguing all along that everybody who recognizes him or herself as a child of God carries God's authority.

So if they think they are the only "Christians" with the only real "apostles" that's their prerogative too, right?

 

[sojourner]

I get to make that call for what I believe. How many times do I have to say that? That has no bearing on whether or not you or I are Christian though. There is only one requirement for whether or not someone is a Christian - and beliefs about authority are irrelevant to that requirement.

I have a problem with people calling me "not Christian" because it undercuts the foundation of my belief system. There is no reason anyone should care whether or not I recognize their authority.

Anybody can say that I'm not a "Christian". To do so they are going to have to use a moronic definition of the word though. That's all I'm trying to say.

How does that undercut the foundation of your belief system? Is your belief predicated upon what others think about you?

And there is no reason for you to care whether or not someone thinks you're a Christian.

I think "moronic" is very strong. I would say "narrow." Some Christians have narrow definitions of what it means to be Christian...just as some have narrow definitions of doctrine and authority.

 

[sojourner]

The part I have a problem with is the part where you say that I have to recognize that everyone has the same authority. That is not a requirement at all.

We all recognize our authority as God's authority, whether we are Mormon, Catholic, or Pentecostal. There are not multiple Gods; how can there be any but "the same" authority, if the authority is from the same God?

You just don't get to make the call as to where God bestows God's authority. You can believe what you want, but, once again, your beliefs do not affect God's actions one way or the other.

 

[sojourner]

What authority do "Christians" have? How is that authority limited?

The authority to be children of God. it is not limited.

Apostles.

The apostles have the same authority as everyone else. No more, no less. They, too, can be children of God. What they "have" that the rest of us don't is a specific ministry to which they are called. But that ministry carries no further authority than that which they already have by virtue of their being believers.