A Pastor With Guts

[CaptainXeroid]

...Why does life have to be so full of so much bickering and negativity?

Because if it weren't, most discussion forums would go away and people would actually have to talk to each other...like before the internet was invented.:biglaugh:

 

[Lycan]

Ok, I'll be the dissenter. I liked it and didn't have a problem with it. If all of the senate is in agreement that they want a pastor, rabbi, buddhist or whatever saying a prayer, then what right does anyone outside the senate have to complain? When you get elected to the senate, you can object and at that point, the prayers should be eliminated.

Because they are there representing all of us, speaking for all of us and that is the problem, most of them bow and jump thru hoops to get elected but then when in office use it for their own personal agenda. It is not just "they" we are talking about but a representation of all of us.

 

[Melody]

Because they are there representing all of us, speaking for all of us and that is the problem, most of them bow and jump thru hoops to get elected but then when in office use it for their own personal agenda. It is not just "they" we are talking about but a representation of all of us.

So why does it bother you that they choose to pray? Ok, so it's in a government building. So what? As long as they aren't making it a law to pray, what difference does it make?

 

[Lycan]

So why does it bother you that they choose to pray? Ok, so it's in a government building. So what?

Because it does not belong in a group that is supposedly representing all the of the people (which have different faiths and belief systems) who voted for them. I couldn't care less about the government building, I do care however, if someone who represents me uses their personal religion or on the other hand disdain for a particular religion in that representation.

As long as they aren't making it a law to pray, what difference does it make?

Because, like I said, they are speaking for me.

 

[ness]

Because, like I said, they are speaking for me.

I don't know if the Pastor was a part of the Senate or if he was someone they all agreed upon to do Prayer before they started.
Could they not have their Prayer before speaking for you .. myself... or anyone else?

 

[lilithu]

It would have been much more constructive if he would have prayed for the Lord to grant wisdom to the legislators instead of pushing a conservative agenda.

Frubals to AE! :jam: Instead of humbly asking for guidance, his "prayer" revealed that he thought that he knew better than others what should be done.

And as for Netdoc, it says that I have to spread my karma around s'more before giving it to you again.

 

[Lycan]

Could they not have their Prayer before speaking for you .. myself... or anyone else?

No, I don't believe they should. It would be an impossibility to acknowledge every belief system individually before the session, so just leave it out all together.... do not have a public display of religion if they cannot all be observed. If individuals want to pray for guidence or whatever, let them do it at home.

 

[ness]

No, I don't believe they should. It would be an impossibility to acknowledge every belief system individually before the session, so just leave it out all together.... do not have a public display of religion if they cannot all be observed. If individuals want to pray for guidence or whatever, let them do it at home.

Great point

 

[Melody]

Because it does not belong in a group that is supposedly representing all the of the people (which have different faiths and belief systems) who voted for them. I couldn't care less about the government building, I do care however, if someone who represents me uses their personal religion or on the other hand disdain for a particular religion in that representation.


Because, like I said, they are speaking for me.

No...when they actually start making laws they are speaking for you. Otherwise you don't own them. If you believe you do, then that means they can't pray in their offices either since they're still in their official capacity. I believe that's carrying it a bit too far.

Exactly how did they show disdain for other religions? Again...if the senators have a problem with it then that's one thing. If they don't, then everyone else should butt out.

Be careful that you don't deny them the very thing you want yourself. Religious freedom.

 

[Melody]

No, I don't believe they should. It would be an impossibility to acknowledge every belief system individually before the session, so just leave it out all together.... do not have a public display of religion if they cannot all be observed. If individuals want to pray for guidence or whatever, let them do it at home.

Why do they have to acknowledge every belief system? How about just the belief system of those present?

 

[Melody]

My apologies. I'm reading back through these and realized I was being a bit harsh and while I still believe everything I've said, I could have said it more courteously.

 

[Lycan]

No...when they actually start making laws they are speaking for you. Otherwise you don't own them. If you believe you do, then that means they can't pray in their offices either since they're still in their official capacity. I believe that's carrying it a bit too far.

First off, we do own them, we are the reason they are there, we pay their salaries, that is why it is called public office...
Second, when I said at home, I should have said in private (I apologize), I am not concerned if they pray in their office.

Exactly how did they show disdain for other religions? Again...if the senators have a problem with it then that's one thing.

I didn't say they showed disdain for other religions... What I meant by that is that whether they are a christian or they hate christians it should not effect how the do their job.

Be careful that you don't deny them the very thing you want yourself. Religious freedom.

I am not trying to take anything away from anyone. Having religious freedom does not mean we have to publicly announce our beliefs everywhere we go, especially where it does not belong.

Edit:

If they don't, then everyone else should butt out.

That is why this country is in the shape it is in now, when it comes to the government we should be right in there face, making sure they are doing what we put them in office to do...

 

[Lycan]

Why do they have to acknowledge every belief system? How about just the belief system of those present?

Because they are not there for just themselves...

 

[Melody]

Because they are not there for just themselves...

You still haven't given me one good reason why, if the entire senate wants prayer before they start, why they can't have it.

They aren't forcing you to pray. They aren't forcing any of the senate members to pray. They aren't passing laws for you to pray.

I see no logical reason why it should offend anyone that they pray when their prayer has no bearing on their lawmaking.

 

[Melody]

I didn't say they showed disdain for other religions... What I meant by that is that whether they are a christian or they hate christians it should not effect how the do their job.

I am not trying to take anything away from anyone. Having religious freedom does not mean we have to publicly announce our beliefs everywhere we go, especially where it does not belong.

Right....and so why can't they pray? What does this have to do with how they do their job?

But you are taking something away. You are taking away their right to pray.

 

[lilithu]

You still haven't given me one good reason why, if the entire senate wants prayer before they start, why they can't have it.

Define "good reason." I personally thought Lycan's reason was quite good.

Lycan said "because they are not there for just themselves," meaning that they, as elected representatives acting within the capacity of their jobs, do not act on behalf of just themselves. What they do in that room is on behalf of everybody that they represent. In effect, when a clergyman (or woman) is invited in to pray for the senators they are praying for all the people as well. Someone is praying on your behalf to a god that you don't necessarily believe in. Personally, I am not offended by such things but I can see why others would be. It's presumptuous and better avoided.

As someone else said, nothing is stopping each senator from asking for guidance from his or her deity on an individual level.

 

[Melody]

What they do in that room is on behalf of everybody that they represent. In effect, when a clergyman (or woman) is invited in to pray for the senators they are praying for all the people as well. Someone is praying on your behalf to a god that you don't necessarily believe in.

So why do you care...if you don't believe in their God? How does it harm you that they are asking *their* God to guide them and give them wisdom...as long as they aren't making laws in their God's name?

 

[Lycan]

So why do you care...if you don't believe in their God?

Because it is a public display of a single religion in a place where all people are being represented.

How does it harm you that they are asking *their* God to guide them and give them wisdom...as long as they aren't making laws in their God's name?

It doesn't "harm" me, but that doesn't make it right. If the beliefs of all people they represent could be publicly acknowledged I would have absolutely no problem with it, but that is not possible, so there should be no public observance of any of them.

But you are taking something away. You are taking away their right to pray.

I am not taking anything.... Why does that prayer have to happen right at that moment and publicly? People get too over-excited about the whole freedom of religion thing IMHO, it isn't enough to be able to believe anything you want, no, everyone wants to shout it from the rooftops and declare to the world what they believe. It seems that a silent prayer to ones self is not enough it has to be broadcast to show everyone what great (insert religion of choice here) they are. I am not denying them their beliefs, I just feel that they are there to speak for all of us, and because we do not all share the same faith, it should not play a public part in their official duties.

 

[Melody]

I am not denying them their beliefs, I just feel that they are there to speak for all of us, and because we do not all share the same faith, it should not play a public part in their official duties.

But they're not asking or requiring that you share their faith. They are merely taking a moment to connect with their faith because they believe God will give them guidance. If they're all in agreement that they want a prayer, then I do not see the problem.

 

[ayani]

while i don't agree with everything this man said in his speech (and i consider it more an opinionated speech than a prayer, really) i agree that it took guts to speak his mind. however, i also feel that prayers to God in senate are inappropriate, especially in the manner this man used prayer. praying silently or generally for guidance should be fine- but using prayer to spell out one's political beliefs to others in a house of government is both alienating and not neccasary. speak your mind- but don't imply that God should forgive others for going against this man's personal views.