A Pastor With Guts

[Lycan]

But they're not asking or requiring that you share their faith. They are merely taking a moment to connect with their faith because they believe God will give them guidance. If they're all in agreement that they want a prayer, then I do not see the problem.

And I am not asking that they share mine...besides, they can't ask for guidence before they get there? the night before? that morning? in their office? Why does it have to be then and in a public forum that they broadcast their faith?
The problem I have is they are doing it publicly.... if they can't observe all publicly then don't observe any... and yes they are taking a moment of my time and your time and their time (and every other voters time) to observe only their god and in that they represent all of us, that is unacceptable.

 

[lilithu]

Matthew 6: 5-6

When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites! They love to stand up and pray in the houses of worship and on the street corners, so that everyone will see them. I assure you, they have already been paid in full. But when you pray, go to your room, close the door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what you do in private, will reward you.

 

[Melody]

and yes they are taking a moment of my time and your time and their time (and every other voters time) to observe only their god and in that they represent all of us, that is unacceptable.

Sorry...we'll just have to disagree. They aren't taking any of your time to pray to their God. And as long as they aren't making laws or forcing anyone else, I don't see how it's anyone else's business. Now, if even one member dissents, then yes it should be discontinued, but if they all agree, I don't see the problem. So...we'll disagree.

 

[Melody]

Matthew 6: 5-6

When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites! They love to stand up and pray in the houses of worship and on the street corners, so that everyone will see them. I assure you, they have already been paid in full. But when you pray, go to your room, close the door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what you do in private, will reward you.

Lilithu,
I didn't say I agreed with their need for public display. I agree with the above sentiment.

How's that for making the waters muddy?

 

[Lycan]

Lilithu,
I didn't say I agreed with their need for public display. I agree with the above sentiment.

uhhh, then what part of my point did you not get?

 

[lilithu]

So why do you care...if you don't believe in their God? How does it harm you that they are asking *their* God to guide them and give them wisdom...as long as they aren't making laws in their God's name?

I don't care, personally. Since I personally believe that there is only one God who can be viewed in countless ways (including as multiple gods or as no god), everyone's god is my God as far as I am concerned. As long as you pray to your god in good faith, you can pray for me all you want.

But other people do care, and I can see why they care.

Imagine this: Imagine that you are Christian but most of the U.S. is Hindu. Not just Hindu, but most are devotees of the goddess Kali. Kali, in case you're unfamiliar with her, is black as night. She has a third eye in the middle of her forehead. She has four arms. In one hand she carries a sickle, in another a bowl full of demon's blood, in another a severed head. She wears a necklace of human skulls and a girdle of human arms and legs. She dances wildly on the cremation grounds, blood dripping from her mouth and covered in the ashes of burnt human bodies. That is Kali. As a Christian, this goddess would completely foreign to you, if not fearsome and even repulsive. (Personally, I think she's beautiful!)

Now imagine your senator, the person that you voted for to represent your interests, meeting with other senators in a building operated by your tax dollars, for the purpose of creating laws that you will be subject to. Imagine them praying to Kali for guidance. They're not forcing you to pray to Kali. They're just doing it for their own guidance and everyone in that room agrees with it. How would you feel about that?

 

[ness]

Now imagine your senator, the person that you voted for to represent your interests, meeting with other senators in a building operated by your tax dollars, for the purpose of creating laws that you will be subject to. Imagine them praying to Kali for guidance. They're not forcing you to pray to Kali. They're just doing it for their own guidance and everyone in that room agrees with it. How would you feel about that?

Excellent post lili :woohoo:

 

[Melody]

uhhh, then what part of my point did you not get?

I don't agree that you have the right to tell a group of people who choose to pray, when and where they can pray. Their praying is not your business unless they're forcing you to pray as well.

 

[Melody]

Now imagine your senator, the person that you voted for to represent your interests, meeting with other senators in a building operated by your tax dollars, for the purpose of creating laws that you will be subject to. Imagine them praying to Kali for guidance. They're not forcing you to pray to Kali. They're just doing it for their own guidance and everyone in that room agrees with it. How would you feel about that?

I don't have a problem with it....as long as they aren't making laws based on their religious beliefs....or force me to pray to their God.

 

[Melody]

My husband has given me the only logical answer to why it shouldn't be permitted and I agree with him. If there is even one dissenter, they may not feel free to dissent because of the possible repercussions -- whether it's a politician who worries about getting re-elected or a first grade student who now becomes an outcast.

 

[ness]

My husband has given me the only logical answer to why it shouldn't be permitted and I agree with him. If there is even one dissenter, they may not feel free to dissent because of the possible repercussions -- whether it's a politician who worries about getting re-elected or a first grade student who now becomes an outcast.

Frublas for the hubby except I dont know if he comes to the forums or not so Ill give em to you instead :woohoo:

 

[lilithu]

I don't have a problem with it....as long as they aren't making laws based on their religious beliefs....or force me to pray to their God.

OK! But other people would. And as elected representatives acting in the capacity of their office, they have to take into account what other people would think.

Also, wouldn't it be harder for people to believe that the senators are not being influenced by their own religious beliefs if they make their laws right after a prayer. with it fresh in their minds? If one prays to one's god for guidance, wouldn't one then be more likely to believe that one should make laws that are in keeping with the directives of one's god?

 

[Lycan]

I don't agree that you have the right to tell a group of people who choose to pray, when and where they can pray. Their praying is not your business unless they're forcing you to pray as well.

I am not talking about just any group, I am talking about a group of people elected into public office to uphold the public trust. Public displays of their religion not only undermines the trust that they will not use their religious views to make laws, but also undermines their ability to represent ALL of the people that voted for them equally. What elected officials do "at work" is every bit my business as well as everyone else's. It is not only our business, but our responsibility to know what they are doing and why.

 

[Melody]

Also, wouldn't it be harder for people to believe that the senators are not being influenced by their own religious beliefs if they make their laws right after a prayer. with it fresh in their minds? If one prays to one's god for guidance, wouldn't one then be more likely to believe that one should make laws that are in keeping with the directives of one's god?

My husband made that argument as well, but my response was that even if they didn't publicly pray, what makes him think their religious convictions aren't swaying their political decisions (i.e. ban against homosexual marriage).

Again, he convinced me with the view that "it looks bad" and casts doubts. I can't say I disagree with him.

Ness, my husband does not come to the forums although he's sat behind me reading a few times.

 

[Lycan]

............

 

[Melody]

............

What?

 

[Lycan]

What?

I was just confused about your agreement of basically what I said just reworded.