A Question for fellow Christians.

[uss_bigd]

I see things differently myself. I always worry about congregations that say that "they are the only ones saved".

just to make it clear ma'm .... I NEVER SAID "WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO WERE GOING TO BE SAVED"

i NEVER said that. besides, what are you afraid of? you dont beleive that God will make an exception for you? there is something wrong then. seek and you shall find!

all i did was read was written .... and answer your questions BASED on the bible.

BASED on bible where all of us claim to ACCEPT ...

 

[uss_bigd]

Thanks, uss_bigd. I appreciate your honesty, even though I see things differently.

that is your right ma'm

but i suggest you ask your self, " do you see things differently based on what is written"? or do you see things differently because you do not want to accept the verses you just read?

no need to tell me your answer, we are accountable to our own conscience, we all are.

it is also your right to know the truth!

 

[Katzpur]

that is your right ma'm

but i suggest you ask your self, " do you see things differently based on what is written"? or do you see things differently because you do not want to accept the verses you just read?

I see things based on what is written, what God's prophets have taught and what the Holy Ghost has confirmed to me is true.

no need to tell me your answer, we are accountable to our own conscience, we all are.

I'm glad to hear you say that.

it is also your right to know the truth!

You're right again. Indeed it is.

 

[Ratiocinative]

faith, by definition is looking forward for things to come. you can have faith, beleive in something yet not do something about it. you can say you call Jesus name, yet not live like a christian.

but still the point remains. according to the scriptures, according to verses i pasted above. THERE IS A CHURCH WITH A SPECIFIC NAME, AND BAPTISM IS A REQUIREMENT. THEY DO NOT COLLECT 10% OF YOUR INCOME AND THEY DO NOT COLLECT FROM PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT MEMBERS OF THEIR CHURCH(YET).

No, looking forward for things to come is hope. Faith is confidence or trust, and when you trust someone you will do what they say. If Peter was teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation in Acts 2:38, then why did he forget this important detail in Acts 3, when telling another crowd how to be saved in verse 19? How did the people in in Acts 4 receive the Holy Spirit, as they did in verse 31, when they were never baptized or even told about baptism? Why did Peter say in 10:43, that all the prophets bear witness to that fact that everyone how believes in Jesus' name receives forgiveness of sins, which logically includes those who believe and are baptized as well as those those who are believed and not baptized? What about Acts 15, why does Peter not mention baptism in his speech during the meeting in which leaders of the Church were discussing what must people must do to be saved? In Acts 16, the Jailer asks Paul and Silas "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?", and what as their response? "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved". Why did they not tell him baptism was part of salvation?

Furthermore, Acts 2:38 doesn't specifically mention anyone becoming saved or actually receiving the Holy Spirit, like many other passages that do not mention baptism do. How do you know whether it was a result of their repenting, baptism, or both, that would cause them to receive the Holy Spirit? From this passage alone, you can't, but from many, many, many other passages that mention repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit(Acts 3:19, 10:44), but not baptism, the only logical conclusion is that baptism is not a pre-requisite for receiving the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

See what happen when I leave for a day. WOW!!!!

 

[uss_bigd]

No, looking forward for things to come is hope. Faith is confidence or trust, and when you trust someone you will do what they say. If Peter was teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation in Acts 2:38, then why did he forget this important detail in Acts 3, when telling another crowd how to be saved in verse 19? How did the people in in Acts 4 receive the Holy Spirit, as they did in verse 31, when they were never baptized or even told about baptism? Why did Peter say in 10:43, that all the prophets bear witness to that fact that everyone how believes in Jesus' name receives forgiveness of sins, which logically includes those who believe and are baptized as well as those those who are believed and not baptized? What about Acts 15, why does Peter not mention baptism in his speech during the meeting in which leaders of the Church were discussing what must people must do to be saved? In Acts 16, the Jailer asks Paul and Silas "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?", and what as their response? "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved". Why did they not tell him baptism was part of salvation?

Furthermore, Acts 2:38 doesn't specifically mention anyone becoming saved or actually receiving the Holy Spirit, like many other passages that do not mention baptism do. How do you know whether it was a result of their repenting, baptism, or both, that would cause them to receive the Holy Spirit? From this passage alone, you can't, but from many, many, many other passages that mention repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit(Acts 3:19, 10:44), but not baptism, the only logical conclusion is that baptism is not a pre-requisite for receiving the Holy Spirit.

Sir, did you verify if Peter was talking to the same type of people in the verses you stated?

when you say same type,i mean are these people Gentiles? meaning people who were not yet followers? or people who were already baptized?

logic would dictate if he was talking to the people who were already baptized then, IS THERE A NEED TO MENTION IT AGAIN? I DON'T THINK SO SIR.

besides, "BE BAPTIZED" is a straightforward instruction to be baptized why must we get stubborn about it?

Granting your point without accepting, when Peter said repent and be baptized and never mentioned it again in the succeding chapters explain why is it no longer a requirement as he required it in ACTS 2:38?

an argument like, "well he did not mention it anymore in succeeding chapters" is just not an logical response... i suppose we all are obedient enough to accept a single mention of instructions righ? let us not allow ATHIEST to laugh at us because of our lapses in logic.

 

[Ratiocinative]

Sir, did you verify if Peter was talking to the same type of people in the verses you stated?

when you say same type,i mean are these people Gentiles? meaning people who were not yet followers? or people who were already baptized?

logic would dictate if he was talking to the people who were already baptized then, IS THERE A NEED TO MENTION IT AGAIN? I DON'T THINK SO SIR.

besides, "BE BAPTIZED" is a straightforward instruction to be baptized why must we get stubborn about it?

Granting your point without accepting, when Peter said repent and be baptized and never mentioned it again in the succeding chapters explain why is it no longer a requirement as he required it in ACTS 2:38?

an argument like, "well he did not mention it anymore in succeeding chapters" is just not an logical response... i suppose we all are obedient enough to accept a single mention of instructions righ? let us not allow ATHIEST to laugh at us because of our lapses in logic.

Peter was talking to Jews, and different groups of Jews through the first several chapters of Acts. Why would Peter be explaining how Christ's death was the fulfillment of God plan and the way for them to be saved, as he did in Acts 3, to people who already knew this? And if they didn't already know this, then how could they have been baptized? Being baptized is a straightforward command, and I'm not saying you shouldn't be baptized, but being baptized won't save you. The Bible is full of things we are commanded to do, but there is only one thing that saves us, faith in Christ.

 

[Sola'lor]

Peter was talking to Jews, and different groups of Jews through the first several chapters of Acts. Why would Peter be explaining how Christ's death was the fulfillment of God plan and the way for them to be saved, as he did in Acts 3, to people who already knew this? And if they didn't already know this, then how could they have been baptized? Being baptized is a straightforward command, and I'm not saying you shouldn't be baptized, but being baptized won't save you. The Bible is full of things we are commanded to do, but there is only one thing that saves us, faith in Christ.

What is the point in comamndments if they don't give you any benefit towards salvation. I agree that only through Christ can we be saved.

 

[uss_bigd]

and I'm not saying you shouldn't be baptized, but being baptized won't save you.

So, Jesus (of whom we have faith on) commanded Peter to baptize people were not really serious about it? they meant faith was enough?

if so, why weren't they serious about it? why not just be straight forward and say baptism is a joke its not serious faith in Jesus is enough?

By the way you have mot addressed all my questions in the previous post

 

[Troublemane]

let us not allow ATHIEST to laugh at us because of our lapses in logic.

Im sure an atheist will still laugh no matter what is done to avoid it.

For my part, I dont believe baptism to be anything more than a ritual that Jesus practiced to initiate people into his mystical community, called "the Kingdom of God" (John chapter 3). Later Christians required or did not require baptism in different circumstances because it was not a requirement, it was just something they did out of respect for the tradition started by Christ. (which he got from John the Baptist).

Later Christians also go confused about it, some thinking it was a requirement, some not. But belief in Jesus was never a requirement for salvation until Paul came along and equated "entry into the Kingdom of God" (i.e. to receive personal instruction from Jesus) with "entry into a [mythical] afterlife", which is something Paul made up.

The entire chapter 3 of John is clear on this: those who do not believe in Jesus simply dont get to have personal instruction from him, there is no mention of hell or going to a blissful after life--all these ideas came later, and seriously damaged the original message of Jesus, I may add.

 

[uss_bigd]

Im sure an atheist will still laugh no matter what is done to avoid it.

For my part, I dont believe baptism to be anything more than a ritual that Jesus practiced to initiate people into his mystical community, called "the Kingdom of God" (John chapter 3). Later Christians required or did not require baptism in different circumstances because it was not a requirement, it was just something they did out of respect for the tradition started by Christ. (which he got from John the Baptist).

Later Christians also go confused about it, some thinking it was a requirement, some not. But belief in Jesus was never a requirement for salvation until Paul came along and equated "entry into the Kingdom of God" (i.e. to receive personal instruction from Jesus) with "entry into a [mythical] afterlife", which is something Paul made up.

The entire chapter 3 of John is clear on this: those who do not believe in Jesus simply dont get to have personal instruction from him, there is no mention of hell or going to a blissful after life--all these ideas came later, and seriously damaged the original message of Jesus, I may add.

what is the biblical basis of your claim?? any verses that will supprt them?

 

[Troublemane]

From John Chapter 3:

"
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

Born of water and the Spirit refers to initiation into the "Kingdom of God" which is the term Jesus used for those who recieved his personal instruction. The entire chapter 3 of John describes this. Those who believe on the Son will recieve eternal life---this refers not to some mythical heaven but to recieving the gift of enlightenment, being above worldy matters (as it describes later in that chapter).

And furthermore: (John 3: 18-21)

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God"

In other words, those who do not believe in the Son will not enter into this Kingdom of God (initiation into the mystical community of Christ) and are condemned not to receive his teaching. It NEVER says anything about hell or paradise in a mythical hereafter. Its only says those who are condemned are not given a place at Jesus's side, but that anyone who does truth cannot be reproached, because they are following the path God has placed before them (last line, 21).

Baptism was in fact the means Jesus initiated people into his mystical community, which prepared them to recieve his personal instruction (as is evidenced by the last part of John 3):

"
25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

He that believeth not the Son (who does not take what he says to heart) will not see life (it is there but he does not see it) but the wrath of God abideth on him (in other words, life will be like an unending nightmare, filled with strife, if only he realized that all creation was divine then maybe, maybe he'd rise above life's petty quarrels...)

So, baptism was not the means for salvation but only the means of gaining entrance into Jesus' community of discples. Salvation comes from learning the message that all creation is the kingdom of heaven. if you believe it then you live in a world without fear, if not then you live in a world of pain and suffering. Thats all there is to it.

 

[uss_bigd]

So, baptism was not the means for salvation but only the means of gaining entrance into Jesus' community of discples. Salvation comes from learning the message that all creation is the kingdom of heaven. if you believe it then you live in a world without fear, if not then you live in a world of pain and suffering. Thats all there is to it.

let me ask you sir, are you saying you don't have to be baptized to attain salvation?

 

[sojourner]

let me ask you sir, are you saying you don't have to be baptized to attain salvation?

According to strict sola fide principle, entering into baptism is an act on our part. Since our acts do not provide salvation, baptism does not impart salvation.

Baptism is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. Once we decide to enter into baptism, we have already acknowledged our salvation.

 

[gamerlexx]

As an investigator, i've been taught that to be saved you must first have faith.

Without faith in Jesus about what you are doing, without faith in Jesus Christ then all is for nothing.

Once you have attained Faith and have a root/foundation the begginning of your relationship with God, only then can you make progress.

Once you have faith, you then require redemption for your errors in life and after this then baptism.
When you purify the body and soul it will stregthen your relationship with God.

This is what i've been taught, hope i've explained it properly

 

[gamerlexx]

As an investigator, i've been taught that to be saved you must first have faith.

Without faith in Jesus about what you are doing, without faith in Jesus Christ then all is for nothing.

Once you have attained Faith and have a root/foundation the begginning of your relationship with God, only then can you make progress.

Once you have faith, you then require redemption for your errors in life and after this then baptism.
When you purify the body and soul it will stregthen your relationship with God.

This is what i've been taught, hope i've explained it properly

 

[Katzpur]

As an investigator, i've been taught that to be saved you must first have faith.

Without faith in Jesus about what you are doing, without faith in Jesus Christ then all is for nothing.

Once you have attained Faith and have a root/foundation the begginning of your relationship with God, only then can you make progress.

Once you have faith, you then require redemption for your errors in life and after this then baptism.
When you purify the body and soul it will stregthen your relationship with God.

This is what i've been taught, hope i've explained it properly

You'll get a different perspective on this, depending upon whom you ask -- even within Christianity. From my point of view, you've explained it very well.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

On two or three Christian forums I post at, we are having numerous debates about how one is saved.

I believe that each person alive is called and it is up to each person to answer the call.

The conflicting belief is that only people God has chosen to be called are called and anyone who doesn't become saved is because God didn't choose them to be saved.

So I am wondering what the Christians at the RF believe. Do you believe anyone can be saved or only those chosen by God to be saved?

Conscious awareness is only the surface and God knows what goes on in our inner life than better than we do.

I'm of the opinion that only those aspects of our whole life having survival value survive.

 

[Yeshua_Lives]

Salvation is a gift offered to everyone.

It is offered to us NOT because WE LOVE GOD, but because GOD LOVES US.

A HIGH cost was paid for this GIFT.

It cost GOD the sacrifice of his SON.

It cost the SON humiliation of servitude to the point of suffering and finally dying by crucifixion for OUR sins.

It cost the HOLY SPIRIT years of patiently wooing the stubborn hearts of sinful people through the call of the Gospel.

There is also a HIGH cost for accepting this GIFT.

To accept the GIFT, one must ACCEPT CHRIST and his salvation with absolute SURRENDER of SELF to HIM.

 

[uss_bigd]

According to strict sola fide principle, entering into baptism is an act on our part. Since our acts do not provide salvation, baptism does not impart salvation.

Baptism is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. Once we decide to enter into baptism, we have already acknowledged our salvation.

verses to prove your explaination???