A questions for Christians who believe in missionary work...

[Kathryn]

Angel Fire you make a great point. There just simply ARE some horrible places in this wide world - places that have urgent needs - physical, emotional, and spiritual. There are ways to minister kindly and professionally, with great effectiveness, on all these levels. Those who do so are to be commended.

 

[darkendless]

Missionary work is pointless. Just because Christians think they're doing some good. What if Hitler thought he was doing some good by eliminating Jews? I think its taking advantage of a local community. They don't know any better and they need the aid organisations to survive in some cases, so of course they're going to convert. Its like fishing with dynamite. What's even more sad is the culture that is lost by missionaries spreading their virus everywhere. I don't have a problem with Christianity, but i hate the fact that they think its their obligation to go and convert the world.

If i ever get rich im going to start an aid organisation about atheism. Its title can be "Just aid, not help at the cost of spiritual freedom."

 

[Katzpur]

Brilliant!

It is?

That's hilarious.

Obviously I missed the joke. Or maybe it's just so old it's not funny any more.

 

[Katzpur]

The funny thing is that I was raised a Christian and it was not until I abandoned the faith that I found any peace or joy.

I can almost guess the answer to this question, but would you mind telling me what denomination of Christianity you were affiliated with?

 

[Kathryn]

Missionary work is pointless. Just because Christians think they're doing some good. What if Hitler thought he was doing some good by eliminating Jews? I think its taking advantage of a local community. They don't know any better and they need the aid organisations to survive in some cases, so of course they're going to convert. Its like fishing with dynamite. What's even more sad is the culture that is lost by missionaries spreading their virus everywhere. I don't have a problem with Christianity, but i hate the fact that they think its their obligation to go and convert the world.

If i ever get rich im going to start an aid organisation about atheism. Its title can be "Just aid, not help at the cost of spiritual freedom."

Hmmm, today at church we had some visitors from Zambia. They were a singing group of black men who converted to Christianity via missionaries.

Their deep faith was obvious in their testimonies and in their amazing music. They are now missionaries to their own country. They are on tour raising money for Zambian orphanages. There are over 1 million Zambian orphans due to AIDS. These five men were very excited about raising money and putting on the first Vacation Bible School in one of these orphanages - of course they are also raising money for the physical and medical needs of these kids as well.

Seems Christianity isn't so pointless in their lives or in the lives of the orphans they will be reaching with American dollars given by American Christians.

 

[siddqqeeutube]

Hmmm, today at church we had some visitors from Zambia. They were a singing group of black men who converted to Christianity via missionaries.

Their deep faith was obvious in their testimonies and in their amazing music. They are now missionaries to their own country. They are on tour raising money for Zambian orphanages. There are over 1 million Zambian orphans due to AIDS. These five men were very excited about raising money and putting on the first Vacation Bible School in one of these orphanages - of course they are also raising money for the physical and medical needs of these kids as well.

Seems Christianity isn't so pointless in their lives or in the lives of the orphans they will be reaching with American dollars given by American Christians.

Why do missionaries uses lies and deception to propagate christianity to third world

countries ? A very good eg. Is they went to the extend of changing verses of

bible...john 2:4 "jesus said unto her,woman,what have i to do with thee?.....but in

the indonesian bible changed to "mother what can i do for you?....street childrens

were provided with good life with agendas of converting them to christian faith...i

have known of some of these children who became evangelist and claiming to be ex

muslim teacher.they were provided with fake letters from islamic

universities.etc.some even fake photos of them with real muslims scholars to

strengthened their claim... They wrote booklets about their testimonies and wrote

slanders about islam....if u want to help the poor do so w/o any agendas please.

 

[slave2six]

I can almost guess the answer to this question, but would you mind telling me what denomination of Christianity you were affiliated with?

Traditional protestant (Baptist, Wesleyan, and Lutheran), Non-denom (Calvary Chapel), and finally liturgical (Episcopal but leaning very heavily toward Orthodoxy which I studied fairly thoroughly as well). The latter was by far the most meaningful and certainly the best grounded in sound doctrine - provided that one takes the view that the Apostles and Church Fathers knew what they were talking about far better than the Calvary Chapel crowd is even capable of doing.

The thing that had bothered me during my 40+ years of Christian indoctrination was my inability to equate terms like "loving" or even "good" to the Judeo-Christian God but I had been told from day 1 that everything about the Christian faith is 100% true. I was afraid of God like you wouldn't believe - but somehow it wasn't the beginning of wisdom for me. It wasn't until I absented myself from church altogether for more than a year and started from square 1 that I discovered that square 1 didn't even exist. I talked with every Christian I know, most of whom are way smarter than I am, and not one of them was able to satisfactorily explain how it was even possible for square 1 to be either real or true in any sense. I tried to see the rest of the faith without square 1 and even those people who could not explain it to me admitted that without it the faith is meaningless.

It was a very difficult time, this. I was miserable for several months. If I had been a heroin addict going through rehab, I don't think I could have been more miserable. What made it worse was that my wife was extremely religious and I was not about to discuss this with her mainly because if I discovered later that I was wrong then I would have dragged her through misery needlessly. I rejected the entire thing and almost immediately I noticed a huge change in me. Whereas before I would look at the world and think how fortunate I was that I was going to one day escape from it and go to a better place, I began to look at the world and realize what a phenomenal place it is. I came to love and appreciate things that before were merely part of that which is “passing away.” But more importantly, I was able to look at people who I had been disliking a great deal and realize that the reason I didn’t like them was because they did not meet some standard that I held them to. When I came to understand the simple reality that people are biological creatures with certain natural traits and tendencies and that this is not reason for a deity of any sort to assign them to eternal damnation, I was able to honestly accept them for who they are. This hit very close to home for me and affected a very close personal relationship.

The reason I was never able to reconcile the terms "loving" or even "good" to the Judeo-Christian God is not because of some fallen nature syndrome on my part but because there is literally nothing loving or good about him. It’s not that I don’t believe in God. It’s simply that I believe that God is love and the he is good and therefore cannot be the God described in the Bible. That is to say, I believe that God is better than Christians have made him out to be.

It was perhaps three months after I came to rest and peace in my heart about all this that I explained it all to my wife who took it with incredible composure. A couple months later she told me, “You know, if the God of the Bible is real then we’re all screwed no matter what we believe.” And she’s right.

I am not an atheist. I am simply an a-religionist. I cannot describe to you the freedom of it.

 

[Katzpur]

Traditional protestant (Baptist, Wesleyan, and Lutheran), Non-denom (Calvary Chapel), and finally liturgical (Episcopal but leaning very heavily toward Orthodoxy which I studied fairly thoroughly as well). The latter was by far the most meaningful and certainly the best grounded in sound doctrine - provided that one takes the view that the Apostles and Church Fathers knew what they were talking about far better than the Calvary Chapel crowd is even capable of doing.

The thing that had bothered me during my 40+ years of Christian indoctrination was my inability to equate terms like "loving" or even "good" to the Judeo-Christian God but I had been told from day 1 that everything about the Christian faith is 100% true. I was afraid of God like you wouldn't believe - but somehow it wasn't the beginning of wisdom for me. It wasn't until I absented myself from church altogether for more than a year and started from square 1 that I discovered that square 1 didn't even exist. I talked with every Christian I know, most of whom are way smarter than I am, and not one of them was able to satisfactorily explain how it was even possible for square 1 to be either real or true in any sense. I tried to see the rest of the faith without square 1 and even those people who could not explain it to me admitted that without it the faith is meaningless.

It was a very difficult time, this. I was miserable for several months. If I had been a heroin addict going through rehab, I don't think I could have been more miserable. What made it worse was that my wife was extremely religious and I was not about to discuss this with her mainly because if I discovered later that I was wrong then I would have dragged her through misery needlessly. I rejected the entire thing and almost immediately I noticed a huge change in me. Whereas before I would look at the world and think how fortunate I was that I was going to one day escape from it and go to a better place, I began to look at the world and realize what a phenomenal place it is. I came to love and appreciate things that before were merely part of that which is “passing away.” But more importantly, I was able to look at people who I had been disliking a great deal and realize that the reason I didn’t like them was because they did not meet some standard that I held them to. When I came to understand the simple reality that people are biological creatures with certain natural traits and tendencies and that this is not reason for a deity of any sort to assign them to eternal damnation, I was able to honestly accept them for who they are. This hit very close to home for me and affected a very close personal relationship.

The reason I was never able to reconcile the terms "loving" or even "good" to the Judeo-Christian God is not because of some fallen nature syndrome on my part but because there is literally nothing loving or good about him. It’s not that I don’t believe in God. It’s simply that I believe that God is love and the he is good and therefore cannot be the God described in the Bible. That is to say, I believe that God is better than Christians have made him out to be.

It was perhaps three months after I came to rest and peace in my heart about all this that I explained it all to my wife who took it with incredible composure. A couple months later she told me, “You know, if the God of the Bible is real then we’re all screwed no matter what we believe.” And she’s right.

I am not an atheist. I am simply an a-religionist. I cannot describe to you the freedom of it.

Thank you for your in-depth response, Slave. I'm sorry that was your experience. If I'd had that experience, I'd probably be right where you are right now.

 

[Dunemeister]

Why do missionaries uses lies and deception to propagate christianity to third world

countries ? A very good eg. Is they went to the extend of changing verses of

bible...john 2:4 "jesus said unto her,woman,what have i to do with thee?.....but in

the indonesian bible changed to "mother what can i do for you?....street childrens

were provided with good life with agendas of converting them to christian faith...i

have known of some of these children who became evangelist and claiming to be ex

muslim teacher.they were provided with fake letters from islamic

universities.etc.some even fake photos of them with real muslims scholars to

strengthened their claim... They wrote booklets about their testimonies and wrote

slanders about islam....if u want to help the poor do so w/o any agendas please.

Caricaturing the efforts of missionaries doesn't help in understanding what they do.

 

[Dunemeister]

Thank you for your in-depth response, Slave. I'm sorry that was your experience. If I'd had that experience, I'd probably be right where you are right now.

Agreed. There's a sense in which at least some instances of atheism are the highest form of piety.

 

[Katzpur]

Why do missionaries uses lies and deception to propagate christianity to third world countries ?

Well that's certainly painting a whole lot of people with the same brush.

 

[Former Minister]

Kathryn--I would like to share the joy of no longer being a believer with you. I believe the Bible is complete fiction and that God does not exist. When I was a believer I felt like I had to live and act in certain ways. I now act as I like and don't put on a show for anyone. I enjoy spending Sundays doing things I enjoy doing and I feel so much better now than when I was a believer. I am now at peace with myself and no longer need that crutch. If you don't like hearing these things, you might consider keeping your religion to yourself and not sharing it with your friends because I can assure you they don't want to hear it.

 

[Katzpur]

When I was a believer I felt like I had to live and act in certain ways. I now act as I like and don't put on a show for anyone.

But if you really believed -- back when you were a believer -- why was it an "act" to behave a certain way. Generally, if people really believe something, the way they live and act reflects their beliefs. It's not a show at all. Sounds to me as if you were only pretending to believe or were being forced into being something you weren't. That's not true belief at all. Don't get me wrong... I'm glad you're happy now. I just don't see why someone who really believed something would feel forced to act the part.

 

[darkendless]

Hmmm, today at church we had some visitors from Zambia. They were a singing group of black men who converted to Christianity via missionaries.

Their deep faith was obvious in their testimonies and in their amazing music. They are now missionaries to their own country. They are on tour raising money for Zambian orphanages. There are over 1 million Zambian orphans due to AIDS. These five men were very excited about raising money and putting on the first Vacation Bible School in one of these orphanages - of course they are also raising money for the physical and medical needs of these kids as well.

Seems Christianity isn't so pointless in their lives or in the lives of the orphans they will be reaching with American dollars given by American Christians.

Its a shame they had to become Christians to recieve such hospitality. I don't think they'd get close to the support they're getting without their "faith."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Its a shame they had to become Christians to recieve such hospitality. I don't think they'd get close to the support they're getting without their "faith."

I was thinking something similar. It's fine and good that they're taking care of orphans, but I don't look kindly on tying humanitarian aid to product marketing, especially when it's done to children and especially when the children don't have parents to protect them.

 

[darkendless]

I was thinking something similar. It's fine and good that they're taking care of orphans, but I don't look kindly on tying humanitarian aid to product marketing, especially when it's done to children and especially when the children don't have parents to protect them.

Neither do I, taking advantage of a communities vunerability is not something to preach about.

I wonder if statistics exist to show conversion rates in 3rd world countries vs. 1st world countries like Canada, Australia and Britian. In the 3rd world they take the support because they have to in order to survive, where as we tell the to mind their own damned business

 

[Dunemeister]

Its a shame they had to become Christians to recieve such hospitality. I don't think they'd get close to the support they're getting without their "faith."

That's not how it worked. The hospitality was free. Nobody forced anyone to believe anything. As Christians do their work, they are typically asked why they do it. They typically respond with stories about Jesus. Some of the people Christians minister to believe the stories, and so become Christians themselves. Please let's let go of our fearful caricatures.

 

[darkendless]

That's not how it worked. The hospitality was free. Nobody forced anyone to believe anything. As Christians do their work, they are typically asked why they do it. They typically respond with stories about Jesus. Some of the people Christians minister to believe the stories, and so become Christians themselves. Please let's let go of our fearful caricatures.

No i mean getting to America. They would never have had to oppurtunity to raise funds at the church if they were anything but highly faithful christians.

I can imagine the response if they walked in and said "we're pagans, can you help us out?"

 

[Dunemeister]

No i mean getting to America. They would never have had to oppurtunity to raise funds at the church if they were anything but highly faithful christians.

I can imagine the response if they walked in and said "we're pagans, can you help us out?"

You'd be surprised how often pagans and nonbelievers ask for and receive help from churches. Think of Hurrican Katrina. Who showed up in droves to help? Humanist organizations? No. Christian ones. Did any of those Christian organizations ask whether the people they were helping were Christian, pagan, or otherwise? No. They just responded to the need.

My church regularly responds to needs in the community whether they come from fellow Christians or people of other religions or no religion. Honestly, such snide comments as yours betrays an utter lack of contact with the Christian community.

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn--I would like to share the joy of no longer being a believer with you. I believe the Bible is complete fiction and that God does not exist. When I was a believer I felt like I had to live and act in certain ways. I now act as I like and don't put on a show for anyone. I enjoy spending Sundays doing things I enjoy doing and I feel so much better now than when I was a believer. I am now at peace with myself and no longer need that crutch. If you don't like hearing these things, you might consider keeping your religion to yourself and not sharing it with your friends because I can assure you they don't want to hear it.

One of the joys of friendship is the respectful interchange of opinions and beliefs. Even when I don't agree with my friends, I still respect them and enjoy the opportunity to see things from their perspective instead of mine. Based on the quality of the friendships I've enjoyed over my lifetime, I believe they also appreciate what I invest in these relationships.

Now - even though you're not my friend, I enjoy the fact that we both have the freedom to share our beliefs. Anytime you want to engage in a mutually respectful interchange, just let me know.

I look forward to getting to know you better. Meanwhile, being the pretty frank person that I am, I'll let you know that I appreciate the tone you've set for our conversations. I won't hold back on stating my opinion since you've made it a point to be so direct yourself.

Peace out!