• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

A question for the agnostics/atheists

robtex

Veteran Member
ImAj said:
Okay, it seems we need some clarification. First off, obviously, everyone has an inate sense of morality, empathy, and conscience which prevents them from murdering or killing or otherwise doing harm to others.
If that were true there would be no murder.


ImAj said:
But why do people matter?
Because the non-theists consciouly chooses people to matter. It is a personal choice and not neccessarly universal.

ImAj said:
Put another way, although everyone has an innate sense of empathy, morality, and conscience, there would be no reason to follow them without a higher power, because everything would be meaningless. This life would have no meaning.
Or the meaning of life could be self-assigned by each indivdual.


ImAj said:
Hitler will not be held accountable for his crimes, and the suffering of his victims will go unpunished.
Hilter believed he was doing God's will by killing the Jews. Many christians would say the opposite and believe he will be rewarded for killing the Jews who some Christians like Hitler believe need to be punished for Killing Jesus Christ.

ImAj said:
So it is because I love and empathize with other people that I believe in universal justice, and therefore a higher power. If God doesn't exist, life has no meaning.
So you are saying you have the inablity to chose to have love and empathy. It is instead assigned to you by a higher power? Not everything in life has meaning just as not everything in life has no meaning. It varies from person to person. Creative writing has meaning to me because I choose for it have meaning. american football by contrast has no meaning to me. Many of my co-workers have just the opposite opinion. As a non-theist I would say to you that you de-value the meaning of your life by investing it in a higher power which is not evidenced to exist. The love and affection you show to your God within a finite time period is love and affection that you were not able to, because of time constraints, show to your family, nieghbors friends ect.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Victor said:
Please share what meaning your life has. I'm curious.
Sorry, Victor, but you're one of the last people here with whom I would choose to share such things. You'll just have to trust me - or not ...
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
ImAj said:
So it is because I love and empathize with other people that I believe in universal justice, and therefore a higher power. If God doesn't exist, life has no meaning.
Just because you can't imagine meaning without God doesn't mean that other people can't either. They obviously do. And I hope that you would also.

Why do people matter irrespective of God? Because each one of us believes that we matter. And if we believe that, then it really isn't too big a stretch to believe that other people matter. So then the question is, why do you believe that you matter? If you knew for certain that God did not exist, that there was no "purpose" or "plan" would you kill yourself? What would be the point of that? In the absense of any external meaning, wouldn't you create meaning for yourself? If you knew for certain that this was all there is, wouldn't this life become even more important to you? With every choice you make, you are creating meaning, not just following the plans of someone else.

Like I said, I'm not an atheist. But I do not believe that God put us here as part of some mysterious plan of which we are just pawns. What kind of meaning is that?



Jensa said:
I don't really see why life has to have a meaning. It is what you make of it.
Existentialist!!! :woohoo:
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Jensa said:
Huh? What's that mean? I don't think I've ever heard that word before.

Existentialism stresses that people are entirely free and therefore responsible for what they make of themselves. Søren Kierkegaard and Feodor Dostoevsky in the nineteenth century, and Jean-Paul Sartre, Martin Heidegger, and Albert Camus in the twentieth century, were existentialist writers. Just in case you want to look them up. ;)
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
Ah the age old question which plagues humans alone.

"What is the meaning of life?"

Humans are the only creatures on the planet who are aware of their own mortality. Because of this knowledge, numerous mythos have developed over the centuries. The most common being either an afterlife or reincarnation. Both of which help to soothe the psychic harm that a knowledge of your own mortality brings.

"I am going to die someday" says ancient man, "I am scared about that fact".
"Its OK, if you do X (X being beleive as I tell you) then you will have everlasting life/come back to live as someone/something else" says the holy man, "and by the way, cough up 10% of what you make in exchange for me making you feel better about death".

Dogs, cats, elephants and dolphins probably don't discuss the meaning of life. I can't say with certainty that they don't, because I don't speak dog, cat, elephant or dolphin, but I think its a pretty save assumption.

Only humans feel a need to discuss such topics, and it is precisely because they have a sufficiently developed cerebral cortex that they are aware that no matter what they do, they are going to someday die. The better question is, why is there necessarily a meaning to life?

If there is no meaning to life? No cosmic boogeyman who is going to punish you for being bad, or reward you for being good, then what? Then you, and you alone are responsible for your behavior. If you choose to do good for others, then you alone are choosing to do so, and you do it out of the goodness of your heart. That seems to be a bit more responsibility than many choose to accept.

And those who are saying they only are kind to others for fear of retribution in the afterlife are truly scary individuals. I sincerly hope those who ask questions such as "why is it not OK for me to harm others?" are simply being argumentative for the sake of debate. If you really cannot grasp, apart from your religious fairy tales, why it is not OK to harm others, then you are, by definition a sociopath.

I would hate to have such a sad outlook on humanity as those posed by the Christians who have responded to this thread. They seem to think that only religion keeps people from acting like savages. Perhaps that helps to explain why more people over the millenia have been murdered and mutilated in the name of religion than for any other reason.

B.
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
:D Thanks guys. Now I've got more to read up on! Though with all the stuff I still need to read up on that may be a bad thing... ;)
 

Fire Empire

Member
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Ah the age old question which plagues humans alone.

"What is the meaning of life?"...The better question is, why is there necessarily a meaning to life?
This question seems to be coming up repeatedly, so we thought we should chime in. The meaning of life is simple, and whether you agree with this or not doesn't make the following any less true. The meaning of life is to seek happiness. Move towards pleasure and away from pain. Everyone is already living their life this way, we don't care what religion you have or don't have. It's hardwired, human programming: seek happiness.

As for the "why", evolution probably. This is like asking, "why is there an ocean?" Over time, it became what it is, and now, it's just there. Cause and effect.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Jayhawker Soule said:
Sorry, Victor, but you're one of the last people here with whom I would choose to share such things. You'll just have to trust me - or not ...
No problem. It's personal, I understand.

~Victor
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
Which, of course, is both obvious and irrelevant. I'm still curious as to whether or not Catholicism is all that prevents you from engaging in unconstrained sociopathic behaviour. :)
Rrrrrrrriight. I'll just sit here and wait for you to educate me on the virtues of "naturalism".:biglaugh:
 

Qumran

Member
Scott1 said:
Nope.
In my world, free will is paramount... not you or anyone else has no right to dictate my behavior.
Sometimes "free will" is self-destructive or SELF-LIMITING if the action you choose is unwise. For example, if you desire the freedom to jump out of an airplane in flight without a prachute, you may be free to do so, but in taking that action, you limit your freedom to live. Sometimes freedom, without knowledge and wisdom, equals death.

As for dictating your behavior, I agree with you in principle but with this proviso: If you choose to do harm to me or mine, I have the RIGHT, FREEDOM and OBLIGATION to dictate your behavior - and God bless you for being a big and strong guy, but I'm a big guy to and... if someone (not saying you, just "someone") were to threaten my children, for example, I would find a way to arrange a cozy meeting between that person and the REALLY 'Big Guy' upstairs! As for a big, strong body, well, coffins are not known for being very spacious or good places for expressing "free will."

Scott1 said:
I am an individual and free to act as I choose without consequence.
Are you serious? ..."without consequence??" True, there is no guarentee that harmful deeds will have consequences for you personally. After all, serial murderers, white collar criminals, street thugs, rapists and drug lords run free and sometimes are NEVER caught - but don't kid yourself, consequences come in many forms.

Sometimes the "puinishment" it is as simple as living a selfish, meaningless, bitter existence where the individual never feels the superior joys of life. Inwardly such ones can be empty and barren of self-love, compassion and love for others. They are robbed of the intense pleasure of doing acts of kindness, charity and leaving the world a better place than they found it.

I pity such ones. May your fate be better than that.
 

ImAj

New Member
robtex said:
If that were true there would be no murder.
Okay, conscience and morality prevent most people from committing murder. I thought I went over that in the next few sentences, and if not, then quit being such a literalist :p

robtex said:
Because the non-theists consciouly chooses people to matter. It is a personal choice and not neccessarly universal.
This is my point exactly. People would have no inherent value in themselves unless we made the personal choice for them to matter. Because if one 'chooses people to matter' then it follows that one can choose for them to not matter. And if the value of the human being has only whatever value we choose to give it, then Hitler would be fully justified in exterminating the Jews, because he chose to assign to their lives zero value and therefore they had no value in and of themselves.

robtex said:
Or the meaning of life could be self-assigned by each individual.
Basically what I think most of the people here are trying to say is that the meaning of life is subjective, and whatever someone says the meaning of their life is, that is the meaning of their life because of they have the free will to make that decision for themselves.

But first I think we need to distinguish between the 'purpose' and 'meaning' of life for this discussion. Obviously, since people have free will, we must each determine what we want to achieve in our life, and in that sense each of us determines what our respective 'purpose of life' is. However, I'm talking more about the value of human life when I'm talking about 'meaning.'

lilithu said:
Why do people matter irrespective of God? Because each one of us believes that we matter. And if we believe that, then it really isn't too big a stretch to believe that other people matter. So then the question is, why do you believe that you matter? If you knew for certain that God did not exist, that there was no "purpose" or "plan" would you kill yourself? What would be the point of that? In the absense of any external meaning, wouldn't you create meaning for yourself? If you knew for certain that this was all there is, wouldn't this life become even more important to you?
If I knew for certain that God didn't exist, and that there was no inherent right or wrong in anything except for what I believed to be so, then you would be correct in assuming I wouldn't kill myself. With only life to life, I might as well live it up while I can, right? And in the absence of external 'value' to my life, then I would be forced to conclude that no one else's life had any value either. So although I might not kill myself, if it would make me happy, there would be nothing 'wrong' with killing people, because their lives would have no inherent value. In fact, there would be nothing inherently wrong or right about doing anything, it would all be subjective. So if Hitler believed that he was doing the 'right' thing by exterminating the Jews, whose lives he had determined had no value (despite that he believed the he himself mattered, so apparently it is a stretch), then he would be correct in believing so. Furthermore, if Hitler is not punished by some higher power, then that in itself would be proof that the lives of his victims did not matter (had no value) and that his life didn't matter. They would be 'meaningless.'

Basically, my point is that life must have value outside of what anyone says or believes, because that value can be taken away by anyone who says or believes otherwise. Life must have inherent value.

Fire Emblem: If the 'purpose' of life is to seek happiness, then aren't pedophiles and sadists doing the 'right' thing?

Without some higher power, then we'd all just be hedonists. Even if we were trying to fulfill some biological need to help and love other people, it wouldn't matter whether we did or not, even if we believed that it did.

Scott: roflmao

The End.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Hello (and welcome) ImAj,

You stated/asked:

I'm not arguing that the idea of an omnipotent God is rational, because I know it isn't. I'm arguing that if God didn't exist, we would be living in a world in which nothing mattered. So I guess my question to the atheists/agnostics would be: are you okay with this? Why or why not?
Because you seem sincere in your question, and genuinely interested in an atheistic perspective (which in my case is personalized - I do not presume to authoritatively speak on behalf of all, or even the majority, of self-professed atheists), I proffer honest and considered reply alone.

As to your initial inquiry...yes (though I quibble with your assumptive premise).

Why? Simply put, if I were to concur with your qualified premise that - "no God = nothing matters" - then, superficially, I would agree. But there are greater depths to plumb, so...

But when the universe ends, by collapsing on itself or whatever, then it will all be over (obviously) with no trace of anything that had happened. And the Earth and all its inhabitants will be meaningless.
"Meaningless" to whom or what? Your conclusion presumes and infers that there should be some sort of readily referenced "permanent record" of attainment and achievement that validates the existence of contemporary humanity or individual existence as being "worthwhile".

This perception (need?) strikes me as similar to each and every past and present President's concern over their own historical "legacy". What will "history" say about them? Were they a "good", or "bad" President ? Did they "make a difference"; and if so...for better, or for worse? It's not much of a stretch to conclude that these concerns are primarily both motivated and driven by personal ego. Yet, your fundamental question applies for apt consideration...in a sense. Is it important (or, does it really "matter") what "history" will ultimately assign/define about a long deceased President? If so, to whom...and why? What achievements of of historical notoriety or substantial import do you associate with, say...President Millard Fillmore (take your time...I'll wait)? Think of anything? Anything at all? If not, would you conclude that his life and presidency had no meaning or impact upon the lives of his contemporaries? (Californians might thank Fillmore for signing legislation that admitted the state into the union, yet blacks might begrudge his signing of the "Fugitive Slave Act" [placing Federal officers at the disposal of slaveholders seeking fugitives]). Whether or not Fillmore's short mortal existence will present any "ultimate" cosmological "meaning" or "purpose" is moot to our perceptions today...for in his time, he unquestionably had a profound impact upon millions of American citizens (for good or ill). Do Fillmore's actions and existence have any relevance or direct impact upon your life (much less your deferential esteem or interest) today? I would suppose not, but certainly the argument can be made that his existence was influential (and substantive) to both himself and his historical contemporaries...lending both "meaning" and "purpose", to and for themselves, in their own auspicious moment in time. That's what's relevant, and what "matters".

If you're looking to assign/establish some personalized "legacy" of existence that is of especial and everlasting import/impact upon the cosmos itself (much less humankind, or your next-door neighbor), then any concept of a finite existence will not be especially satisfying to contemplate, or accept. Why then even bother to ask, "Why bother?"

But, if you can establish and satisfy your own "meaning", and motivational "purpose" in a (finite) mortal existence, you won't be overmuch concerned in troubling yourself in what people might be saying/thinking about you after you leave the room, or existence itself. If what others think of you is tantamount to what you think (and act upon) of/for yourself, you'll always question the "meaning of life".

Put another way, although everyone has an innate sense of empathy, morality, and conscience, there would be no reason to follow them without a higher power, because everything would be meaningless. This life would have no meaning.
If everyone does in fact retain "an innate sense of empathy, morality, and conscience", then what "purpose" would any "higher power" presume to confer/assign as meaningful? The question then becomes, "What is the meaning/purpose of a 'higher power'", not..."What is the meaning of existence?"

Can (or does) existence have any "meaning" if there is no "higher power"? If so, then how is it that a purposed (albeit existential) existence can be manifested despite that realization? If not, then what "purpose" does such a "higher power" exert in manifesting an existentially "meaningful" existence?

So it is because I love and empathize with other people that I believe in universal justice, and therefore a higher power. If God doesn't exist, life has no meaning.
I would suppose that those folks that require a "higher power" to rationalize their existence as a purposed and meaningful manifestation of some "ultimate/universal justice" (and omnipotently/benevolently imposed will) are unlikely (or unwilling) to accept the responsibility and consequences of their own freewill choices of mortal existence in the "here and now"...in deference to some wishful-thinking and hopeful "ultimate" (and infinitely lasting) "permanent record". You'll perhaps forgive my saying so, but such a perspective is little more that abject ego-gratification and self-validation for irrational motives/choices proffered to assuage doubt and ameliorate guilt within this very mortal ream of existence...despite any ernest (and often unsuccessful) supplication against/for a long-term (or finite/lasting, vs. "infinite") methodology of redemption/justification/salvation.

If God doesn't exist, life has no meaning" is an understandable qualified statement of rationalization/justification for a sustained (and "meaningful,/purposed") existence, that can not/will not establish nor completely allay their personalized doubts/fears regarding non-existence.

Despite the fact that I utterly accept my mortal existence free from any deity-proscribed "meaning" or "purpose", I do not fear such an inevitability of a finite existence...for I have the wherewithal to define my own motivations, reasons, purposes, and meanings to/of my own existence...and remain comfortable in the realization that I was non-existent (absent any fear, doubt, or trepidation) for a greater period of time prior to my brief stint and glimmer of sentient life in the here and now, and will so once more within that inevitably impending non-existence...of which will entail the same absence of fear or doubt that only the living can appreciate and contemplate to their own "meaningful" ends.

[I wonder...if a "higher power" is validated solely by assignable "meaning" in/of existence, yet atheists can manage to express find "reason for" a personalized existence absent any invisible benevolent deity or cosmic boogeyman, then does an atheist's perspective provide "proof" (or concrete disproof) that any god is quite unnecessary (and irrelevant) to any singularly purposed and/or meaningful existence?]

No...?

Why, or why not?]
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
ImAj said:
If I knew for certain that God didn't exist, and that there was no inherent right or wrong in anything except for what I believed to be so, then you would be correct in assuming I wouldn't kill myself. With only life to life, I might as well live it up while I can, right? And in the absence of external 'value' to my life, then I would be forced to conclude that no one else's life had any value either.
Why would you be "forced" to conclude that? Even if you did not value your own life, I see no reason why you would be forced to not value other lives. And as I said, one can value one's life internally, and by extension value that of others. In fact, if you didn't think you had value, why would you bother to "live it up?" If you believe that there is inherent merit in making yourself happy, why wouldn't you believe that everyone believes that about themselves, and therefore everyone has value?

ImAj said:
So although I might not kill myself, if it would make me happy, there would be nothing 'wrong' with killing people, because their lives would have no inherent value. In fact, there would be nothing inherently wrong or right about doing anything, it would all be subjective. So if Hitler believed that he was doing the 'right' thing by exterminating the Jews, whose lives he had determined had no value (despite that he believed the he himself mattered, so apparently it is a stretch), then he would be correct in believing so. Furthermore, if Hitler is not punished by some higher power, then that in itself would be proof that the lives of his victims did not matter (had no value) and that his life didn't matter. They would be 'meaningless.'
So you're basically saying that the only reason why you don't kill people is because you're afraid that God will punish you. I ask again, what kind of meaning is that? What kind of morality is that?

If someone is wrongfully killed, why is it that only vengeance would give their life meaning? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Gandhi was wrongfully killed. Are you saying that if his killers were never punished, in this life or the next, that would mean his life was meaningless? Bull. Gandhi's life had meaning because of what he made of it before he died, and that would be the case whether he was murdered or died peacefully at the age of 100.

btw, I hope for your sake that you are not Christian. Because according to Christian doctrine, even a mass murderer can go to heaven as long as he sincerely repents and accepts Christ as his savior. By your logic, Christ's message of salvation negates the value of life.



ImAj said:
Basically, my point is that life must have value outside of what anyone says or believes, because that value can be taken away by anyone who says or believes otherwise. Life must have inherent value.
Why do you think that just because someone believes otherwise that they actually can take away the inherent value of life? If life has inherent value, then it has inherent value even if people murder and get away with it. If it does not have inherent value, then it does not have inherent value even if murderers are punished. I don't see how the two are necessarily linked. If someone were about to kill me and I knew (s)he would get away with it, it would not make me think that my life was without value. I would only think that my life was without value if I never did anything worthwhile with it. A life given over to "living it up" and nothing else would make my life meaningless and even God could not put meaning there if I refused to create it for myself.
 

muichimotsu

Holding All and None
...Hmmm... Seems to me that the real importance of religion is either stating that humans have the power or humans have choice and the real power is in the divine. Or some synergy of that. But making things cut and dry like that isn't very good. So to clarify...someone mentioned something about life having no meaning without God? If that's the case, then we're apparently the product of some divine being being bored and giving us freewill to make up religions and in the end, just condemn each other because we're not all the same. As I mentioned once before...xenophobia is not good at all...lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: s2a

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
muichimotsu said:
...Hmmm... Seems to me that the real importance of religion is either stating that humans have the power or humans have choice and the real power is in the divine. Or some synergy of that. But making things cut and dry like that isn't very good. So to clarify...someone mentioned something about life having no meaning without God? If that's the case, then we're apparently the product of some divine being being bored and giving us freewill to make up religions and in the end, just condemn each other because we're not all the same. As I mentioned once before...xenophobia is not good at all...lol
Hello and welcome muichimotsu,

Allow me the honor of bestowing upon you your very first "frubling" for your Zen-like insight. ;-)

When opportunity permits, you should take a moment to introduce yourself here.

Or, read the general forum rules first, if you like...here.

And if you don't know what a "frubal" is, you can read the forum FAQ's here.

Again, welcome.
 

Merlin

Active Member
lilithu said:
Then you're just "being good" for fear of punishment or hope of reward and that's a crappy reason to be good.
There are no 'crappy reasons' to be kind and good. Whatever it takes......
 

muichimotsu

Holding All and None
I'll just assume a frubal is a good thing. And it's Hatori on the avatar, FeathersinHair. My favorite out of the Mabudatchi Trio. I didn't know I had Zen insight...
 
Top