A Muslim speaks out for reform in Islam

[YmirGF]

You should practice what you preach. It's best to respond to people at the level which they interact with you, and I was just responding to your "I'm older and wiser" post. Usually such things are self evident, for example Sunstone, but if people feel the need to say so, then they should get a proper response.

Either you are as I think, or you're purposely dumbing down the conversation and pretending you believe I want "silence" to frustrate me. Those are the only two options, and you seem to prefer the former.

I see.

I'd probably beat her to death.

So, using the fine thinking above, how should I have reacted to this statement? Oddly, to me, on the outside looking in, such a comment does not seem condusive to a constructive dialogue. Mila, if you feel you would kill someone during a chance meeting, doesn't that mean you would silence them or am I missing something? Does "I'd probably beat her to death." have a different meaning in Bosnia than it does here in North America?

I honestly get the distinct impression that you don't like her but does that actually nullify what she is saying? She is a Muslim for pete sakes and she is echoing my thoughts?

Einstein, the RF member of course, agreed with my points while also supporting yours. So that leads me to believe that there is validity in what I am saying, (given that he and I do not see many things eye to eye.) Jamaesi also had reservations about the Irshad Manji but didn't just write off everything the lady is saying. So, you can perhaps understand my confusion with the vitriolic nature of your comments. You simply dismiss her with more than a measure of contempt.

My point remains that Muslims must become vigilant against those who choose to hijack your faith. It doesn't matter how many times edicts and proclamations are given if those thoughtful words fall on the deaf ears of the more radical elements of Islam. In all honesty, it's time to take the bull by the horns. What about massive protest rallies with Muslims chanting "This is not Islam!" or "Death to Osama and Crew" or "Death to ignorance". Do you really think that would NOT have an impact and that the evil and biased "western" media would ignore such protests? Frankly I think the ignorant masses would be stunned.

Frankly if it takes someone like Irshad Manji to really p.o. Muslims so they get up and start reacting to the fascist elements of Islam that are running rough shod over your Noble Qur'an, then I'd say "eat it and smile". It may be a bitter pill but it may help cure the disease. If I am missing something Mila, feel free to explain to this old fool who almost never claims to be right, unlike so many here on RF that post their ludicrous thinking. (And no... that doesn't necessarily mean you.)

 

[Djamila]

So, using the fine thinking above, how should I have reacted to this statement?

Why do you need to react at all? It's an expression that conveys the amount of anger I have towards Irshan Manji, for reasons I've already explained two or three times over in this thread.

Oddly, to me, on the outside looking in, such a comment does not seem condusive to a constructive dialogue.

That was the whole point of my comment. I don't want a "dialogue" with Irshan Manji. I know if I ever agreed to such a thing I'd leave frustrated and angry and she'd probably be dead.

Mila, if you feel you would kill someone during a chance meeting, doesn't that mean you would silence them or am I missing something?

You really have a one-track mind in this regard. I don't care if she's silenced or not. I'm not going to run around burning her books so people can't read them. I'm not going to organize loud protests against radio stations so no one can hear when she's being interviewed. These things are what silencing someone's ideas require and I never would, or have even hinted I would, do any of those things. So you can run around in circles like a chicken with its head cut off screaming, "OMG! SILENCE! SILENCER! SILENCER! SILENCER!" until you're blue in the face - that's not that I want.

Does "I'd probably beat her to death." have a different meaning in Bosnia than it does here in North America?

I'd doubt it, but apparently the reasons we say it are different. For us it's a way of saying, "I'll avoid that situation at all costs".

I honestly get the distinct impression that you don't like her but does that actually nullify what she is saying? She is a Muslim for pete sakes and she is echoing my thoughts?

She hates everything about Islam, but says that she is Muslim. You could do the same. It makes no difference in that regard. And I don't like it, at all. I think she empowers people like you, and even worse.

So, you can perhaps understand my confusion with the vitriolic nature of your comments. You simply dismiss her with more than a measure of contempt.

We all react to different things in different ways. No one from my culture would blink twice at how I reacted - and they'd know I was sitting at my computer with a cigarette in one hand, a smile on my face, and some folk music playing.

My point remains that Muslims must become vigilant against those who choose to hijack your faith.

That's what Irshan Manji is, to me.

It doesn't matter how many times edicts and proclamations are given if those thoughtful words fall on the deaf ears of the more radical elements of Islam.

This concept is completely illogical to me. So because someone who will never listen to you doesn't, you shouldn't speak? Now who is trying to silence others? You just don't want us to condemn it because then you wouldn't look the proper fool you do when you say we're doing nothing.

Well, likewise for Christianity. Not that there have been many proclamations against radical Christian elements, but do you think the Westboro Baptist Church is listening to you yet? How about all those white supremicist groups? How about the KKK and other groups that claim to be Christian-based? If they're not listening to you, then it's apparently nothing by your own standards. Look like you've got enough work of your own, you should be too busy worrying about us.

In all honesty, it's time to take the bull by the horns. What about massive protest rallies with Muslims chanting "This is not Islam!" or "Death to Osama and Crew" or "Death to ignorance". Do you really think that would NOT have an impact and that the evil and biased "western" media would ignore such protests? Frankly I think the ignorant masses would be stunned.

There already have been, even in America.

Frankly if it takes someone like Irshad Manji to really p.o. Muslims so they get up and start reacting to the fascist elements of Islam that are running rough shod over your Noble Qur'an, then I'd say "eat it and smile".

Go ahead, I assure you Osama bin Laden is doing more to combat extremism. And I honestly believe that. By his repulsive ideology, he has turned many Muslims away from radical Islam - especially due to the war in Iraq, and the slaughter of Iraqi civilians. Irshan Manji is having no effect in that regard. The people who like her are all people from Muslim cultures who want to be fully secular, safely, anyway. I'm sure she's converted no one.

It may be a bitter pill but it may help cure the disease. If I am missing something Mila, feel free to explain to this old fool who almost never claims to be right, unlike so many here on RF that post their ludicrous thinking. (And no... that doesn't necessarily mean you.)

It's not a bitter pill.

 

[YmirGF]

Why do you need to react at all? It's an expression that conveys the amount of anger I have towards Irshan Manji, for reasons I've already explained two or three times over in this thread.

Um, because I wrote the OP and you responded in a somewhat virulent manner. Traditionally, here on RF, that alone is enough to warrant a response, but I could have the concept somewhat confused.

It IS true, Mila. I could have read your response, giggled while rolling my eyes and simply written you off as a "nutjob". The reality is that I think you are a very intelligent person and for some reason I expected a more thoughtful and constructive response. Perhaps I was suffering from a bout of delusion though; I am getting old, after all.

That was the whole point of my comment. I don't want a "dialogue" with Irshan Manji. I know if I ever agreed to such a thing I'd leave frustrated and angry and she'd probably be dead.

You really have a one-track mind in this regard. I don't care if she's silenced or not. I'm not going to run around burning her books so people can't read them. I'm not going to organize loud protests against radio stations so no one can hear when she's being interviewed. These things are what silencing someone's ideas require and I never would, or have even hinted I would, do any of those things. So you can run around in circles like a chicken with its head cut off screaming, "OMG! SILENCE! SILENCER! SILENCER! SILENCER!" until you're blue in the face - that's not that I want.

I'd doubt it, but apparently the reasons we say it are different. For us it's a way of saying, "I'll avoid that situation at all costs".

Curiously, in North America, in such situations, the way I have always understood both of those expressions is mean quite literally. If I were to say, "beat it to death" I would mean it quite literally... and not figuratively in our oh so politically correct society. One has to be very careful with their speech nowadays. It is a fine idiomatic point, but personally I would only use the expression to relate to a thing; NOT to a person. There is an important difference.

Likewise if I simply wanted to avoid something, I would simply state, "I'd avoid it at all costs". The two are NOT interchangeable, at least to how I use those expressions. But to be perfectly honest, and to use another old expression, I think that other than the issue of "instance" we are probably flogging a dead horse on this issue.

She hates everything about Islam, but says that she is Muslim. You could do the same. It makes no difference in that regard. And I don't like it, at all. I think she empowers people like you, and even worse.

Interesting comment, Mila. I am intrigued and as the writer of the OP I will allow you to answer, if you choose as it is loosely related to the topic. Please, explain the "empower people like you" comment. What precisely do you mean as that is a very telling thing to say. So, what exactly are you saying?

We all react to different things in different ways. No one from my culture would blink twice at how I reacted - and they'd know I was sitting at my computer with a cigarette in one hand, a smile on my face, and some folk music playing.

So, in effect, you are somewhat desensitized to expressions of physical violence? That is telling of your culture. In an internet forum it is sometimes difficult to discern when someone is just kidding around. We see all sorts of loony ideas here on RF and I tend to take people at their word. Often it is quite simple to see when they are speaking figuratively... but apparently, sometimes it is not. The time when you said, way back when you first got here, that you were so frustrated that you were close to strapping a bomb belt on, were you also just kidding? I know I took it that you were quite serious. Put the two together and you can perhaps see where I get confused.

That's what Irshan Manji is, to me.

OK, I can deal with that. At least that makes some sense although given that she is talking about reforming Islam to bring it into the 21st century and out of the 6th century I can see how some would think that she is hijacking the "traditionalist" faith for her own motives and perhaps personal gain.

Curiously, you yourself have been accused of following a "modified" version of Islam to suit your own purposes here on RF by your fellow Muslims. I read those threads very closely and The Truth (and others) was quite clear in his accusations and perplexity at your positions. Although you tried, you did not convince him in the slightest that he was wrong in his understanding of Islam, however the converse is also true. Trust me Mila, I shared several PM's with The Truth over one thread in particular and based on my understanding of Islam I had to come down of his side of the argument and was completely supportive of HIS (and the others) position(s). Oddly, that support was based on my "warped" understanding of Islam, which is pretty darn good for a mere infidel.

This concept is completely illogical to me. So because someone who will never listen to you doesn't, you shouldn't speak? Now who is trying to silence others? You just don't want us to condemn it because then you wouldn't look the proper fool you do when you say we're doing nothing.

I see that you completely misunderstand me, though I thought I was fairly clear. What I am saying Mila is you have to keep saying it and keep saying until you are ready to scream UNTIL those factions begin to pay attention. Do you get it now? Silence is the last thing I would suggest which takes us back to the OP. Sheesh Mila, are you even reading what I am saying or are you simply reactive because “you are right” and “I am wrong”.

Well, likewise for Christianity. Not that there have been many proclamations against radical Christian elements, but do you think the

Westboro Baptist Church is listening to you yet? How about all those white supremacist groups? How about the KKK and other groups that claim to be Christian-based? If they're not listening to you, then it's apparently nothing by your own standards. Look like you've got enough work of your own, you should be too busy worrying about us.

I utterly fail to grasp your reasoning on this one. These groups have been so marginalized that no one really pays any attention to them whatsoever anymore. Although some were invited to Iran recently to dump their marginalized ranting out during the “Holocaust conference” sponsored by the deep thinking, peace loving President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Westboro Baptist church is an aberration to be sure. Many have tried to stop them dead in their tracks but the simple fact is that its leader is also a lawyer and they are protected by several amendments in the US. Because they are savvy lawyers, and not just religious fruit loops it is a bit difficult to deal with them. In Canada however, Mr. Phelps was partly responsible for the drafting of our Anti-hate speech laws. Due to Mr. Phelps burning a Canadian flag on parliament hill and his tirade while there, our leaders passed laws to make sure no one could do that again WITH IMPUNITY. America is a different kettle of fish, Mila. They are not so keen on limiting their freedom of speech or freedom of assembly to stop such lunatics. As a Canadian, I am hard pressed to make much of an impact on that. Sorry. I will tell anyone I know that I think it is wrong however. Can I do much more?

There already have been, even in

America.

Well, I guess I missed that. When have they taken place? Do you have anything to support this? I am talking about groups the size of Martin Luther Kings when they descended on Washington, DC back in the 60’s. THAT would make a huge impact that could NOT be ignored.

Go ahead, I assure you Osama bin Laden is doing more to combat extremism. And I honestly believe that. By his repulsive ideology, he has turned many Muslims away from radical Islam - especially due to the war in

Iraq, and the slaughter of Iraqi civilians. Irshad Manji is having no effect in that regard. The people who like her are all people from Muslim cultures who want to be fully secular, safely, anyway. I'm sure she's converted no one.

I am sure many Muslims are repulsed Mila, at least the thinking ones, at the very least. Well she is still very young so there are hopefully many years for her to rattle those iron cages.

It's not a bitter pill.

So, what are you saying then? There is no disease to “cure” or that it is not a bitter pill because Irshad Manji’s “mission” isn’t “going anywhere”?

 

[YmirGF]

PS: I do really hate how the forum splits quotes automatically (and randomly) since the last updates.

 

[Laila]

I haven't read Irshad Manji's book but from reading about her it seems like she echoes some of the ideas that Tariq Ramadhan has; the only difference is Ramadhan has done it in a more respectful way. I don't like her approach but I'll have to read her book to find out what she has to say.
It's a myth to think that so called 'moderate muslims' do nothing for their faith!

 

[Laila]

Nice one Djamila for bringing up Queen Rania as a muslim feminist; she has a very good understanding of living Islam.

 

[!Fluffy!]

I think she's an idiot, to be frank.

Can you give us an example of some specific thing she has said or done which would qualify her as "an idiot"?

She is very disrespectful, even cowardly I believe, in the manner and circumstances in which she presents her views.

This coward has been getting death threats from other Muslims for years now and refuses to get a bodyguard for personal security. She is willing to be martyred for what she passionately believes, in order to be a voice for others who are powerless to speak for themselves. She speaks publicly and forthrightly with passion about a religion she embraces and with no thought for her own personal safety, rushes to rescue those who haven't the courage to say what they are thinking. She encourages young people to live their lives free of fear. I have never seen her approach a cleric with anything but the utmost respect, while on the other hand these "holy men" have been spitting vile abuse and threats at her publicly and in print... especially when their rhetoric falls apart in the face of her excellent arguments. For the most part they cowardly refuse to speak with her publicly, for a very good reason. It makes them look bad to lose debates with her.

I would never go on the Glen Beck show and speak to that backwoods, Conservative hick about "the trouble" with Islam. I would speak with the people at my Mosque, and sit down with my Imam.

Those kinds of views while undoubtedly popular and sincerely held, are unfortunately based on assumptions or poor research especially when it comes to Glen Beck. There is a REASON this CNN headliner is well thought of and popular - he speaks the truth with passion. He doesn't lie. He doesn't appeal to mass media fluffheads nor does he care for political correctness. He's perfectly willing to be made a fool of in order to get the facts from an interview subject and laughs at himself readily. The pressure he endured simply for airing video culled from all over popular TV in the middle east was enormous. Regarding the muslim community and terrorism, as with everything else, he goes out of his way to present opposing views when he doesn't have to. He abhors lies and hidden agendas and cares nothing for the popular media spin. I find him refreshingly passionate about the truth and admire his forthrightness above everything.

Tarak Fatah said she's making Muslim-haters feel secure in their opinion, and I think he's right. She's like the Jewish police at the concentration camps in WWII.

She makes me want to wear a burka.

To say that Manji is "like the Jewish police at the concentration camps" is typical of the hateful and incendiary rhetoric she is subjected to by her own people every day. Muslim haters don't need muslim reformers in order to feel secure in their opinions, there are plenty of terrorists yelling "Allahu Akbar" to shore up their negative sentiments towards Islam.

"Muslims are not powerless. We have the power to do what no one else ultimately can. We can stop the violence. But we need to convince other Muslims that this behavior is vile, rather than telling non-Muslims that "this is not Islam."​

- Irshad Manji, (my favorite Muslim woman).


So, the message to Muslims is this: instead of telling me that "this is not Islam" stop and consider telling it to the people who are perpetrating so called non Islamic practices in the name of Allah.

 

[Laila]

So, the message to Muslims is this: instead of telling me that "this is not Islam" stop and consider telling it to the people who are perpetrating so called non Islamic practices in the name of Allah.

Of course muslims should be vociferous against non Islamic practices in the name of Islam. There are muslim 'working parties' who are very active in stopping there religion from being hijacked by people who don't know the meaning of religion; shame they are not as publicised as much as the negativity towards Islam.

 

[des]

The thing is this supposed lack of a "moderation" is largely the making of the media (perhaps not so much what they report, as what they don't report). As all over the world there HAVE been Muslim groups speaking against terrorists, most esp. here in the US and Western Europe. There have been Muslims who have risked their lives. Frontline World had a very interesting special on the infiltration by a very conservative (therefore not moderate in that respect) Muslim man who infiltrated a terrorist cell in Canada.

Take a look at this website for info that is seldom presented:
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/canada602/

The fact that there is wide spread fear and perhaps timidity in the Arab world, is not so much the result of Islam as tribalism in the Arab world (same goes for the status of women, etc etc.) I think you need to separate this tribalism from the religion of Islam. (This goes with the movie Infidel and so forth.)

Right after 9-11, there was an outpouring of support from the Muslim world (The head of the Palestine authority gave blood, for instance), but we lost considerable support by the consequent invasion into Iraq. The "they hate us for who we are" is not supportable.


--des

 

[jamaesi]

I can't help but notice people who have never had anything good about Islam in the past latch on to Irshad Manji like she's a Muslim Goddess or something. I can't agree more with Djamila's point about her just making Muslim-haters feel more secure in their positions.

She is definately not a good representative of the faith, to say the least.

So, the message to Muslims is this: instead of telling me that "this is not Islam" stop and consider telling it to the people who are perpetrating so called non Islamic practices in the name of Allah.

And my message to you is: don't treat me like a child. If you think I, and most other Muslims, don't do this already, then that's very sad.

 

[!Fluffy!]

I can't help but notice people who have never had anything good about Islam in the past latch on to Irshad Manji like she's a Muslim Goddess or something. I can't agree more with Djamila's point about her just making Muslim-haters feel more secure in their positions.

She is definately not a good representative of the faith, to say the least.

Rather than imply that I have nothing good to say about Islam I wish you would have read the post in context as a direct REPLY to another.

As far as your opinion on the subject: That's one opinion, certainly you have a right to it but it is as erroneous as it is popular I'm sure. You can hardly contend for example that the subject in question (Glen Beck) has "never had anything good to say about Islam" when in fact the opposite is true. As far as Irshad is concerned I can only comment again that she's articulate, intelligent, outspoken and *gasp* popular with moderates and reformers in HER FAITH. If one wishes to make the point she is not a Muslim, it would frankly sound a little hypocritical, and not very tolerant.

And my message to you is: don't treat me like a child. If you think I, and most other Muslims, don't do this already, then that's very sad.

No one is treating anyone like a child. And as far as what you or other Muslims do or don't do that isn't my concern unless your replies are directed at me. My post was a direct response to another post and should be read in that context rather than taken personally. The point is that I am not the only one on this forum who has been told time and time again "oh, this is not Islam"...for example

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=654636#post654636

And, Judgment Day, will I be stoned for being an Atheist if Muslims take over the world?

With the conduct in some Muslim Countries - I'm sure you will. However, since this thread is about perceptions - is this really what Islam is.
Stone those that leave Islam/ or choose to be Atheist; it certainly isn't. Do Muslims countries best represent or follow Islam? Sadly, I'm afraid not.

"Muslims are not powerless. We have the power to do what no one else ultimately can. We can stop the violence. But we need to convince other Muslims that this behavior is vile, rather than telling non-Muslims that "this is not Islam."​

- Irshad Manji, (my favorite Muslim woman).

 

[TashaN]

So, the message to Muslims is this: instead of telling me that "this is not Islam" stop and consider telling it to the people who are perpetrating so called non Islamic practices in the name of Allah.

And how you will ever know whether me, Mila, Laila or any muslim on the forum spoke loud against the non islamic practices?

Should they appear on the CNN and Fox news so you think of them as heros?

Your problem and the problem of so many people who see us as silent people is that, they don't know that when Muslims work for their religion, they don't do it to be famous or to gain any matrial benefit but rather, to get rewarded by Allah, and they do it inside our community and all muslims know about them and respect them, but those who insults us in front of the world claiming that we don't do a good job in pleasing people like yourself so you can be happy are not worthy even to listen to, not to debate with. When you debate with such a person, you gave them a value or a status which they don't have.

Really, i don't care about those who think of me as a silent muslim who don't want to change his misguided brothers and sisters because God knows i'm doing so and it's enough for me that i'm secure about what i do for my religion and i don't need anyone's approval or clapping for what i do. I don't care about all that.

Therefore, my message to you is this, mind your business and shout against those who are destroying what we build in our youth muslims. The more we try to educate people about the real message of Islam within our communities, the more they keep invading our countries in arrogance, then they come the other way around teaching muslims how to behave, or how to act as real muslims. How pethatic !

 

[James the Persian]

Thanks for posting these links. Declarations such as these are quite rare - I mean, how many times have you seen a Christian Church issue an official condemnation of so-called "Christian" white supremicist groups, or the Westboro Baptist Church in the United States, or the Ustasa in Croatia, or the Cetniks in Serbia, etc., for that matter.

Actually, the attitude of the nationalists who call themselves Christian in Serbia has long been condemned by the Orthodox Church. It's a heresy known as Phyletism which was condemned at the Pan-Orthodox Synod held at Constantinople in 1872. It is utterly condemned for anyone in the Church to hold to religious nationalism and, in so doing, they put themselves outside of the Church. I know of nobody else who has condemned this so strongly, and that's one reason why people like Patriarch Pavle spoke out so forcefully about the attrocities committed by Serbs in the breakup of Yugoslavia.

I then can easily deny that such people are Orthodox and with evidence that they cannot question to back me up. I can also deny that their actions were in any way compatible with their professed faith as Christians. In other words I can prove beyond any doubt that they are not Orthodox Christians. It's a shame they don't acquaint themselves better with their religion. Unfortunately for some Serbs the idea that 'where there is Slava there are Serbs' clearly seems to have been taken to mean that they ought to impose their religion and culture on all southern slavs and they have forgotten their religion in the process. I can only hope that Muslim extremists (I cannot use phyletists as it has no meaning in the context) are as clearly condemned in your community and apologise for those who claimed to have been justified by my faith for what they chose to do to people of your faith.

Sometimes, though, it is apparent that both sides need to be more clear in their condemnations but it's also true that no matter how loudly either of our sides shout out such condemnations, the western media will ignore us. It's in vogue for the media here to ignore the majority of both Orthodox and Muslims (we are treated much the same way in this respect) and rather to amplify the voices of the nutters. Unfortunately, in so doing they are complicit in promoting the extremism in our diaspora communities in western countries

James

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

A few million of us think the reform already exists (and for many religions, not just Islam!).

It's called the Baha'i Faith.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Laila]

Thank you for your post (52) TT.
Regarding Manji lets take a look at this quote:
"The Trouble with Islam Today is a wake-up call for honesty and change on everybody's part. Through the book and this website, let's create conversations where none existed before."

I suppose the people who think Manji is the only reformer haven't heard of the big scholars like for example, Tariq Ramadhan, Syed Akbar Ali and Fatima Mernissi. Did they take the same route as Manji? I think not.

 

[TashaN]

Hi!

A few million of us think the reform already exists (and for many religions, not just Islam!).

It's called the Baha'i Faith.

Peace,

Bruce

Here we go again ! :cover:

 

[TashaN]

Thank you for your post (52) TT.
Regarding Manji lets take a look at this quote:
"The Trouble with Islam Today is a wake-up call for honesty and change on everybody's part. Through the book and this website, let's create conversations where none existed before."

I suppose the people who think Manji is the only reformer haven't heard of the big scholars like for example, Tariq Ramadhan, Syed Akbar Ali and Fatima Mernissi. Did they take the same route as Manji? I think not.

You are most welcome sis.

 

[YmirGF]

Here we go again ! :cover:

My thoughts exactly, The Truth.

 

[!Fluffy!]

TT: As to the first portion of your post, so what. It's a total deflection of my point and, since my post wasn't addressed to you anyway, it would seem disingenous for it to be taken that way. The OP and point under discussion was not about you, nor was it about other Muslim clerics or reformers, nor was it about whether or not any of you should be on CNN or NBC, blah blah blah, but about a particular author. That you dislike her and her message is abundantly clear. That I happen to like her and what she stands for is my right. Interpret that any way you wish.

Therefore, my message to you is this, mind your business

Whatever. Maybe the "freedom of speech" concept is foreign to you - I'm not surprised. If you wish to debate my right to respond and post on these forums, please be my guest.

Also if you wish to claim that Muslims on this board and elsewhere never chant: "this is not Islam" ad nauseum when confronted with obvious evidence to the contrary, it would be easy to prove that's a false claim. I stand by what I said in direct support of what the Muslim author in question wrote, which I have quoted twice, in blue, already. If you have a problem with it, too bad. If you don't understand it, let me give you a better translation: "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining". If you wish to take issue with her excellent advice (which, by the way is the subject under discussion), she has a public access website where you are free to challenge her to your heart's content. I'm sure she'd love to hear from you. You've stated your opinion, and I've stated mine. We each have a right to do that, in my country anyway. I see no point in bludgeoning away at a basic difference of opinion which neither of us is likely to abandon.

and shout against those who are destroying what we build in our youth muslims.

Wha....???? If you want to "shout" about someone "destroying what you build in your youth muslims", whatever the hell that means, go ahead only with a straightforward admission it has nothing to do with anything I said.
On the other hand, if you are referring to the author in question, go talk to her yourself. It might be a refreshing experience.

The more we try to educate people about the real message of Islam within our communities, the more they keep invading our countries in arrogance,

I am so sorry but this is so .... well it is virtually impossible to determine what your argument might be, if read in context it would almost appear as though you believe an arrogant Manji is invading countries! Otherwise it has nothing to do with anything previously mentioned by me or anyone else on this thread. Far be it from me to try, except to point out that unfortunately one statement has absolutely NOTHING to do with the other, and NEITHER has anything to do with the debate being offered here.

You might want to visit
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47926
or
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/



...and just when I thought it couldn't get any worse:

then they come the other way around teaching muslims how to behave, or how to act as real muslims.

:biglaugh: What?? Who are "they"? And if by some chance you are talking about Muslims (of course it is impossible to tell) how many Muslim threads do we have on RF doing just this very thing, every day?

Okay so here is a quick recap of your argument:

1. "mind your business"
2. "shout against those who are destroying what we build in our youth muslims"
3. "The more we try to educate people about the real message of Islam within our communities, the more they (?who?) keep invading our countries in arrogance"
4. "They" teach muslims how to act as real muslims

How pethatic !

Well if one takes into account incoherence and logical fallacies I'd have to say, very!

 

[TashaN]

TT: As to the first portion of your post, so what. It's a total deflection of my point and, since my post wasn't addressed to you anyway, it would seem disingenous for it to be taken that way. The OP and point under discussion was not about you, nor was it about other Muslim clerics or reformers, nor was it about whether or not any of you should be on CNN or NBC, blah blah blah, but about a particular author.

You always fool around and say i wasn't addressing you bla bla when someone show you how wrong you were. I don't care whether you were talking to me or to someone else, once you talk about Islam, don't expect from A MUSLIM to ignore any misconception about his/her religion.

That you dislike her and her message is abundantly clear. That I happen to like her and what she stands for is my right. Interpret that any way you wish.

lol. *shrug* why should i hate her. She can say whatever she wants and as i said in my pervious post, she has no value so i won't waste my time on thinking whether i like her or not. Regarding your interest in her, again, it's not my business.

Whatever. Maybe the "freedom of speech" concept is foreign to you - I'm not surprised. If you wish to debate my right to respond and post on these forums, please be my guest.

It's not about your right to post in here or not, but about your claims about what Muslims should do and what they shouldn't especially about this statement:

So, the message to Muslims is this: instead of telling me that "this is not Islam" stop and consider telling it to the people who are perpetrating so called non Islamic practices in the name of Allah.

That's why i said, mind your business, because what Muslims do with each other is not of your concern.

Also if you wish to claim that Muslims on this board and elsewhere never chant: "this is not Islam" ad nauseum when confronted with obvious evidence to the contrary, it would be easy to prove that's a false claim.

Why you worship three gods? I have evidence that you do.

Therefore, if you wish to claim that Christians on this board and elsewhere never chant: "this is not Christianity" and nauseum when confronted with obvious evidence to the contrary, it would be easy to prove that's a false claim

Opsss, don't tell me this is not Christianity, or you will end to be just a hypocrite.

If you wish to take issue with her excellent advice (which, by the way is the subject under discussion), she has a public access website where you are free to challenge her to your heart's content.

*yawn*

As i said before, i don't give any value to those who don't deserve it.

You've stated your opinion, and I've stated mine. We each have a right to do that, in my country anyway.

hmmmm, do you imply that i can't say my opinion in my country?

Wha....???? If you want to "shout" about someone "destroying what you build in your youth muslims", whatever the hell that means, go ahead only with a straightforward admission it has nothing to do with anything I said.

I am so sorry but this is so .... well it is virtually impossible to determine what your argument might be, if read in context it would almost appear as though you believe an arrogant Manji is invading countries! Otherwise it has nothing to do with anything previously mentioned by me or anyone else on this thread. Far be it from me to try, except to point out that unfortunately one statement has absolutely NOTHING to do with the other, and NEITHER has anything to do with the debate being offered here.

You said: So, the message to Muslims is this: instead of telling me that "this is not Islam" stop and consider telling it to the people who are perpetrating so called non Islamic practices in the name of Allah.

That's why i responded saying that, the more we try to educate the Muslim youth about the our peaceful religion, the more your country and others invade our Muslim countries and destroy everything we did. Invading Muslim countries and humiliate it's people will just feed the hate and show the terrorists as heros in the eyes of so many Muslims because they are fighting back. I hope your government will stop it's terror against us.

I hope you got what i meant by now.

You might want to visit
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47926
or
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Thank you.

...and just when I thought it couldn't get any worse:

Continue the great story ...

and just when I thought it couldn't get any worse..... Super Man died and the world became without a savior. :sad4:

What?? Who are "they"?

"They" refer to you and people who hold the same attitude and mentality as you do.