A question about the honesty of the intelligence claims to be God!

[Raleigh]

I have a question about the Quran/Islam. First of all, don't take me wrongly, you all are great people. So, I'm not asking this question to personally attack you. Instead, I'm asking this to show you an issue with Abrahamic religions as in general.

So here is a hypothetical scenario to explain the issue:

Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God and on the other hand Gabriel states that Allah is the God. Since he has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to so many Christian leaders and tries to clarify this point (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leaders? Will they tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true?

Let me show you the issue here:

Based on recorded events we know that either Christian leaders would think that prophet Muhammad is crazy to think that Allah is the God or if not Christian leaders would think that an intelligence is deceiving prophet Muhammad(Cause by the 7th century, Christian leaders believe that Jesus is the God's son). And better than anyone else Christian leaders know who their God is (even before Prophet Muhammad was born to the world they know this. So prophet Muhammad should not say that Jesus is not the Son of God and tell that Allah is the God.). Because of this controversy, I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)? This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

(To make sense of this issue, you can also imagine the scenario where an intelligence speaking to you today and telling you that Leonardo is the God and Jesus is a prophet sent by God(Leonardo). And now you are conveying this message to Christian leaders. What will they think of you? Crazy? Or someone is deceiving you? On the other hand, someone can ask the question, “how did you come to the conclusion that Leonardo is the true God; how do you know if an intelligence is not deceiving you?” In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was lying or not?)

(Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

Because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders.

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan. However, the Quran clearly says the following:

i). “The Quran (Q21:91 and Q66:12) says that God blew through his angel into Mary and she, although being chaste bore Jesus without any father.”

ii). Further the Quran says:
Quran 3:42 '... O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds'

Quran 5:75 '... His (Jesus) mother (Mary) was a woman of truth.'

Quran 21:91 'And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of our spirit and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.'

Quran 3:3 'She was assigned to the care of Zachariah.' (Guardian & Uncle)
Source: https://www.islamicity.org/5645/mary-and-jesus-in-islam/

Meaning, whatever Christian leaders believe, is because of Allah's actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders(till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years(had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst. Cause because of the Quran, now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs.

Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

 

[Left Coast]

I have a question about the Quran/Islam. First of all, don't take me wrongly, you all are great people. So, I'm not asking this question to personally attack you. Instead, I'm asking this to show you an issue with Abrahamic religions as in general.

So here is a hypothetical scenario to explain the issue:

Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God and on the other hand Gabriel states that Allah is the God. Since he has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to so many Christian leaders and tries to clarify this point (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leaders? Will they tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true?

Let me show you the issue here:

Based on recorded events we know that either Christian leaders would think that prophet Muhammad is crazy to think that Allah is the God or if not Christian leaders would think that an intelligence is deceiving prophet Muhammad(Cause by the 7th century, Christian leaders believe that Jesus is the God's son). And better than anyone else Christian leaders know who their God is (even before Prophet Muhammad was born to the world they know this. So prophet Muhammad should not say that Jesus is not the Son of God and tell that Allah is the God.). Because of this controversy, I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)? This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

(To make sense of this issue, you can also imagine the scenario where an intelligence speaking to you today and telling you that Leonardo is the God and Jesus is a prophet sent by God(Leonardo). And now you are conveying this message to Christian leaders. What will they think of you? Crazy? Or someone is deceiving you? On the other hand, someone can ask the question, “how did you come to the conclusion that Leonardo is the true God; how do you know if an intelligence is not deceiving you?” In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was lying or not?)

(Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

Because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders.

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan. However, the Quran clearly says the following:

i). “The Quran (Q21:91 and Q66:12) says that God blew through his angel into Mary and she, although being chaste bore Jesus without any father.”

ii). Further the Quran says:
Quran 3:42 '... O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds'

Quran 5:75 '... His (Jesus) mother (Mary) was a woman of truth.'

Quran 21:91 'And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of our spirit and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.'

Quran 3:3 'She was assigned to the care of Zachariah.' (Guardian & Uncle)
Source: https://www.islamicity.org/5645/mary-and-jesus-in-islam/

Meaning, whatever Christian leaders believe, is because of Allah's actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders(till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years(had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst. Cause because of the Quran, now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs.

Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

You bring up a valid criticism, but one that extends beyond Islam to anyone who claims a deity has spoken to them. It implicates all the varieties of Abrahamic religion, and probably others as well.

 

[danieldemol]

How can we explain these controversies?

By seeing all [ETA Abrahamic] religion as man-made attempts at understanding God.

 

[Valjean]

By seeing all religion as man-made attempts at understanding God.

Wouldn't the god concept have to predate the attempt to understand him/her/it/them?
It seems to me many religions attempt to 'explain' natural phenomena or events, make predictions or exert some measure of control.

 

[danieldemol]

Wouldn't the god concept have to predate the attempt to understand him/her/it/them?
It seems to me many religions attempt to 'explain' natural phenomena or events, make predictions or exert some measure of control.

I'm not sure i understand your question, the concept we have of God is our attempt to understand it. So why should the concept predate the understanding?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I have a question about the Quran/Islam. First of all, don't take me wrongly, you all are great people. So, I'm not asking this question to personally attack you. Instead, I'm asking this to show you an issue with Abrahamic religions as in general.

So here is a hypothetical scenario to explain the issue:

Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God and on the other hand Gabriel states that Allah is the God. Since he has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to so many Christian leaders and tries to clarify this point (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leaders? Will they tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true?

Let me show you the issue here:

Based on recorded events we know that either Christian leaders would think that prophet Muhammad is crazy to think that Allah is the God or if not Christian leaders would think that an intelligence is deceiving prophet Muhammad(Cause by the 7th century, Christian leaders believe that Jesus is the God's son). And better than anyone else Christian leaders know who their God is (even before Prophet Muhammad was born to the world they know this. So prophet Muhammad should not say that Jesus is not the Son of God and tell that Allah is the God.). Because of this controversy, I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)? This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

(To make sense of this issue, you can also imagine the scenario where an intelligence speaking to you today and telling you that Leonardo is the God and Jesus is a prophet sent by God(Leonardo). And now you are conveying this message to Christian leaders. What will they think of you? Crazy? Or someone is deceiving you? On the other hand, someone can ask the question, “how did you come to the conclusion that Leonardo is the true God; how do you know if an intelligence is not deceiving you?” In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was lying or not?)

(Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

Because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders.

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan. However, the Quran clearly says the following:

i). “The Quran (Q21:91 and Q66:12) says that God blew through his angel into Mary and she, although being chaste bore Jesus without any father.”

ii). Further the Quran says:
Quran 3:42 '... O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds'

Quran 5:75 '... His (Jesus) mother (Mary) was a woman of truth.'

Quran 21:91 'And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of our spirit and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.'

Quran 3:3 'She was assigned to the care of Zachariah.' (Guardian & Uncle)
Source: https://www.islamicity.org/5645/mary-and-jesus-in-islam/

Meaning, whatever Christian leaders believe, is because of Allah's actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders(till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years(had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst. Cause because of the Quran, now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs.

Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

Reading through your post I kept finding words like deception, & confusion.
And I couldn’t help but think of Revelation 12:9..... “So down the Great Dragon was hurled, the original Serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; He was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.” (Verse 12 is interesting, too.)

That’s a lot of deception! Humans are easily deceived, especially when the subject touches on what they want to believe...whether it be secular or religious views.

Take care.

 

[Valjean]

I'm not sure i understand your question, the concept we have of God is our attempt to understand it. So why should the concept predate the understanding?

Why would someone attempt to understand something who's existence he's not aware of?

 

[danieldemol]

Why would someone attempt to understand something who's existence he's not aware of?

They wouldn't. I suppose I should have qualified my post #3 as abrahamic religions.

If that is what you are trying to point out then thank you.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I have a question about the Quran/Islam. First of all, don't take me wrongly, you all are great people. So, I'm not asking this question to personally attack you. Instead, I'm asking this to show you an issue with Abrahamic religions as in general.

So here is a hypothetical scenario to explain the issue:

Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God and on the other hand Gabriel states that Allah is the God. Since he has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to so many Christian leaders and tries to clarify this point (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leaders? Will they tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true?

Let me show you the issue here:

Based on recorded events we know that either Christian leaders would think that prophet Muhammad is crazy to think that Allah is the God or if not Christian leaders would think that an intelligence is deceiving prophet Muhammad(Cause by the 7th century, Christian leaders believe that Jesus is the God's son). And better than anyone else Christian leaders know who their God is (even before Prophet Muhammad was born to the world they know this. So prophet Muhammad should not say that Jesus is not the Son of God and tell that Allah is the God.). Because of this controversy, I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)? This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

(To make sense of this issue, you can also imagine the scenario where an intelligence speaking to you today and telling you that Leonardo is the God and Jesus is a prophet sent by God(Leonardo). And now you are conveying this message to Christian leaders. What will they think of you? Crazy? Or someone is deceiving you? On the other hand, someone can ask the question, “how did you come to the conclusion that Leonardo is the true God; how do you know if an intelligence is not deceiving you?” In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was lying or not?)

(Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

Because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders.

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan. However, the Quran clearly says the following:

i). “The Quran (Q21:91 and Q66:12) says that God blew through his angel into Mary and she, although being chaste bore Jesus without any father.”

ii). Further the Quran says:
Quran 3:42 '... O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds'

Quran 5:75 '... His (Jesus) mother (Mary) was a woman of truth.'

Quran 21:91 'And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of our spirit and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.'

Quran 3:3 'She was assigned to the care of Zachariah.' (Guardian & Uncle)
Source: https://www.islamicity.org/5645/mary-and-jesus-in-islam/

Meaning, whatever Christian leaders believe, is because of Allah's actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders(till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years(had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst. Cause because of the Quran, now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs.

Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

First of all, as a Muslim i am not offended from what you say

Do you know that Allah is the arabic word for God? Maybe Jews, Christians and muslims arent as far from each other as you think.
Honestly i do not have answers to all your questions but it's something to think about for sure.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm not sure i understand your question, the concept we have of God is our attempt to understand it. So why should the concept predate the understanding?

Because you'ld have to believe there is something there to be understood before you can embark on a quest to try and understand it.

 

[Left Coast]

Reading through your post I kept finding words like deception, & confusion.
And I couldn’t help but think of Revelation 12:9..... “So down the Great Dragon was hurled, the original Serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; He was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.” (Verse 12 is interesting, too.)

That’s a lot of deception! Humans are easily deceived, especially when the subject touches on what they want to believe...whether it be secular or religious views.

Take care.

You've emphasized "the entire inhabited earth" in that verse...does that mean you think your own religious views are also the result of the Devil's deception?

 

[1213]

...Because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders....

If the point was actually to say that Jesus is a messenger of God, not God himself, then it is same as what the Bible tells, because Bible tells also that there is only one true God that is greater than Jesus.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

 

[Raleigh]

You bring up a valid criticism, but one that extends beyond Islam to anyone who claims a deity has spoken to them. It implicates all the varieties of Abrahamic religion, and probably others as well.

That's true. Solving human conflicts is a tough task. Especially religious beliefs. When we analyze these reported claims, we cannot find convincing evidence to conclude that an intelligence who actually understands how to resolve human conflicts/issues has even spoken to human beings. People don't see the big picture here.

By seeing all [ETA Abrahamic] religion as man-made attempts at understanding God.

But people claim that an intelligence claims to be God speak to them. They all talk about miracles. And then we see books are mathematically coded. Therefore, these assumptions are also insufficient to understand the mystery.

Reading through your post I kept finding words like deception, & confusion.
And I couldn’t help but think of Revelation 12:9..... “So down the Great Dragon was hurled, the original Serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; He was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.” (Verse 12 is interesting, too.)

That’s a lot of deception! Humans are easily deceived, especially when the subject touches on what they want to believe...whether it be secular or religious views.

Take care.

But the same question applies to Christianity as well. Let's assume the father of Jesus is God and he sent his son to Earth to help humanity. But why didn't he speak to Jewish leaders and tell them that he is sending his son to Earth? Because of reported events, we know that Christianity is based on the Hebrew Bible and Christians believe that Hebrew Bible has the word of God(father of Jesus). Meaning, father of Jesus has spoken to Jewish people and their belief is due to actions performed father of Jesus. Therefore, the father of Jesus should be responsible for the religious belief that Jewish people have (if we consider this line of thinking).

For whatever reason, if they got confused, then when God sending Jesus to Earth, he should have communicated in a proper way to Jewish leaders and tell them that to resolve this, I'm sending my son to Earth. This didn't happen, Gods action ended up creating Christianity instead. Now Jewish people and Christian people found a reason to find and kill each other. Who is responsible? Father of Jesus. Because of this, either we have to say that the intelligence claims to be God(father of Jesus) didn't use common sense or else we can say that someone purposely deceived Jesus and people on Earth. If not, what reasoning can be used to explain this?

First of all, as a Muslim i am not offended from what you say

Do you know that Allah is the arabic word for God? Maybe Jews, Christians and muslims arent as far from each other as you think.
Honestly i do not have answers to all your questions but it's something to think about for sure.

Good to hear that you were not offended I knew that but I think even that word would have confused Christians without God is giving a proper explanation. Nevertheless, that doesn't explain the issue that I pointed out. And this issue is not something we can ignore either.

 

[Muffled]

I believe the text in the Qu'ran says "God is His Son" and the Muslims insert in parentheses 'May it never be' because they know exactly what the text says even though they try to deny it. So no fix is needed in the text but Muslims need to admit the truth.

 

[Muffled]

You bring up a valid criticism, but one that extends beyond Islam to anyone who claims a deity has spoken to them. It implicates all the varieties of Abrahamic religion, and probably others as well.

I believe for Christians it is a promise fulfilled but some who have trouble with it, fake it.

 

[Left Coast]

I believe the text in the Qu'ran says "God is His Son" and the Muslims insert in parentheses 'May it never be' because they know exactly what the text says even though they try to deny it. So no fix is needed in the text but Muslims need to admit the truth.

God is Jesus' Son? Typically Christians insist Jesus is God's Son.

Also, reference?

 

[Muffled]

By seeing all [ETA Abrahamic] religion as man-made attempts at understanding God.

I believe the evidence is to the contrary. Only Pagan, Hindu, Buddhist, Tao and Bahai fall into that category among todays religions

 

[Left Coast]

I believe for Christians it is a promise fulfilled but some who have trouble with it, fake it.

You believe what is a promise fulfilled? How did you determine that everyone other than Jesus who claims God spoke to them was faking it?

 

[Muffled]

God is Jesus' Son? Typically Christians insist Jesus is God's Son.

Also, reference?

I believe you misunderstood. It is saying that God is Jesus. The way you know that is by the context of the verse.

 

[Raleigh]

I believe for Christians it is a promise fulfilled but some who have trouble with it, fake it.

You have to think differently to understand the issue with Christianity. Let me copy the issue that I pointed out again:

-----------

But the same question applies to Christianity as well. Let's assume the father of Jesus is God and he sent his son to Earth to help humanity. But why didn't he speak to Jewish leaders and tell them that he is sending his son to Earth? Because of reported events, we know that Christianity is based on the Hebrew Bible and Christians believe that Hebrew Bible has the word of God(father of Jesus). Meaning, father of Jesus has spoken to Jewish people and their belief is due to actions performed father of Jesus. Therefore, the father of Jesus should be responsible for the religious belief that Jewish people have (if we consider this line of thinking).

For whatever reason, if Jewish people got confused, then when God sending Jesus to Earth, God should have communicated in a proper way to Jewish leaders and tell them that to resolve the issue, I'm sending my son to Earth. But this didn't happen(God didn't speak to Jewish leaders in a proper way). Instead, gods action ended up creating Christianity and Jewish people rejected Jesus. This made Jewish people and Christian people to argue and kill each other. Who is responsible? Father of Jesus. Because of this, either we have to say that the intelligence claims to be God(father of Jesus) didn't use common sense or else we can say that someone purposely deceived Jesus and people on Earth. If not, what reasoning can be used to explain this?