A note that will pain most atheists

[MaddLlama]

What makes your "system" so wonderful and fool-proof?

 

[Chevalier Violet]

It's not just me, you know... That's the whole point.

It is not just one person who believes God is real. It's a whole lot of people. There are a lot of people who believe both, THAT is the whole point.

For the record I don't believe anybody who has not seen a vision of God themselves SHOULD BELIEVE in God for any reason.

Also, I am agnostic.

That's ok. I don't see how your OP is logical.

Ooo, damn I'm stumped. Man, I know I am going to think of a comeback sometime tonight, but I just don't have it now. I hate it when that happens.

I don't claim to be a great writer or anything. I wouldn't be surprised if my OP is a bunch of incoherent rambling. I don't have the health to explain it to you. I don't know, a bunch of atheists on the other board got it and tried my experiment for themselves.

Are you admitting that your attitude isn't very scientific, or do you have any reasons I don't see why your attitude isn't inquisitive. You don't have to justify yourself, I'm just curious why you would not want to expand your religious experience.

FYI: I sometimes define a religious experience as something that could be imaginary.

Is this one of those "if you don't like it, why don't you leave" statements? Those are so great. They taste like candy.

No, this is one of those "I am only interested in your personal experience" statements. Abstractions don't interest me very much, but a person's personal experience is very interesting to me. So far, it seems that your personal experience is "I have never seen God." Seems valid to me, and your theories are plausible. Got anything to add or are we done here?

Since you like candy: *offers candy.*

 

[Chevalier Violet]

What makes your "system" so wonderful and fool-proof?

Absolutely nothing. In fact, I'm sure many people who are much smarter than I will break it.

I am just a researcher, an epistemologist of religion. If you have any ideas for how to improve this "system," please share!

I am just hoping to improve it through trial and error. I would really appreciate your testing it yourself, or if not that, suggestions for how to improve it/make it less onerous somehow.

CV

PS Haha, wonderful and fool-proof. It is just a first effort, and not one I am very proud of either. I really hope I can improve it over time.

 

[UnTheist]

What I did was I prayed for years wanting to get just one amazing experience from God. Or some sign that He was there. After I got nothing back, I just gave up and decided to stop wasting my energy and time.

I won't do you your step-by-step experiment, since it is worthless and my life is great without Him/Her/It/whoever. Whether my way was the same as your experiment or not is not important. I tried and nothing happened. If the God wants me to realize His existence, He knows where I live.

 

[Chevalier Violet]

What I did was I prayed for years wanting to get just one amazing experience from God. Or some sign that He was there. After I got nothing back, I just gave up and decided to stop wasting my energy and time.

I won't do you your step-by-step experiment, since it is worthless and my life is great without Him/Her/It/whoever. Whether my way was the same as your experiment or not is not important. I tried and nothing happened. If the God wants me to realize His existence, He knows where I live.

As far as I'm concerned, you have every right to be an atheist and this note shouldn't "pain" you at all. Thanks for seeking.

Also, are you saying you didn't read the step by step I posted?

:O

Just kidding. You have put in more than a reasonable effort, and I ask no more of you. You have sought, and gone the extra mile. As far as I'm concerned, you have every right and reason to be an atheist.


I'm really sorry to hear you never did see God, not because I am certain God exists or any nonsense like that, but because the experience is really cool. Actually the word f*ing awesome comes to mind. Sorry, I'm not trying to pressure you or brag or anything. (I get in the reverse situation every time my friend has amazing sex with his gf, and then rambles on about it... ok maybe that analogy only holds in my brain )

Yeah, we're all going to heaven anyway, and I agree that if somebody's living in the clouds, as the Christians say (ha!), He'll know where to find you.

Enjoy life and see you around RF,

CV

 

[cardero]

Chevalier Violet writes: All I'm saying is, before a person has such an experience, he or she has NO RIGHT to say that God doesn't exist. Even if God indeed doesn't exist, nobody can deny that *religious experience* exists. So these atheists should HAVE a "vision of God" before they speak.

What the atheist may be trying to portray is not necessarily proving that there is or isn’t a GOD as much as they are pronouncing that they do not need GOD in their lives and atheists as well as theists have the right to declare this at any moment.

 

[Nanda]

I'm just curious why you would not want to expand your religious experience.

I was a Baptist for several years. I looked, I found nothing. The reason I didn't bring it up before is that it doesn't matter - I don't see the point of atheists trying to have visions of something they don't believe to be there. Whether or not many other people believe in it is irrelevant. That's just about all I have to say about that.

 

[elwedriddsche]

Going back to the OP...

The point of my post is this: if you are an atheist, are you willing to look?

No.

 

[gnostic]

Haven't you got that yet?

I have many vivid dreams, not delusions, and not visions.

If you want to read some of my dreams, then visit the forum, Free2Code, Religion, where I am known there as the Storyteller. There are many topics there that unrelated to religions, and lot about dreams, because the site (free2code) is actually programming community, so it's not really a religion forum. Feel free to read my dreams, CV.

If you see any that you think are visions "from God", then let me know.

Likewise :areyoucra

Normal people bore me anyway, so I'm glad you're posting here.

Once you've read my dreams, then no doubt you would find me strange.

 

[doppelganger]

My wrists hurt, so without further ado.



The Purple Knight

I used this method for many years. Using prayer to petition "God" for things does just the opposite for me than what you suggest. It reinforces the perception of distance between me and the Divine. Your results may vary, but from my perspective it is spiritually unhealthy.

 

[Panda]

CV you don't understand. This is like getting a Chritian to go around telling the world God doesnt exist.

How many times do we have to go over that an athiest can't have a vision of God. You make me want to go and reapetadly bang my head against a wall.

I mean what right do you think you have to tell us what we can and can not belief in? You are saying you can't be an atheist unless you have had a personal experience of God? Maybe my personal experience is that I have never had one, this leads me to believe that God doesnt exist. It seems like you are trying to convert people, like the evangelists you aparantly detest.

 

[Scuba Pete]

All I'm saying is, before a person has such an experience, he or she has NO RIGHT to say that God doesn't exist. Even if God indeed doesn't exist, nobody can deny that *religious experience* exists. So these atheists should HAVE a "vision of God" before they speak.

First, I would assume that you are not a Constitutional Lawyer by your assertion. They have just as much "right" to express their opinions one way or another, right or wrong. They can assert with confidence that experiences such as yours are delusional and so they consequently do not exist.

Let's look at why I believe your epiphany was delusional.

1. You don't believe. If God were to really touch you in the way you suggest, then belief would be more than automatic, it would be nigh to compulsory. You would indeed have a specific mission from God (a Paul complex).
2. These type of experiences are not needed to believe in God. God has his own mechanism for belief. Why were you singled out?
3. Very few individuals ever claim to experience this kind of interaction. Why were you singled out?
4. These delusions can almost always be explained scientifically or medically.

Although I alluded to this in point 2, you completely misunderstand how many of us believe that God imbues belief. We call this "revealed", meaning that YOU are not in control. The less you believe in God, the less you will see of him. You don't need blinding flashes of light or an magnitude change in your perception to understand and believe in God.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You make me want to go and reapetadly bang my head against a wall.

Can I film this???

 

[Panda]

Can I film this???

Sure why not

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Out of curiosity, and suspecting I will regret asking, do you have any other reasons?

Well, let's see.

The Problem of Evil.
God's open sadism and cruelty.
Out-of-date codes of morality.
Bad science in the Bible presented as fact.
Contradictions in the Bible.
Unfulfilled prophecies.
Lack of evidence that Christians as a group behave better than non-Christians.
No documented, peer-reviewed instances of observing God.
No documented, peer-reviewed scientific evidence that these alleged visions of God are actually that.

And that's just what I can think of. I'm sure the list goes on.

That is aimed at certain people I know, perhaps not you.

Cool, but my objection still stands.

You're right, you don't see the connection. Too long to explain with CTS, sorry

I'm still lost, man. (What is CTS?)

Guess again.

It does. Try it yourself.

Please see all my responses to the thread as I have covered this question in more length.

And what did you say? There's a lot to sift through here.

No my objection stands because you can read the step-by-step process I just posted and try for yourself.

I don't know if having a "vision of God" would be evidence for anything, but you can at least try to see for yourself using this method.

This post isn't about proving ANYTHING. This post is about at least asking atheists to try this step-by-step thing before settling on atheism.

I'm not saying this step by step is perfect... in fact I just tweaked it. I would just like to know if it works for you, please.

Look, this particular point needs to be dropped. The connection between the documented existence of the Mona Lisa and the assumed, based-only-in-faith existence of God is a night-and-day difference. I can't see how you can insist that they're one and the same.

FYI, every atheist I have met HAS gone through this step-by-step procedure called the deconversion process, which frankly, I'm not convinced you understand or appreciate.

Besides, even if this vision or whatever you had was real, how do you know it wasn't the Goddess, the Tri-force, Krishnu, Lucifer, or whatever?

All right, your post was pretty sarcastic so I only assumed you were insulting me in the first place. My mistake. I didn't mean it and I was only trying to "even the score" and change the subject, not escalate anything.

It's cool.

Vision from God and sign from God are different than vision of God. I would still try the step by step process in your case, as a vision OF God is different than anything you will ever experience.

Right. Visions from God are what I thought we were referring to.

Uh, what? I assume that's a dig against some particular form of theism, probably Christianity, that I certainly neither know nor care anything about.

No no, see, this is the entire point of my argument. You've been saying all this time that an atheist has no right to cite the lack of a vision of God as lack of evidence of God. Which I reply, the atheist has every right, so long as this is only one piece of the puzzle and not the entire basis for lack of belief. However, I know of no case where an atheist doesn't believe solely because of a lack of vision; as I mentioned earlier, there are usually a host of reasons for lack of belief.

I believe we are all going to "heaven," no matter what. I also believe belief on "faith" is the most horrible abomination ever perpetrated on mankind. I like beliefs personal experience. Which is why I posted this step-by-step, so that atheists may experience this "delusion" for themselves, and then make a judgment based on personal experience. I would love for them to share this with me, because I am infinitely fascinated by that sort of thing.

Atheists usually base their beliefs in personal experience. I just want a few to try this step-by-step. I want them to perceive what everybody calls God and keep their atheism. That would seriously make my day. You have no idea.

CV

You know, it's funny; I watched Jesus Camp for the first time about a week ago. Without giving anything away for those who haven't seen it, I kept thinking to myself, wow, I think it might be powerful and very cleansing to have a safe environment to have those kind of experiences--without having to sell out one's beliefs or join some kind of cult. Of course, if that means basically discarding half of one's mind, then it's not worth the price of admission. And I hope that that is precisely what does not go on during an experience of a vision--sacrificing reason and intelligence for an emotional and spiritual experience. Because they are to be avoided at all costs if so.

 

[Chevalier Violet]

What the atheist may be trying to portray is not necessarily proving that there is or isn’t a GOD as much as they are pronouncing that they do not need GOD in their lives and atheists as well as theists have the right to declare this at any moment.

So true. I definitely don't mean to imply that having a vision of God is necessary to happiness. I'm not happy so obviously I wouldn't know. In my experience, having a vision of God was a bit like discovering a part of myself I had forgotten. But it is absurd to say that I couldn't be happy without.

I am proposing this as a simple experiment. That's all my steps are is an experiment in my epistemology of religion.

I was a Baptist for several years. I looked, I found nothing. The reason I didn't bring it up before is that it doesn't matter - I don't see the point of atheists trying to have visions of something they don't believe to be there. Whether or not many other people believe in it is irrelevant. That's just about all I have to say about that.

That's cool, I don't think this note should "pain" you then, since you have already tried to look.

The purpose of looking for something you don't believe is there is the same as the physical sciences, or any inquisitive discipline at all. The point is to continually forge our beliefs in the fire of reality.

Some people are interested in doing this experiment, you are not. That's fine with me.

Going back to the OP...

No.

That's fine with me, thanks for reading.

I have many vivid dreams, not delusions, and not visions.

If you want to read some of my dreams, then visit the forum, Free2Code, Religion, where I am known there as the Storyteller. There are many topics there that unrelated to religions, and lot about dreams, because the site (free2code) is actually programming community, so it's not really a religion forum. Feel free to read my dreams, CV.

If you see any that you think are visions "from God", then let me know.


Once you've read my dreams, then no doubt you would find me strange.

Yeah, damn it I'm going to have to post more about what a vision of God is. This is my fault, but yeah, you'd have to perceive it while awake. Dreams don't count. As a general rule, if you have to ask: "was this a vision of God" it wasn't.

People KNOW.

I used this method for many years. Using prayer to petition "God" for things does just the opposite for me than what you suggest. It reinforces the perception of distance between me and the Divine. Your results may vary, but from my perspective it is spiritually unhealthy.

What method? Sorry? I just read something about wrists lol.

You mean praying to God as an entity distances yourself from the divine? Or asking for things?

This is interesting to me.

I don't think I would personally recommend asking God for things as a good way to have a vision of God. I believe the Christians have once again misrepresented the presence I feel, which does not exert much influence on my reality.

I think the best way to make contact with the presence I feel is to apologize for your shortcomings (the Christian recommendation, sorry about that )

 

[UnTheist]

Mercy, CTS means Carpel Tunnel Syndrome

 

[Chevalier Violet]

CV you don't understand. This is like getting a Christian to go around telling the world God doesnt exist.

To me, it is like getting a Christian to go around telling the world that he or she IS NOT 100% CERTAIN God exists. That is something I would love to see.

How many times do we have to go over that an athiest can't have a vision of God.

An atheist can have a vision of God one time, ten times, ten million times. So long as the atheist believes that vision of God is a DELUSION that person is still an atheist.

You make me want to go and reapetadly bang my head against a wall.

Likewise.

I mean what right do you think you have to tell us what we can and can not belief in? It seems like you are trying to convert people, like the evangelists you aparantly detest.

Oops. No right at all. Crap, I hate the language of my OP.

I actually am not trying to convert atheists to theism. What I would like the most is have more atheists who have actually seen this "delusion" but are still atheists. That would absolutely rock my world. Because right now, I know NOBODY like that.

1. You don't believe. If God were to really touch you in the way you suggest, then belief would be more than automatic, it would be nigh to compulsory. You would indeed have a specific mission from God (a Paul complex).

Huh? I am not certain God exists... I want atheists to remain atheists. Please! That would be amazing. I am conducting personal research on visions of God. So I would like atheists (who I can trust to be skeptical and more objective toward their visions of God than theists) to experience visions of God and report back.

1. These type of experiences are not needed to believe in God. God has his own mechanism for belief. Why were you singled out?

Huh? Why would a person believe in God without having seen a vision of God first? That doesn't make any sense to me, and never has.

1. Very few individuals ever claim to experience this kind of interaction. Why were you singled out?

Because nobody has yet tried the step by step.

1. These delusions can almost always be explained scientifically or medically.

Absolutely.

You don't need blinding flashes of light or an magnitude change in your perception to understand and believe in God.

I do believe, from my personal experience, that someone who has never had one could not understand a vision of God.

God's open sadism and cruelty.
Out-of-date codes of morality.
Bad science in the Bible
Contradictions in the Bible.
Unfulfilled prophecies.
Lack of evidence that Christians as a group ...

Those all sound like what I would call "anti-Christian" reasons, but that's ok with me.

The Problem of Evil.

Please explain.

No documented, peer-reviewed instances of observing God.

Yeah, this is the Christian's fault. The visions of God I experience, I experience entirely in my heart. So "documentation" and "peer-review" and "observation" are strictly impossible. Which is not to say that God doesn't exist, and isn't to say that God does exist either. It just means that certain types of evidence do not exist.

I'm still lost, man. (What is CTS?)

Carpel tunnel syndrome. I am feeling a little better today, but I will soon have to stop.

It does. Try it yourself.

The last word has 5 asterisks, not 4.

And what did you say? There's a lot to sift through here.

Sorry.

Look, this [Mona Lisa] point needs to be dropped. I can't see how you can insist that they're one and the same.

lol. Is a heart a rose? No it's just an image, a metaphor, an analogy. A transfer of traits from unlike objects to illuminate.

I see atheists who claim a vision of God is a delusion as being like a person who's never heard Beethoven's fourth symphony and says it's terrible.

If they don't like Beethoven, of course they have every reason to believe that they won't like this symphony. And maybe they won't.

My point is that I just don't see much reason to listen to people's opinions on visions of God who have never had one (whether they're theists or atheists). I don't know, that might seem kind of snobby or something. Don't get me wrong, I've heard lots of plausible and logically coherent speculations as to why it's a delusion.

So yes I'm looking for a certain type of evidence, personal evidence. Atheists have "I have no evidence." and that is perfectly valid. I've kind of heard it before, that's all.

 

[Chevalier Violet]

CV you don't understand. This is like getting a Christian to go around telling the world God doesnt exist.

To me, it is like getting a Christian to go around telling the world that he or she IS NOT 100% CERTAIN God exists. That is something I would love to see.

How many times do we have to go over that an athiest can't have a vision of God.

An atheist can have a vision of God one time, ten times, ten million times. So long as the atheist believes that vision of God is a DELUSION that person is still an atheist.

You make me want to go and reapetadly bang my head against a wall.

Likewise.

I mean what right do you think you have to tell us what we can and can not belief in? It seems like you are trying to convert people, like the evangelists you aparantly detest.

Oops. No right at all. Crap, I hate the language of my OP.

I actually am not trying to convert atheists to theism. What I would like the most is have more atheists who have actually seen this "delusion" but are still atheists. That would absolutely rock my world. Because right now, I know NOBODY like that.

1. You don't believe. If God were to really touch you in the way you suggest, then belief would be more than automatic, it would be nigh to compulsory. You would indeed have a specific mission from God (a Paul complex).

Huh? I am not certain God exists... I want atheists to remain atheists. Please! That would be amazing. I am conducting personal research on visions of God. So I would like atheists (who I can trust to be skeptical and more objective toward their visions of God than theists) to experience visions of God and report back.

1. These type of experiences are not needed to believe in God. God has his own mechanism for belief. Why were you singled out?

Huh? Why would a person believe in God without having seen a vision of God first? That doesn't make any sense to me, and never has.

1. Very few individuals ever claim to experience this kind of interaction. Why were you singled out?

Because nobody has yet tried the step by step.

1. These delusions can almost always be explained scientifically or medically.

Absolutely.

You don't need blinding flashes of light or an magnitude change in your perception to understand and believe in God.

I do believe, from my personal experience, that someone who has never had one could not understand a vision of God.

God's open sadism and cruelty.
Out-of-date codes of morality.
Bad science in the Bible
Contradictions in the Bible.
Unfulfilled prophecies.
Lack of evidence that Christians as a group ...

Those all sound like what I would call "anti-Christian" reasons, but that's ok with me.

The Problem of Evil.

Please explain.

No documented, peer-reviewed instances of observing God.

Yeah, this is the Christian's fault. The visions of God I experience, I experience entirely in my heart. So "documentation" and "peer-review" and "observation" are strictly impossible. Which is not to say that God doesn't exist, and isn't to say that God does exist either. It just means that certain types of evidence do not exist.

I'm still lost, man. (What is CTS?)

Carpel tunnel syndrome. I am feeling a little better today, but I will soon have to stop.

It does. Try it yourself.

The last word has 5 asterisks, not 4.

And what did you say? There's a lot to sift through here.

Sorry.

Look, this [Mona Lisa] point needs to be dropped. I can't see how you can insist that they're one and the same.

lol. Is a heart a rose? No it's just an image, a metaphor, an analogy. A transfer of traits from unlike objects to illuminate.

I see atheists who claim a vision of God is a delusion as being like a person who's never heard Beethoven's fourth symphony and says it's terrible.

If they don't like Beethoven, of course they have every reason to believe that they won't like this symphony. And maybe they won't.

My point is that I just don't see much reason to listen to people's opinions on visions of God who have never had one (whether they're theists or atheists). I don't know, that might seem kind of snobby or something. Don't get me wrong, I've heard lots of plausible and logically coherent speculations as to why it's a delusion.

So yes I'm looking for a certain type of evidence, personal evidence. Atheists have "I have no evidence." and that is perfectly valid. I've kind of heard it before, that's all.

Cont'd

 

[Willamena]

To me, it is like getting a Christian to go around telling the world that he or she IS NOT 100% CERTAIN God exists. That is something I would love to see.

Christianity has its share of agnostics.