A note that will pain most atheists

[MaddLlama]

I would love for all of you, every single one of you, to have a vision of God and retain your atheism. That would absolutely make my day. You probably don't believe me, but you have no idea how happy I would feel if you would do see a vision of God and remain an atheist. That would be so exciting!

How exactly is that logically possible?

 

[Panda]

You don't see to understand this. An athiest can not have a vision of God because from our point of view God does not exist. An athiest who has a vision of God and says it is such is no longer an athiest. Telling an athiest to look for God is like looking for a piece of plastic with a metal detector, we will never find anything because the minute we stop actively believeing God doesn't exist we are no longer athiests.
If you want im sure I could find someone with weed, get my self stoned and have a "vision of God."

 

[UnTheist]

How exactly is that logically possible?

I was thinking the same thing. :sarcastic

 

[Papersock]

How exactly is that logically possible?

By having a vision of god but not attributing it to god?

 

[Chevalier Violet]

By having a vision of god but not attributing it to god?

Precisely!

 

[MaddLlama]

Precisely!

But, then it's not really a vision of god, it's something else.

 

[Chevalier Violet]

You don't see to understand this. An athiest can not have a vision of God because from our point of view God does not exist. An athiest who has a vision of God and says it is such is no longer an athiest. Telling an athiest to look for God is like looking for a piece of plastic with a metal detector, we will never find anything because the minute we stop actively believeing God doesn't exist we are no longer athiests.
If you want im sure I could find someone with weed, get my self stoned and have a "vision of God."

You don't seem to understand this, an atheist can have a vision of God (vision has about six definitions in the dictionary) and not attribute it to God. No weed required, although maybe that would help (that's a joke).

You're the one telling me over and over that God could be a delusion, and now you're like, "but if we have that delusion, we wouldn't be atheists!"

Maybe I just didn't make what I meant by vision of God clear enough, aka, the perception that some attribute to God. If so, that's my fault and I take full responsibility for it.

I like discussing with you. I like your ideas and passion. Please look at the dictionary a bit more (I'm just teasing, please look at the dictionary even less)

CV

 

[Chevalier Violet]

But, then it's not really a vision of god, it's something else.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vision

1.the act or power of sensing with the eyes; sight.
2.the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be: prophetic vision; the vision of an entrepreneur.
3.an experience in which a personage, thing, or event appears vividly or credibly to the mind, although not actually present, often under the influence of a divine or other agency: a heavenly messenger appearing in a vision. Compare hallucination (def. 1).
4.something seen or otherwise perceived during such an experience: The vision revealed its message.
5.a vivid, imaginative conception or anticipation: visions of wealth and glory.
6.something seen; an object of sight.
[...]


I think you would prefer definition three then.

But if ultimately God exists, it would be definition four or six.

The ambiguity is intentional.

I don't know, personally I knew about these different meanings of the word vision, and honestly the first definition that comes to my mind is "hallucination." So maybe you'd never heard it used this way before? I'm just trying to figure out why there's all this miscommunication. Let me know if you have any ideas.

The Purple Knight, who is now going to fall over from exhaustion

PS I am not trying to define words for you, I am just trying to show you why I chose the word I did. If you can think of a better, clearer way of expressing "vision of God" (perception of God) that is amenable to both theists and atheists, Please, do let me know.

Thx,

le Chevalier Violet, qui va maintenant aller s'endormir d'epuisement

 

[MaddLlama]

It's not the word "vision" I object to, but the word "god".

And, really, coupling atheist and "seeing god" makes no sense to me at all. And, just saying it over an =d over again ultimately doesn't make it make more sense.

 

[Ryan2065]

So basically... This is what you want.

You want an atheist to have a "vision of God" right? So who is to say we all haven't had visions of God and just said they were delusions, day dreams, side effects of drugs, etc. etc. etc. Someone could have the same exact experience as you and just write it off as nothing and forget about it the next day.
Example:
Guy A is very very religious... Guy B is not.
Guy A orders toast and when he gets it he sees burn marks that look like Jesus and he remembers that toast until the day he dies.
Guy B orders toast and sees a funny face in the toast, laughs, eats it, and forgets about it the next day.

You ask Guy A if he has ever saw Jesus he will say yes, on a piece of toast once. You ask Guy B if he ever saw Jesus, he will say no, even though he got the same exact piece of toast.

We could have had these visions you seem to want us to have but because we do not have the same experiences as you we might just write these off as nothing.

 

[Papersock]

Precisely!

Yay! I win.

 

[eudaimonia]

-All I'm saying is, before a person has such an experience, he or she has NO RIGHT to say that God doesn't exist. Even if God indeed doesn't exist, nobody can deny that *religious experience* exists. So these atheists should HAVE a "vision of God" before they speak.

I do not doubt that people have epiphanic experiences that they attribute to God. I will grant that you have had such experiences. However, I don't believe they constitute reliable evidence of the existence of God. Even if I haven't had such an experience, I'm still in a position to say that the existence of God is unsupported.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Nanda]

By having a vision of god but not attributing it to god?

Precisely!

But then what's the point?

 

[Papersock]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vision

1.the act or power of sensing with the eyes; sight.
2.the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be: prophetic vision; the vision of an entrepreneur.
3.an experience in which a personage, thing, or event appears vividly or credibly to the mind, although not actually present, often under the influence of a divine or other agency: a heavenly messenger appearing in a vision. Compare hallucination (def. 1).
4.something seen or otherwise perceived during such an experience: The vision revealed its message.
5.a vivid, imaginative conception or anticipation: visions of wealth and glory.
6.something seen; an object of sight.
[...]


I think you would prefer definition three then.

But if ultimately God exists, it would be definition four or six.

The ambiguity is intentional.

I don't know, personally I knew about these different meanings of the word vision, and honestly the first definition that comes to my mind is "hallucination." So maybe you'd never heard it used this way before? I'm just trying to figure out why there's all this miscommunication. Let me know if you have any ideas.

The Purple Knight, who is now going to fall over from exhaustion

PS I am not trying to define words for you, I am just trying to show you why I chose the word I did. If you can think of a better, clearer way of expressing "vision of God" (perception of God) that is amenable to both theists and atheists, Please, do let me know.

Thx,

le Chevalier Violet, qui va maintenant aller s'endormir d'epuisement

So, you're not really talking about visions of god, but visions in general?
I think even if God does exist, a vision may not necessarily come from that god. If you have a vision predicting the future and it comes true, there could be other things going on other than gods. But I guess it depends on what you think gods are...

 

[gnostic]

Dude, WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Show me the location, place even letter where I ever implied that I believe in God. I even put in bold letters that I don't know if God exists, and you ask me this question.

Whyyyyyyy does everyone keep telling me the same thing over and over????

Because you are not making sense. You keep contradicting yourself.

And from the way you write, in other posts, you sound like a theist.

Maybe I just didn't make what I meant by vision of God clear enough, aka, the perception that some attribute to God. If so, that's my fault and I take full responsibility for it.

Finally. An admission that you are not making sense. Yes, it's your fault.

You don't make sense and your OP don't make sense. You simply leave a long trial of confusion in your wake. And you are still doing it. :banghead3

Just like this statement of yours:

You don't seem to understand this, an atheist can have a vision of God (vision has about six definitions in the dictionary) and not attribute it to God.

This don't make sense. It is contradiction of one part over another.

Either the vision have do with God, or it don't. The sources of the vision may come from other factors. Or it is simply a dream.

You want atheists to have vision of God, and that they should be open to God, and yet you are saying that.

And you don't even seem to understand the definition of atheism, and you keep yapping away about vision and god.

Make some sense, damn it.

Your topic, "A note that will pain most atheists". Well, I am agnostic, and you're giving me pain.

 

[doppelganger]

CV, it's a safe bet that when you have to tell everyone else in a conversation that they don't understand what you are talking about, the problem isn't with them.

Perhaps you should ask atheists more questions and listen rather than preaching (which I've been subtly suggesting all along). You might find that there is a "vision of God" for them as well, but that they don't interpret it that way (for the reason everyone has said - they don't "believe" in "God."). But you won't know if you don't ask.

I apologize for boring you. I will now "go away" as requested.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I would like to suggest in regards to the OP that some references to what Buddhists believe are a little off. I urge anyone who has any questions about Buddhism to explore the DIR forums here or to just read one of the overviews of Buddhism.




Peace,
Mystic

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Ok, here are some points for CV (I have only skimmed the posts so sorry if I am repeating bringing up something that has already been argued! )

1)There is a huge difference between saying "one doesnt believe in God" and "God doesnt exist". Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Atheists (the ones I know) neither accept or deny the existance of God, they just dont believe in him personally.

2) How can there be religious experiences if God/a higher being/whatever you call it doesnt exist at all (I do believe in God and therefore believe that there are religious experiences) - however, the two sort of go hand in hand!

3) You say you have "seen God" though do not believe in him! hmmm.. thats an interesting point. Is that to say you can "see" the sky is blue but you still think its orange? I cant see anyone trully "seeing God" and then not believing in him it doesnt make logical sense!

 

[Pah]

....
1)There is a huge difference between saying "one doesnt believe in God" and "God doesnt exist". Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Atheists (the ones I know) neither accept or deny the existance of God, they just dont believe in him personally.

As belief is embedded in faith, so too is belief embedded in the certainty of an invented god. I understand belief to the gathering and analysis of evidence. The conclusion is what is call faith of existence or "certainty" of non-existence for the atheist

2) How can there be religious experiences if God/a higher being/whatever you call it doesnt exist at all (I do believe in God and therefore believe that there are religious experiences) - however, the two sort of go hand in hand! ....

Isn't the mind a wonderful thing. I have had the experience yet now know that it was all within my mind with no external basis.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Isn't the mind a wonderful thing. I have had the experience yet now know that it was all within my mind with no external basis.

For you it would yes! so Exactly! It was therefore NOT a religious experience. Any person who claims to have a religious experience can no longer call themselvels atheist as they would be admitting that there was a God!