A problem i see with religious people

[firedragon]

When i say religious i don't mean Muslim, Christian or a Hindu alone. I mean all of those people who take everything and make a religion out of it. Even atheists, Buddhists, Agnostics, etc. I feel that the day Aliens ascend or if they emerge they will be the same. Some may get offended of course, but i have found this forum has people who provide very decent food for thought so here goes.

A Muslim will have a discussion with another Muslim about a particular viewpoint in theology. One person is very highly educated and the other is not but he pretends to be highly educated in theology. Very very quickly he moves to call the other person by a sectarian, habitual phrase like Munafiq or hypocrite, moderate, Zindiq or heretic, etc etc. This is the habit of being sectarian. Whenever someone is bringing some insight they immediately put them into a bracket. A sectarian bracket. But when you question them they are also very quick to say "I dont belong to a sect".

A Christian will have a discussion with another Christian or even a Muslim who maybe educated in Christian theology. One person will pretend to be very highly educated. Why?

An atheist can be the same. He too can be very religious in his sentiments. "I am scientific, you are not capable of being like me". My group is my tribe. Many atheists also pretend to be highly educated in theology.

Why do people pretend to be highly educated? Isn't it more honourable to admit that one may lack in knowledge about a particular topic they are discussing and learn something? I have seen many Christians and Muslims debate with very highly educated Atheists pretending they are too, and of course, vise versa.

One young man, a Muslim claims he has a bachelors degree in theology but doesn't know a single word of arabic or the fundamentals taught in your first semester. Doesnt get embarrassed but opts to keep pretending and call the cavalry in slamming the other. A Christian claims to be a Phd but isn't. An atheist claims "you are dumb and stupid because you are a Christian" but he doesnt know the very fundamental of physics though he claims he is very highly educated in it.

My question is this. In a world where we are just typing on a keyboard, remotely connected, without any real human ties to lose face, why do we have to have such an egoistic position of "no yielding no matter what"? Why cant we ask questions rather than pretending to penalise. Why do we have to immediately put people into a sectarian bracket and cast them out rather than following their thought pattern and analyse to make deduction?

Is that a human need? What is this need. Most of us will concede and meekly believe every whim the superiors of our tribe teaches us in our madrasas, seminaries or groups but immediately bracket out the rest or others as "those".

What is this issue with us?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Ego

 

[BSM1]

Many of the religious people that I have met would rather be 'right' than informed...

 

[firedragon]

Many of the religious people that I have met would rather be 'right' than informed...

Hmm. Interesting.

 

[firedragon]

Many of the religious people that I have met would rather be 'right' than informed...

You know what! Im gonna steal this for my own purposes.

 

[Augustus]

A Muslim will have a discussion with another Muslim about a particular viewpoint in theology. One person is very highly educated and the other is not but he pretends to be highly educated in theology. Very very quickly he moves to call the other person by a sectarian, habitual phrase like Munafiq or hypocrite, moderate, Zindiq or heretic, etc etc. This is the habit of being sectarian. Whenever someone is bringing some insight they immediately put them into a bracket. A sectarian bracket. But when you question them they are also very quick to say "I dont belong to a sect"...

What is this issue with us?

Biology and evolved cognition.

We evolved in an environment where building coalitions was a matter of life and death. We often have a need to signal to others that we are part of the group and one way to do this is to publicly call out those who are not "good" group members.

We also get very defensive when we deem that others are 'challenging' our status as good group members. So if someone identifies a point of theology or secular ideology that you may not be correct on, you feel the need to reassert your correctness, and that the other person is a 'deviant'. Once group identity is challenged, all sense of reason often goes out of the window.

As you note, while it obviously applies to the religious, it's not just religious people. Some people who identify as 'Rationalists' are often among the worst offenders. This is because many believe they are 'post-ideological', and when you tie your sense of identity to your own rationality admitting you are wrong requires accepting you have been promoting irrational views which is a very big cognitive hurdle to overcome (There was a guy who used to post here years ago who actually claimed that 100% of his beliefs were based on the rational consideration of evidence. Once you have publicly stated this it becomes almost impossible to ever admit you are wrong).

The same is true with religious fundamentalists as they have paced a high premium on their doctrinal correctness, and consequently the incorrectness of others. Even admitting one error can often be beyond the pale.

Sense of identity is a killer for honest, rational and fair minded thought, whereas on issues we have no emotional investment in, or haven't publicly staked our 'reputation' on, it is much easier to admit error or lack of understanding.

 

[BSM1]

You know what! Im gonna steal this for my own purposes.

Be my guest...

 

[firedragon]

Biology and evolved cognition.

We evolved in an environment where building coalitions was a matter of life and death. We often have a need to signal to others that we are part of the group and one way to do this is to publicly call out those who are not "good" group members.

We also get very defensive when we deem that others are 'challenging' our status as good group members. So if someone identifies a point of theology or secular ideology that you may not be correct on, you feel the need to reassert your correctness, and that the other person is a 'deviant'. Once group identity is challenged, all sense of reason often goes out of the window.

As you note, while it obviously applies to the religious, it's not just religious people. Some people who identify as 'Rationalists' are often among the worst offenders. This is because many believe they are 'post-ideological', and when you tie your sense of identity to your own rationality admitting you are wrong requires accepting you have been promoting irrational views which is a very big cognitive hurdle to overcome (There was a guy who used to post here years ago who actually claimed that 100% of his beliefs were based on the rational consideration of evidence. Once you have publicly stated this it becomes almost impossible to ever admit you are wrong).

The same is true with religious fundamentalists as they have paced a high premium on their doctrinal correctness, and consequently the incorrectness of others. Even admitting one error can often be beyond the pale.

Sense of identity is a killer for honest, rational and fair minded thought, whereas on issues we have no emotional investment in, or haven't publicly staked our 'reputation' on, it is much easier to admit error or lack of understanding.

Excellent. I agree totally and thank you very much. you are absolutely right.

 

[pearl]

Many of the religious people that I have met would rather be 'right' than informed...

Sometimes the differences are just that, different, neither right or wrong. That seems to me to be the first hurdle to overcome in any meaningful discussion.

 

[columbus]

Here's what I think the main problem is.

There's no objective standards in religion. Two religious people, even in the same denomination, may well have different interpretations and attitudes towards anything from Scripture to history to an image of God. And while one might have better education about what other people believe(i.e. degrees) it's still just subjective opinions about the unknowable. Whether religion contains any objective truth or not, there's no way to falsify any truly religious claim. So, the most poorly thought out, irrational, opinion has as much authority as any other.

Once one has separated their beliefs and worldview from evidence and reason, one could believe almost anything.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When i say religious i don't mean Muslim, Christian or a Hindu alone. I mean all of those people who take everything and make a religion out of it. Even atheists, Buddhists, Agnostics, etc. I feel that the day Aliens ascend or if they emerge they will be the same. Some may get offended of course, but i have found this forum has people who provide very decent food for thought so here goes.

A Muslim will have a discussion with another Muslim about a particular viewpoint in theology. One person is very highly educated and the other is not but he pretends to be highly educated in theology. Very very quickly he moves to call the other person by a sectarian, habitual phrase like Munafiq or hypocrite, moderate, Zindiq or heretic, etc etc. This is the habit of being sectarian. Whenever someone is bringing some insight they immediately put them into a bracket. A sectarian bracket. But when you question them they are also very quick to say "I dont belong to a sect".

A Christian will have a discussion with another Christian or even a Muslim who maybe educated in Christian theology. One person will pretend to be very highly educated. Why?

An atheist can be the same. He too can be very religious in his sentiments. "I am scientific, you are not capable of being like me". My group is my tribe. Many atheists also pretend to be highly educated in theology.

Why do people pretend to be highly educated? Isn't it more honourable to admit that one may lack in knowledge about a particular topic they are discussing and learn something? I have seen many Christians and Muslims debate with very highly educated Atheists pretending they are too, and of course, vise versa.

One young man, a Muslim claims he has a bachelors degree in theology but doesn't know a single word of arabic or the fundamentals taught in your first semester. Doesnt get embarrassed but opts to keep pretending and call the cavalry in slamming the other. A Christian claims to be a Phd but isn't. An atheist claims "you are dumb and stupid because you are a Christian" but he doesnt know the very fundamental of physics though he claims he is very highly educated in it.

My question is this. In a world where we are just typing on a keyboard, remotely connected, without any real human ties to lose face, why do we have to have such an egoistic position of "no yielding no matter what"? Why cant we ask questions rather than pretending to penalise. Why do we have to immediately put people into a sectarian bracket and cast them out rather than following their thought pattern and analyse to make deduction?

Is that a human need? What is this need. Most of us will concede and meekly believe every whim the superiors of our tribe teaches us in our madrasas, seminaries or groups but immediately bracket out the rest or others as "those".

What is this issue with us?

So you take "religious" to mean something like "inflexible, exclusionary, and falsely claiming to be knowledgeable?"

 

[BSM1]

Sometimes the differences are just that, different, neither right or wrong. That seems to me to be the first hurdle to overcome in any meaningful discussion.

Except when you are convinced that your truth is the only truth and you refuse to consider the truth of others. Then there is no discussion...

 

[pearl]

Except when you are convinced that your truth is the only truth and you refuse to consider the truth of others. Then there is no discussion...

That was the point, there can be no discussion, only debate.

 

[BSM1]

That was the point, there can be no discussion, only debate.

I went back and re-read it. I see what you're saying.

 

[PureX]

My question is this. In a world where we are just typing on a keyboard, remotely connected, without any real human ties to lose face, why do we have to have such an egoistic position of "no yielding no matter what"? Why cant we ask questions rather than pretending to penalise. Why do we have to immediately put people into a sectarian bracket and cast them out rather than following their thought pattern and analyse to make deduction?

Is that a human need? What is this need. Most of us will concede and meekly believe every whim the superiors of our tribe teaches us in our madrasas, seminaries or groups but immediately bracket out the rest or others as "those".

What is this issue with us?

Ego is an internal mechanism intent on protecting an internalized concept of self. So it matters little that we are on a keyboard, or face to face. The self-protect mechanism in in us, and will do what it exists to do unless we make a conscious effort to restrain it. And sadly, few people living in modern culture are aware of the age-old practice of restraining the ego for the sake of gaining in wisdom. And as a result, most people are living in a perpetual state of 'auto-defense', and as a result of that, tend to learn very little from their interactions with others ... especially about themselves.

 

[firedragon]

So you take "religious" to mean something like "inflexible, exclusionary, and falsely claiming to be knowledgeable?"

Read again brother. Read slowly.

 

[j1i]

When i say religious i don't mean Muslim, Christian or a Hindu alone. I mean all of those people who take everything and make a religion out of it. Even atheists, Buddhists, Agnostics, etc. I feel that the day Aliens ascend or if they emerge they will be the same. Some may get offended of course, but i have found this forum has people who provide very decent food for thought so here goes.

A Muslim will have a discussion with another Muslim about a particular viewpoint in theology. One person is very highly educated and the other is not but he pretends to be highly educated in theology. Very very quickly he moves to call the other person by a sectarian, habitual phrase like Munafiq or hypocrite, moderate, Zindiq or heretic, etc etc. This is the habit of being sectarian. Whenever someone is bringing some insight they immediately put them into a bracket. A sectarian bracket. But when you question them they are also very quick to say "I dont belong to a sect".

A Christian will have a discussion with another Christian or even a Muslim who maybe educated in Christian theology. One person will pretend to be very highly educated. Why?

An atheist can be the same. He too can be very religious in his sentiments. "I am scientific, you are not capable of being like me". My group is my tribe. Many atheists also pretend to be highly educated in theology.

Why do people pretend to be highly educated? Isn't it more honourable to admit that one may lack in knowledge about a particular topic they are discussing and learn something? I have seen many Christians and Muslims debate with very highly educated Atheists pretending they are too, and of course, vise versa.

One young man, a Muslim claims he has a bachelors degree in theology but doesn't know a single word of arabic or the fundamentals taught in your first semester. Doesnt get embarrassed but opts to keep pretending and call the cavalry in slamming the other. A Christian claims to be a Phd but isn't. An atheist claims "you are dumb and stupid because you are a Christian" but he doesnt know the very fundamental of physics though he claims he is very highly educated in it.

My question is this. In a world where we are just typing on a keyboard, remotely connected, without any real human ties to lose face, why do we have to have such an egoistic position of "no yielding no matter what"? Why cant we ask questions rather than pretending to penalise. Why do we have to immediately put people into a sectarian bracket and cast them out rather than following their thought pattern and analyse to make deduction?

Is that a human need? What is this need. Most of us will concede and meekly believe every whim the superiors of our tribe teaches us in our madrasas, seminaries or groups but immediately bracket out the rest or others as "those".

What is this issue with us?

Brother, I do not know how to explain things
But it is normal for others to enter here
Forums are here to convey ideas and it is normal as different to express different points of view

The head of state votes for him ignorant and the world, and it is one of their rights
Participation here is not missionary, as I think, but participation
Show my thoughts differently and gain feedback (I consider it a lesson in my life) because I said such and I got such an answer.

Have you read the forum rules?
There is no law that requires me to obtain a high degree in Theology to participate

From my opinion, I am happy to participate and develop controversial topics that stimulate my memory and cognitive powers
And if I am weak in transmitting the information, I must have given a dose of life like a glass of water

 

[firedragon]

Here's what I think the main problem is.

There's no objective standards in religion. Two religious people, even in the same denomination, may well have different interpretations and attitudes towards anything from Scripture to history to an image of God. And while one might have better education about what other people believe(i.e. degrees) it's still just subjective opinions about the unknowable. Whether religion contains any objective truth or not, there's no way to falsify any truly religious claim. So, the most poorly thought out, irrational, opinion has as much authority as any other.

Once one has separated their beliefs and worldview from evidence and reason, one could believe almost anything.
Tom

The thing is there are those who claim to be Atheists who are also so religious and fits the bill you have developed up there perfectly. Only thing is, i dont know what kind of denomination they could have and that could be an interesting thing to think about.

 

[firedragon]

Brother, I do not know how to explain things
But it is normal for others to enter here
Forums are here to convey ideas and it is normal as different to express different points of view

The head of state votes for him ignorant and the world, and it is one of their rights
Participation here is not missionary, as I think, but participation
Show my thoughts differently and gain feedback (I consider it a lesson in my life) because I said such and I got such an answer.

Have you read the forum rules?
There is no law that requires me to obtain a high degree in Theology to participate

From my opinion, I am happy to participate and develop controversial topics that stimulate my memory and cognitive powers
And if I am weak in transmitting the information, I must have given a dose of life like a glass of water

Thanks.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Read again brother. Read slowly.

I did. You laid out very clearly how when atheists (and others) act like egotistical jerks, they're practicing "religion."