A majority of Muslims in England are against free speech, according to a poll

[Mohamed]

Quote: Mohamed "its our land whatever you say"

Well is it,i mean you live in Egypt so how can it be your land,this is the kind of talk you would get from Al Banna Qutb Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood,if you are saying its your land because its an Islamic Waqf then i'm sorry to tell you but it means nothing outside of Islam,Israel is a recognised state,Palestine isn't,it could be if Hamas could state six little words "we recognise Israel as a state".

Quote Mohamed:

so we go for peace but Israel never accept

Really,when did that happen,when have the Palestinians actually seriously sued for peace,i'll be interested in any.

you want them to recognize Israel as a state before they get thier state,lol,this is really funny,how come they recognize Israel as a state while Israel don't accept them to have a state?!!!

and it's our land because we arabs are one thing

and Israel isn't recognised state for us,it's still some gangs till palastine has a state


what is this then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

[Mohamed]

my question to you is this,would it not be better for Hamas to drop the Gun and acknowledge Israels right to exist and really seek a partner in peace instead of the farcical alliance with Fatah.

drop thier guns as peace agreement or as surrender??!!

 

[England my lionheart]

you want them to recognize Israel as a state before they get thier state,lol,this is really funny,how come they recognize Israel as a state while Israel don't accept them to have a state?!!!

Well Israel is indeed a state and was acknowledged as such a long time ago which is history,Palestine however never took the opportunity for statehood,instead it chose the path it has followed for 80 years,a succession of useless leaders and little regard for anyone who identifies themselves as Palestinian,in reality its not about Palestinian people.

and it's our land because we arabs are one thing

Really,the one thing that has been obvious for hundreds of years is the opposite IMO

and Israel isn't recognised state for us,it's still some gangs till palastine has a state

Some Gangs,well those gangs did a damn good job of winning 6 wars,not only that,those gangs turned a piece of barren into an Oasis.

 

[England my lionheart]

drop thier guns as peace agreement or as surrender??!!

Not surrender,i'm not meaning literally because Hamas need their Guns to keep control,all thats required is for Hamas to recognise Israels right to exist,it will not do this and will be a stumbling block to any peace process IMO,if Palestine really wants peace it must lose the Charter/Covenant otherwise Israel would be mad to negotiate anything IMO.

 

[Mohamed]

Some Gangs,well those gangs did a damn good job of winning 6 wars,not only that,those gangs turned a piece of barren into an Oasis.

wars!!,against whom?,Hamas and Hezb Allah,lol,with thier childish rockets,haha
even Hezb Allah won over you lol
you just won 67 war
but then you were punished in 73

but all that is something,and the future is something different,if you can't see that,it would be a real probelm

 

[Mohamed]

Not surrender,i'm not meaning literally because Hamas need their Guns to keep control,all thats required is for Hamas to recognise Israels right to exist,it will not do this and will be a stumbling block to any peace process IMO,if Palestine really wants peace it must lose the Charter/Covenant otherwise Israel would be mad to negotiate anything IMO.

but the 2 state solution already has 2 states inside it
when they sign this agreement that would mean they have recognized Israel
or you want them to recognize Israel without any agreements?

 

[England my lionheart]

wars!!,against whom?,Hamas and Hezb Allah,lol,with thier childish rockets,haha
even Hezb Allah won over you lol
you just won 67 war
but then you were punished in 73

I doubt Hezbollah could win a raffle if it had the only ticket,Hamas and Hezbollah are of little consequence to me in the south of England,we do have Rockets though,Guy Fawkes night and new year,btw you forgot 48 56 and 67.

but all that is something,and the future is something different,if you can't see that,it would be a real probelm

No problem to me,i hope the future is different,i hope Israel and Palestine will be partners in peace but in reality with the ideology of Hamas and their like its not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[England my lionheart]

but the 2 state solution already has 2 states inside it
when they sign this agreement that would mean they have recognized Israel
or you want them to recognize Israel without any agreements?

Lol,do you really think Israel is stupid

 

[Mohamed]

Lol,do you really think Israel is stupid

this is not an answer,what's illogic here?!
recognization ofcourse will come in the agreement
the same that Israel won't recognize Palastine except that time

just answer,or it's clear now who refuses peace?!!

 

[England my lionheart]

this is not an answer,what's illogic here?!
recognization ofcourse will come in the agreement
the same that Israel won't recognize Palastine except that time

just answer,or it's clear now who refuses peace?!!

You want Israel to sit at a table and shake hands with an enemy that will not drop a covenant on Israels destruction,Fatah had a simmilar covenant,at least they had the brains to change theirs,if you want peace with Israel then instead of sacrificing some hapless Martyrs sacrifice Hamas and their charter.

 

[Mohamed]

You want Israel to sit at a table and shake hands with an enemy that will not drop a covenant on Israels destruction,Fatah had a simmilar covenant,at least they had the brains to change theirs,if you want peace with Israel then instead of sacrificing some hapless Martyrs sacrifice Hamas and their charter.

so Israel will choose who should be palastinian and who is not?!
it's clear now for everybody here that you just say that to runaway from any peace agreement,i showed you the link and here it is again Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
all Arabs including hamas accept this
you can accept it or not but don't claim that you want peace until you accept it

 

[England my lionheart]

so Israel will choose who should be palastinian and who is not?!
it's clear now for everybody here that you just say that to runaway from any peace agreement,i showed you the link and here it is again Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
all Arabs including hamas accept this
you can accept it or not but don't claim that you want peace until you accept it

I'm English,i live in the south of England so its of little consequence to me but how can Hamas as a partner of Fatah offer peace.

Article 11 Palestine is sacred(waqf) for all Muslims for all time, and it cannot be relinquished by anyone.

Article 5 Demonstrates it Salifist roots and connections to the Muslim brotherhood. />[17]

Good luck Egypt

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews
(killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The
stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me,
come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of
tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the
Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

This hadith is also from the charter which Meshal (spl) said could not be changed for internal reasons,( bit like the MB really) good luck with peace,of course Israel would be crazy not to shake hands with them

 

[YmirGF]

Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
all Arabs including hamas accept this
you can accept it or not but don't claim that you want peace until you accept it

From your own link, Mohamed.

"Islamist political party Hamas, the elected government of the Gaza Strip, is deeply divided, with most (Hamas) factions rejecting the plan."

The first thing that caught my attention, was this:

The initiative attempts to end the Arab-Israeli conflict, which means normalizing relations between the entire Arab region and Israel, in exchange for a complete withdrawal from the occupied territories (including East Jerusalem)...

Personally, I do not see Israel ever agreeing to put East Jerusalem on the table, nor should they be expected to.

This bit is also telling:

From its inception in 2002, the Initiative deeply divided the organization.[8] As stated before, members of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing, committed the Passover Massacre on same day as the peace Initiative's adoption.[3] At that time, Hamas rejected not only peace with Israel but even negotiations with it.[18] The official administration of Hamas never recognized the Initiative, which alienated it from members of the Arab League, especially Jordan and Egypt.[47]

(Note: Remember, this was Egypt under Muhammad Hosni Sayyid Mubarak, you know, they guy you folks just kicked out of power in Egypt. And you trust an agreement he had a part in?)

One of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' conditions of forming a national coalition government with Hamas after the 2006 election was that Hamas had to recognize the Initiative, but he was unsuccessful.

So again, Hamas would seem to be a major stumbling block here and not just Israel.

Mohammad Raad, head of Hezbollah's bloc in the Lebanese parliament, condemned the peace plan, saying that "[t]his option cannot be promoted in the Arab and Islamic worlds anymore". Hezbollah leader Sheikh Naim Qassem also made similar remarks.[57]

And finally, from the befuddled Obama administration... their part in all this...
On May 6, 2009, Al-Quds al-Arabi, the London-based Arabic language daily, reported that as per a request from U.S. President Barack Obama the Arab League is currently in the process of revising the initiative in an effort to encourage Israel to agree to it. The new revisions include a demilitarization of the future Palestinian state as well as a forfeiture of the Palestinian right of return to Israel proper. According to the revisions, a portion of the refugees would be relocated to the future Palestinian state, and the rest would be naturalized in other Arab countries.[89]

It should be pointed out that very little progress has been made since Obama's representatives inserted themselves into the whole sordid mess.

Given that only Jordan and Egypt have diplomatic ties with Israel, it is a bit rich hearing of this initiative from her less than enthusiastic neighbors. One can well understand the cool and cold receptions the initiative has received from various Israeli leaders.

This hadith is also from the charter which Meshal (spl) said could not be changed for internal reasons,( bit like the MB really) good luck with peace,of course Israel would be crazy not to shake hands with them

No doubt the Israel's still remember Khaybar.

 

[jarofthoughts]

ah,sorry i didn't notice you mean inside Europe
ok,there are somethings,not very big ofcourse,but muslim's bad feelings comes from thier foreign policies in first place

but anyway,France banned scurfs (face cover)

This ban has to do with being able to properly identify people in public places, which, while not explicitly mentioning niqabs (or similar), is a law found in many European countries, including Norway. The law (in Norway) is rarely enforced because very few people actually cover their faces on a daily basis, but it could potentially be used on people wearing niqabs and people wearing masks equally. If such a law includes all kinds of face-coverings and not just those related to Muslim traditions I don't have a problem with it.

Germany banned scurfs (hair cover) in schools!

Many schools, including most schools in Norway, do not permit pupils wearing any form of headgear indoors. This usually pertains to baseball-caps and the like, and while usually ignored, there is no reason why hijabs should be excepted. Again, as long as a law is applied equally I have no problem with it, but as the case is here, hijabs are actually in practice excepted from the rule for some reason, and are thus given special treatment. I see no reason why this should be so.

Switzerland banned minarets of musques!!!

By popular vote (57.5%).
You would do well to note that this ban was opposed by both the Swiss government as well as the parliament, in addition to several non-governmental organisations. Since the ban was implemented there have been no cases to try the legality of it, but many believe it may well be in opposition to the Swiss constitution and that it will fall once a trial is tested in the supreme court.

and in france,they don't get equal chances about everything (as Immigrants not muslims but they are muslims at the end) even France

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

It should be noted though that the above examples pale in comparison of how, for instance Christians and other religious groups, are treated in places like Saudi Arabia (no Christian symbolism or public displays of worship whatsoever), Pakistan (heavily discriminated against in the Pakistani constitution), and Afghanistan (no churches allowed at all).
So perhaps, when asking for cultural and religious tolerance, it might be a good idea to have a look at some of the predominately Muslim countries also.

 

[Mohamed]

I'm English,i live in the south of England so its of little consequence to me but how can Hamas as a partner of Fatah offer peace.

Article 11 Palestine is sacred(waqf) for all Muslims for all time, and it cannot be relinquished by anyone.

Article 5 Demonstrates it Salifist roots and connections to the Muslim brotherhood. />[17]

Good luck Egypt

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews
(killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The
stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me,
come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of
tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the
Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

This hadith is also from the charter which Meshal (spl) said could not be changed for internal reasons,( bit like the MB really) good luck with peace,of course Israel would be crazy not to shake hands with them

hahaha,so Israel refuse peace because we have this hadeeth,right?,say it clear please.
should we change our religion then or what,lol
it's something not connected to MB or Hamas or any other islamists,it's a hadeeth,that means all muslims believe it,but that don't mean we are commanded to fight Israel,it's prophesy,maybe Israel is the one who starts the fight.

and don't forget that Israel's faith (from Nile to Forat)

anyway i thank you because you made it clear that Israel don't seek for peace,whatever the reason....

 

[Mohamed]

From your own link, Mohamed.

The first thing that caught my attention, was thisersonally, I do not see Israel ever agreeing to put East Jerusalem on the table, nor should they be expected to.

This bit is also telling:

(Note: Remember, this was Egypt under Muhammad Hosni Sayyid Mubarak, you know, they guy you folks just kicked out of power in Egypt. And you trust an agreement he had a part in?)


So again, Hamas would seem to be a major stumbling block here and not just Israel.

It should be pointed out that very little progress has been made since Obama's representatives inserted themselves into the whole sordid mess.

Given that only Jordan and Egypt have diplomatic ties with Israel, it is a bit rich hearing of this initiative from her less than enthusiastic neighbors. One can well understand the cool and cold receptions the initiative has received from various Israeli leaders.





No doubt the Israel's still remember Khaybar.

Hamas now accepts 1967 borders
Israel refuses

[youtube]DLgg5iWp9Ro[/youtube]
Israeli PM rejects Obama 1967 border proposal - YouTube


and 1967 borders means eastern jeursalim for Palastinians
and you cought the point,Israel will not put east Jeursalim on the table,niether Arabs and palastinians,there is only one solution for this,to put the city under international control,i don't think both sides would accept that easily but no other solution

but in fact i can't see any peace coming sooner or later

 

[YmirGF]

and 1967 borders means eastern jeursalim for Palastinians
and you cought the point,Israel will not put east Jeursalim on the table,niether Arabs and palastinians,there is only one solution for this,to put the city under international control,i don't think both sides would accept that easily but no other solution

but in fact i can't see any peace coming sooner or later

We agree on that. I see no reason, whatsoever, that Israel should put East Jerusalem on the negotiation table. Frankly, I would not allow the United Nations to manage a Soda Pop stand, let alone a city, and I don't see Israel allowing it either.

The thing is Mohamed, if I offer you a solution that is unacceptable to you, am I really offering you a solution? Am I not actually insulting you by only PRETENDING to offer a solution, when I know that solution would be unacceptable to you?

 

[Mohamed]

We agree on that. I see no reason, whatsoever, that Israel should put East Jerusalem on the negotiation table. Frankly, I would not allow the United Nations to manage a Soda Pop stand, let alone a city, and I don't see Israel allowing it either.

The thing is Mohamed, if I offer you a solution that is unacceptable to you, am I really offering you a solution? Am I not actually insulting you by only PRETENDING to offer a solution, when I know that solution would be unacceptable to you?

but 67 borders isn't like that for Israel
Israel is the one who don't give any acceptable (or near acceptable) solution
just tell me a solution given by Israel?!!!

 

[darkendless]

but 67 borders isn't like that for Israel
Israel is the one who don't give any acceptable (or near acceptable) solution
just tell me a solution given by Israel?!!!

Isn't it only unacceptable because Palestinians won't accept anything unless they get exactly what they want just short of annihalating Israel?

 

[Mohamed]

Isn't it only unacceptable because Palestinians won't accept anything unless they get exactly what they want just short of annihalating Israel?

which solution you mean?