A proposed solution for Young Earth Creationism

[ElishaElijah]

Those who need to be told what to do and fear punishment if they don't are those in danger of psychopathy. They have no internal moral sense, only one dictated by authority. Sound familiar?

Sounds familiar for criminals, I believe human beings get their conscience from their creator and where we get our moral compass to know right from wrong. My respect and love for God, what He has done for me in Christ Jesus is my motivation for considering other people and not myself and my desires all the time. I don’t need a cop with a radar gun to drive the speed limit.

 

[Polymath257]

Sounds familiar for criminals, I believe human beings get their conscience from their creator and where we get our moral compass to know right from wrong. My respect and love for God, what He has done for me in Christ Jesus is my motivation for considering other people and not myself and my desires all the time. I don’t need a cop with a radar gun to drive the speed limit.

While I believe we don't need a deity to have a moral compass. We get it from a sense of fairness and a sense of compassion. We know what is right and wrong based on how it affects others.

And if you did not believe in a deity, would you drive the speed limit still? if you did not believe in a deity, would you kill others? if you did not believe in a deity, would you steal and lie?

If so, I sincerely HOPE you continue to believe in your deity. If you don't have a moral compass within yourself, then it is good you have *something* to give you one. I just hope that you reject all of the immoral teachings of your particular religion.

Because that is one of the problems with getting morals from a religion. If you become convinced your deity wants you do do something, you consider that enough justification to do it, even if it is actually immoral. That is why, for example, people hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings: they believe their deity said it was a good thing to do.

So, *if* you manage to get a moral compass from your religion that is reliable, then go for it. I consider it far better to have a moral compass without having to believe in an external source for it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Totally bogus reasoning.

Wauw. My mind is so blown by the amazingly well argued case you presented.

Obviously morality begins and ends in the heart and brain, not in the behavior.

Obviously it does not.
1. the heart is a muscle that pumps blood

2. what happens in the brain and which does not come out as behavior, has no moral implications whatsoever. If in my mind I smack you upside the head with a baseball bat, but in the real world I just say a friendly "hello" and buy you a drink, then I did not engage in anything immoral.

And you missed the point as usual.

As usual, you accuse others of your own faults.

 

[Valjean]

Why should that be a thing in a godless universe?

Why not? We're social animals, aren't we? Altruism, group loyalty and a sense of fairness were selective, they're hard-wired.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There's another aspect to this that you are also missing... If I create a race of AI's with Free Will and they start rampaging, and destroying and acting in ways I never programmed them to act, I would have a responsibility to destroy them, as the authority who brought them into existence.
God killing someone is just him removing a creature from the board that he put on the board to begin with.

It would be immoral for creating them to begin with.

In fact, today in the software engineering world, the ethical implications of creating AI's are heavily debated.

This is what moral agents do. They think before they act.
So gratz, you just provided us with more evidence that this god of yours acts in immoral and unethical ways.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

... marked by a lack of remorse for one's actions, an absence of empathy for others...

That's the part that makes them incapable of moral reasoning.
That's why they have to rely on perceived authorities to tell them what is moral and immoral.
If they are going to care about that at all, off course.

Psychopaths don’t listen to anyone and have no conscience or morality.

Exactly. They have no conscience or moral reasoning abilities.
Hence why they have to rely on perceived authorities to tell them what is and isn't moral.


You simply confirmed what I said.

Empathy is a central trait allowing for moral reasoning.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Lol, no, in a godless universe we're just animals.
And animals rule by force.

All animal species, including humans, have their own social structure and social contracts.
We are all "just animals". That doesn't mean that all animals should behave in the same way.

Chimps don't act like polar bears.
Lions don't act like wolves.
Why should humans act like anything other then humans?

As usually, your dogmatic fundamentalist beliefs are clouding your brain and making sure you don't think things through.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Then he is still immoral. going ahead with a creation with a condition you *know* will produce untold pain and suffering simply because you want to see what free will looks like seems very immoral.

If it is the best of all possible worlds having free will, then make a world without it.

Lol, your whole assumption here is that you know better than God.
Obviously if it's the best of all possible worlds then a world without free will be worse.

 

[Wildswanderer]

All animal species, including humans, have their own social structure and social contracts.

That has nothing to do with morality. Unless morality comes from an objective, ultimate source, it's just whatever you want it to be at the moment....it totally relative. I can decide morality is whatever I want it to be.

 

[ElishaElijah]

If so, I sincerely HOPE you continue to believe in your deity. If you don't have a moral compass within yourself, then it is good you have *something* to give you one. I just hope that you reject all of the immoral teachings of your particular religion.

Like I said I believe everyone has a moral compass and that compass comes from God. Do you know the moral teachings of the Bible? We could start with the 10 Commandments, are they immoral?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Why not? We're social animals, aren't we? Altruism, group loyalty and a sense of fairness were selective, they're hard-wired.

Really? Most people are inherently selfish. Especially if they have no moral code that is passed down to them through a belief system.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Psychopaths don’t obey or have any authority they do whatever they feel like doing.

That is simply not true.

You seems to have missed (or ignore?) 2 words of @Polymath257 's post.

Psychopaths still care about self-preservation. So they will obey those perceived authorities that they fear (there's the 2 words you ignored).


I used this example before when people were to stubborn to comprehend...
There's an experiment one can do which tells you which children have psychopathic tendencies.
Here's how it goes...

The setting is a classroom.
There's a general rule that students aren't allowed to drink or eat in the classroom.
One day, it is incredibly hot outside. The teacher tells the children that for once, they are allowed to drink in the classroom. You then ask the kids, if the teacher says that, is it then okay to drink in the classroom?

All children will say yes. They understand how it makes sense to break the rule (since it's hot and people get more thirsty). They also understand that it's double okay since the teacher allows it and the teacher is the boss.

There's another general rule that states that students aren't allowed to punch their neighbor in the nose.
One day, there's a big fight on TV. I'm not at all at home in boxing, but let's say it's a Mike Tyson fight. For the special occasion, the teacher says that it's okay for students to punch their neighbor in the nose.

You then ask the kids, since the teacher allows it, is it therefor okay to punch your neighbor in the nose?
Most children will notice a problem and say "no". It's not okay. Not even if the teacher allows for it. Most children will in fact question this statement by the teacher and will judge him/her for it. They will lose respect.

One group of children however, will not see a problem. The teacher says it's okay, therefor it's okay.

This is the group that had psychopathic tendencies.

They don't see the underlying problem of punching someone. All they see is the perceived authority allowing it.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This is what moral agents do. They think before they act.

Of course God thinks before he acts, although being outside of time "before" is kind of a vague concept.
Why would you assume he didn't pick the best of all possible scenarios?

 

[Wildswanderer]

2. what happens in the brain and which does not come out as behavior, has no moral implications whatsoever.

Hogwash.
All wrong behavior starts in the mind and heart.
But it will bear fruit. If the inner man is corrupt, he will exhibit this in one way or another even if it's only an attitude.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sounds familiar for criminals, I believe human beings get their conscience from their creator and where we get our moral compass to know right from wrong. My respect and love for God, what He has done for me in Christ Jesus is my motivation for considering other people and not myself and my desires all the time. I don’t need a cop with a radar gun to drive the speed limit.

Why is it that I don't require such a god to consider other people and behave morally?
I sacrifice my own desires and wants all the time to help out other people accomplish their desires and wants.

I don't require a god who threatens with eternal torture to find the motivation to do so.
Doing good, is its own reward. I don't require anything else.

You do, apparently?

Be honest now... if tomorrow you lose your faith in god, do you really think that from that point on you will not find any reason or motivation to even only be nice to people?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That has nothing to do with morality

Yes it does, as morality is all about social structure and contracts.
Morality is about how you treat others.

. Unless morality comes from an objective, ultimate source, it's just whatever you want it to be at the moment....it totally relative.

Not at all.

I can decide morality is whatever I want it to be.

Nope.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Psychopaths still care about self-preservation. So they will obey those perceived authorities that they fear (there's the 2 words you ignored).

And the reason we have law enforcement, your definition is different than mine. Why do you drive the speed limit? Pay all your taxes? Speak the truth all the time and live the same way in secret as when you’re being watched?

 

[Valjean]

I suppose some sort of rule book might be useful for one without a moral compass, but I also worry that growing up with an axiomatic, unquestioned list of do's and don'ts, some of which seem completey arbitrary, might retard the development of an internalized morality, or an ability to reason morally and make independent moral decisions.

Religion can be a moral crutch

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Do you know the moral teachings of the Bible?

Yes.

It's a mixture of good ideas and really really horrible ones.

We could start with the 10 Commandments, are they immoral?

The first 4 have nothing to do with morals and everything with Jawhe's psychological insecurity, pettyness and jealousy.

The 5th (the sabbath) has nothing to do with morals. There is nothing immoral about working 7 days of the week.


The others completely ignore the contextual nature of morals.
The "not bearing false witness" one for example. aka, don't lie.

If you live in 1942 and you know that a jewish family is hiding in a barn and the gestapo comes at your door asking if you know where they are, would you tell them the truth or would you lie?

I say that the moral thing to do there, is to lie, since telling the truth would be like signing the family's death sentence, and a very gruesome one at that.

But even ignoring the fact that it doesn't particularly mention the contextual nature of such things, the first 5 have NOTHING to do with morality.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Really? Most people are inherently selfish. Especially if they have no moral code that is passed down to them through a belief system.

That is not my experience at all.