A religious practice question

[nPeace]

Again... we are using a terminology (in English) to try to express what happens:
2 Chron 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God.

Ezekiel 3:23 Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and, behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river of Chebar: and I fell on my face. 24 Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house. It took the spirit to get him back up on his feet.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Sometimes, you are sooo wobbly that people can think you are drunk:

Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

There are many other manifestations when God's presence is thick (so to speak)

I don't see in any of those passages anyone "falling under the power".

Notice your words... "we are using a terminology (in English) to try to express what happens:"
You are using your terminology to express what you believe happened.
That's completly different to this is what the Bible says happened.
Do you disagree with that?

Nowhere in any one of those verses does it say "he was struck by the spirit" or "the spirit struck him" or "the power of the holy spirit struck him".
Do you agree with that?

People in the Bible were said to fall on their face, and it was because of awe and reverence.
For example, Abraham fell on his face several times - Genesis 17:2-4 I will establish my covenant between me and you, and I will multiply you very, very much.” At this Abram fell facedown, and God continued to speak with him, saying: “As for me, look! my covenant is with you, and you will certainly become a father of many nations.

Genesis 17:16, 17 I will bless her and also give you a son by her; I will bless her and she will become nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” 17 At this Abraham fell facedown and began to laugh and to say in his heart: “Will a man 100 years old have a child born to him, and will Sarah, a woman 90 years old, give birth?”

The Bible does not say Abraham was struck by the Holy spirit. Does it?
Now let's suppose that a Pentecostal said, this scripture shows that "stricken by the spirit" is scriptural. What would you say to that person?
Do you see the problem?
Just because you believe something, and you so strongly want to argue that it is true, if the Bible has not said it, it is simply a case of this... Matthew 15:6 . . .you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.

How about this one?
(Leviticus 9:23, 24) 23 Jehovah’s glory now appeared to all the people, 24 and fire came out from Jehovah and began consuming the burnt offering and the pieces of fat on the altar. When all the people saw it, they started shouting and they fell with their faces to the ground.

"Ah! See!" Someone says, "They were stricken by the spirit!"
Then we open the Bible, and we read...
(1 Kings 18:38, 39) 38 At that the fire of Jehovah fell from above and consumed the burnt offering, the pieces of wood, the stones, and the dust, and it licked up the water from the trench. 39 When all the people saw it, they immediately fell facedown and said: “Jehovah is the true God! Jehovah is the true God!”

(2 Chronicles 7:3) And all the people of Israel were looking on when the fire came down and the glory of Jehovah was upon the house, and they bowed low with their faces to the ground on the pavement and prostrated themselves and thanked Jehovah, “for he is good; his loyal love endures forever.”

What a teaching can do to us, when we don't use the Bible, but instead teach our own beliefs.

If you are telling someone, 'So says the word of God', should not the person be able to read yes, so says the word of God?
You have not shown me any scripture that says those individuals 'fell under the power of holy spirit'.

You know what the scriptures say, so you bear a heavier judgement, and I am repeatedly trying to appeal to your conscience. I know when we want to believe something, it makes it harder for us to submit to God's spirit.
The Bible helps us to see why, by letting us know what happened to Pharaoh when he hardened his heart. God allowed it to be hardened, but don't the scripture let us know whom God gave him over to?
(2 Corinthians 4:3, 4)
3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
(2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12)
11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Yes Ken. It was Satan. Satan has a grip on those who don't want to accept the truth. Remember Saul, He was kicking too, before he got struck with blindness.
It seems the striking by holy spirit never results in a good end.

However, the scriptures tell us a different story than you are telling. of those under the power of Holy spirit.
(Luke 2:27, 28) . . .Under the power of the spirit, he now came into the temple. . . he took the child into his arms and praised God and said
(Luke 10:21) . . .he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father. . .
(Acts 1:8) . . .you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the most distant part of the earth.”


On the contrary, it was the power of unclean spirits that dashed people, or threw them to the ground.
(Mark 1:23) . . .a man in their synagogue who was under the power of an unclean spirit, and he shouted. . .
(Mark 5:2-5) . . .a man under the power of an unclean spirit met him from among the tombs. . . he was crying out in the tombs and in the mountains and slashing himself with stones
(Luke 9:39-42) . . .a spirit seizes him, and suddenly he cries out, and it throws him into convulsions . . . .the demon hurled him to the ground and violently threw him into a convulsion. . .

Reminds me of what I see in Pentecostal gatherings.
In fact it get's so bad the ushers bring sheets to the service so that they can cover the female's when they fall down and start convulsing exposing areas they don't want the poor children and invited guest to see.

Out of love for you, I have done my part in trying to appeal to your heart. I have shown you the scriptures which shows what those under the power of holy spirit did, but I can see you want to go where you are going, so as I said before, carry on in your belief. I'm done.
Take care... until we meet again.

 

[nPeace]

It's not only the young girls they need to cover at these services.

 

[Kenny]

I don't see in any of those passages anyone "falling under the power".

Notice your words... "we are using a terminology (in English) to try to express what happens:"
You are using your terminology to express what you believe happened.
That's completly different to this is what the Bible says happened.
Do you disagree with that?

This has absolutely no sense other than you wish to read into it what you want to read into it.

It explains absolutely nothing about the scriptures I gave and explained nothing.

All I can assume is that you simply want to read what you want to read. Which is fine with me.

But I won't call evil what is good... as it is commanded. It's between you and God.

 

[nPeace]

This has absolutely no sense other than you wish to read into it what you want to read into it.

It explains absolutely nothing about the scriptures I gave and explained nothing.

All I can assume is that you simply want to read what you want to read. Which is fine with me.

But I won't call evil what is good... as it is commanded. It's between you and God.

Wait a minute...
All the scriptures you presented were dealt with, with two exceptions, which I though was... I don't know how to describe it, without sounding harsh, and I don't want to be that harsh... just moderate enough for gentle admonishion.

Perhaps you may need to ask yourself, "why am I not seeing it?"
Since you insist, I'll oblige. Please don't put back on the gloves afterward. You asked for help, so just consider it my offering a helping hand... again.

2 Chron 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God.

Was this supposed to be an opening quip?
This has nothing even remotely related to what you are saying. It says nothing about falling, nor the power of the spirit.
Besides that have you considered that the men were kneeling, or bowing - "on their face"?
Certainly if the cloud filled the house, and they were in such a position, they would be unable to stand to minister.

Just as they could not enter to minister, on another occasion
and Jehovah’s glory filled the house. The priests were unable to enter the house of Jehovah because Jehovah’s glory had filled the house of Jehovah. (2 Chronicles 7:1, 2)

If the cloud was at the level where the glory of Jehovah is described to normally be - above the cherubs, then clearly, the men would be unable to stand to minister.
(Ezekiel 10:4) And the glory of Jehovah rose up from the cherubs to the threshold of the doorway of the house, and the house gradually became filled with the cloud, and the courtyard was full of the brightness of the glory of Jehovah.

I think your presenting this scripture shows a mark of desperation.
I can't imagine you were serious. I'm being honest.

I actually missed this one.

Ezekiel 3:23 Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and, behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river of Chebar: and I fell on my face. 24 Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house. It took the spirit to get him back up on his feet.

Read Ezekiel Chapter 1. When you read the last sentence stop. Then ask yourself two questions : 1) Why did Ezekiel fall down? 2) Ken, are you being reasonable here... Am I really listening to the word, or am I listening to the voice of the demons?

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

I have already covered this. See post #27.
You don't want us to keep repeating, do you?
I'm not into that.

John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Again, post #27.

Sometimes, you are sooo wobbly that people can think you are drunk:

Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Ken, this one brought down the house for me. It was like one of those shows that just before the curtain comes down they give you the best part of the comedy, so that when you leave the theater you are still cracking up.

I think you threw that in there for a bit of humor.
Okay, I'll bite.

Okay, I'm done. That was fun.
Where were we...

You were joking right. I can't imagine you were serious
Wobbly? Seriously?

(Acts 2:6-8) 6. . .a crowd gathered and was bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Indeed, they were utterly amazed and said: “See here, all these who are speaking are Galileans, are they not? 8 How is it, then, that each one of us is hearing his own native language?
(Acts 2:12, 13) 12 Yes, they were all astonished and perplexed, saying to one another: “What does this mean?” 13 However, others mocked them and said: “They are full of sweet wine.”

Speaking different languages? Yes. Scripture says that. I just read it.
Wobbly? Where? Not in scripture.
Maybe it's in Ken's Bible. I'm here when in the event, you find it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So a long time ago maybe a year or two ago I attended a Pentecostal Church with my foster parent. This was a regular occurrence...in order for me to attend due to my autism I would bring these big headphones. It would be too loud otherwise and I wouldn't know whats going on plus I would be in pain without them. I forgot them one day. So I stood in the back behind these glass doors. Past the glass doors is where the church pews and service was held. I could hear what was going on altho due to how loud it was and such I had issues processing it. I watch them do this weird thing I didn't understand and hadn't seen before. A person would go up to the pastor the pastor would put their hands on said person say something and the person would fall down. I asked someone about it and they said they were sacrificed. Either that or they said sanctified and my issues with auditory processing got to me. The latter was more likely but with my questions about what she meant regarding sacrificed she decided to not clarify and got mad.Later I did research think it was a practice called slain in the spirit? Anyway since I didn't know what was going on I decided to go find my foster parent and ask her about it. I regretted it almost immediately. I was flapping my hands using vocal stimming trying to ignore the pain of all the sounds looking for my foster parent. The pastor saw me and gestured for me to come forth. I did said I was looking for my foster parent. She said something I didn't understand gestured for me to come closer. She said a bunch of words anointed my head, lead me back and placed her hand on my forehead. I had to resist the urge to scream cuz I was already over stimulated I did not need someone touching me. I caught 4 words only with what she said. Autism. Struggle. Holy Ghost. I was so confused as to what was going on. After that was over I had a meltdown. Too much stimulation. My question is this: what happened? Was this a faith healing? Or like what my friend maybe said sanctifaction/a sacrifice? Something else? And if why would they do whatever it was without asking me and making sure I knew what was going on? It was just so confusing and Ive asked people from the church about it afterwards but they didn't give any answers.

Sounds like someone thinking they know what's best taking it upon themselves to force you through something, and a terrible understanding of mental illness. I'd say they should be ashamed of themselves, but I wouldn't be surprised if they would be unable to understand what they did wrong, given they are probably so convinced they were in the right.

I don't want anyone trying to heal me of my autism.

I wouldn't either. If I were, I would fundamentally become a different person, and I'd no longer be "me." Sure, I have struggles and problems because of it. But being able to hyper focus can be a good thing. We can often smell and hear things others can't. We are known for seeing things that others miss. Sure, thinking literally makes socializing hard, but when it comes to word play and turn of phrases it makes things stand out and opens doors for writing in ways others just don't have. And there are many successful Aspies out there (including Dan Akroyd and Gary Numan).
As you said, it's more an issue with a lack of support and resources. Specif forms or in general, autism is embarrassingly misunderstood and some people deserved a good slap for what they think about it and us. And it's terribly rude and offensive to assert some "cure" over us and assume we want it.

 

[VoidCat]

Sounds like someone thinking they know what's best taking it upon themselves to force you through something, and a terrible understanding of mental illness. I'd say they should be ashamed of themselves, but I wouldn't be surprised if they would be unable to understand what they did wrong, given they are probably so convinced they were in the right.

I wouldn't either. If I were, I would fundamentally become a different person, and I'd no longer be "me." Sure, I have struggles and problems because of it. But being able to hyper focus can be a good thing. We can often smell and hear things others can't. We are known for seeing things that others miss. Sure, thinking literally makes socializing hard, but when it comes to word play and turn of phrases it makes things stand out and opens doors for writing in ways others just don't have. And there are many successful Aspies out there (including Dan Akroyd and Gary Numan).
As you said, it's more an issue with a lack of support and resources. Specif forms or in general, autism is embarrassingly misunderstood and some people deserved a good slap for what they think about it and us. And it's terribly rude and offensive to assert some "cure" over us and assume we want it.

The idea of them trying to cure me is exteremely offensive to me. And most autistics I know agree with me on this. I know no autistic person verbal or nonverbal that I've communicated with who want a cure. Kinda makes organizations who have supported one like autism speaks look dumb.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The idea of them trying to cure me is exteremely offensive to me. And most autistics I know agree with me on this. I know no autistic person verbal or nonverbal that I've communicated with who want a cure. Kinda makes organizations who have supported one like autism speaks look dumb.

I think it's Texas that has a billboard of some wanker group claiming to cure autism. Such a thing should be strictly prohibited.

 

[VoidCat]

I think it's Texas that has a billboard of some wanker group claiming to cure autism. Such a thing should be strictly prohibited.

I know you probably heard of this but some parents get so desperate to try and give their kid bleach Danger: Don’t Drink Miracle Mineral Solution or Similar Products

It's sad. Instead of accepting their child's condition they try too hard to make them act neurotypical. If they actually accepted it then their child might be easier to handle. And if they can't handle said child they should admit it and get help be it foster care or something else.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I know you probably heard of this but some parents get so desperate to try and give their kid bleach Danger: Don’t Drink Miracle Mineral Solution or Similar Products

It's sad. Instead of accepting their child's condition they try too hard to make them act neurotypical. If they actually accepted it then their child might be easier to handle. And if they can't handle said child they should admit it and get help be it foster care or something else.

Parents really can be some of the worst. Especially when it comes to something so heavily stigmatized and misunderstood as autism. If every autistic child could get the early intervention to help them learn coping skills, social norms and practices, and proper guidance into adulthood I'm confident everyone who thinks we need cured would be kicking themselves for thinking it, and we could go from plagued with housing and employment issues to probably being some of the most successful people out their when we can find and get into a field that holds our interest.
And awareness or what autism is. I'm not really proud of that, but people do treat you differently when they think you're normal.
However, although I've put in the effort and can pass as being typical, when it comes to others with mental illness they are still usually very quick to identify me.

 

[VoidCat]

I'm not really proud of that, but people do treat you differently when they think you're normal.

It's sucks but people think I am too childlike to be taken seriously cuz often I dont try to pass. It's too much work and harms me to do so constantly. People also call me cute until I do something that is inconvenient like drawing too attention to them by hanging around them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's sucks but people think I am too childlike to be taken seriously cuz often I dont try to pass. It's too much work and harms me to do so constantly. People also call me cute until I do something that is inconvenient like drawing too attention to them by hanging around them.

I wasn't able to get any job I had to interview for, which had me basically going from one crap job looking for bodies with a pulse to another hardly any different. Some cops have thought I was intoxicated from the way I talk. So I put the effort into conversing with people better, and was able to get better jobs. But one of them was terrible as it was a mental health center who stigmatized the hell out of mental illness and everyone kept going on about "people like us" to refer to clinicians and "those people" to refer to clients. It left me highly anxious and even fearful to give any indications I struggle with mental health and that I was a client there, and even quit seeing the therapist there I had been going to. Because I am one of "those people," and clearly just about everyone around me looked down on "those people."
But then it got better because I moved here and started driving Lyft to give myself nearly unlimited practice with conversation skills. But it's been limited to surface deep chit chat. It's been good and I'm not complaining, but as far as socializing goes I've started to stagnate in progress.

 

[VoidCat]

But one of them was terrible as it was a mental health center who stigmatized the hell out of mental illness and everyone kept going on about "people like us" to refer to clinicians and "those people" to refer to clients. It left me highly anxious and even fearful to give any indications I struggle with mental health and that I was a client there, and even quit seeing the therapist there I had been going to. Because I am one of "those people," and clearly just about everyone around me looked down on "those people."

That is a terrible center. Should shut down if the people running it cant properly see the clients as people

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is a terrible center. Should shut down if the people running it cant properly see the clients as people

It was pretty bad. Of course just about their was a hollier than thou goodie two shoes, they were pretty awful people. People bragging about how much alcohol they keep at home, one office lady showing up to work hungover, and all manner or terrible, horrible things said about our clients by the clinicians. Even making fun of some of them.
And that's not even all. Orientation got a bit preachy at times, being religious was promoted as something you need to be mentally healthy, amd that too was something that made me feel not just like an unwanted outsider, but like someone who had infiltrated deep behind enemy lines, because I wasn't one of them, they made that very clear, but yet I was being accepted as one them.

 

[VoidCat]

It was pretty bad. Of course just about their was a hollier than thou goodie two shoes, they were pretty awful people. People bragging about how much alcohol they keep at home, one office lady showing up to work hungover, and all manner or terrible, horrible things said about our clients by the clinicians. Even making fun of some of them.
And that's not even all. Orientation got a bit preachy at times, being religious was promoted as something you need to be mentally healthy, amd that too was something that made me feel not just like an unwanted outsider, but like someone who had infiltrated deep behind enemy lines, because I wasn't one of them, they made that very clear, but yet I was being accepted as one them

Yeah should be shutdown. That sounds all kinds of wrong.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah should be shutdown. That sounds all kinds of wrong.

It should. Problem is, there's nothing to replace it.

 

[VoidCat]

It should. Problem is, there's nothing to replace it.

That really sucks

 

[Thief]

So a long time ago maybe a year or two ago I attended a Pentecostal Church with my foster parent. This was a regular occurrence...in order for me to attend due to my autism I would bring these big headphones. It would be too loud otherwise and I wouldn't know whats going on plus I would be in pain without them. I forgot them one day. So I stood in the back behind these glass doors. Past the glass doors is where the church pews and service was held. I could hear what was going on altho due to how loud it was and such I had issues processing it. I watch them do this weird thing I didn't understand and hadn't seen before. A person would go up to the pastor the pastor would put their hands on said person say something and the person would fall down. I asked someone about it and they said they were sacrificed. Either that or they said sanctified and my issues with auditory processing got to me. The latter was more likely but with my questions about what she meant regarding sacrificed she decided to not clarify and got mad.Later I did research think it was a practice called slain in the spirit? Anyway since I didn't know what was going on I decided to go find my foster parent and ask her about it. I regretted it almost immediately. I was flapping my hands using vocal stimming trying to ignore the pain of all the sounds looking for my foster parent. The pastor saw me and gestured for me to come forth. I did said I was looking for my foster parent. She said something I didn't understand gestured for me to come closer. She said a bunch of words anointed my head, lead me back and placed her hand on my forehead. I had to resist the urge to scream cuz I was already over stimulated I did not need someone touching me. I caught 4 words only with what she said. Autism. Struggle. Holy Ghost. I was so confused as to what was going on. After that was over I had a meltdown. Too much stimulation. My question is this: what happened? Was this a faith healing? Or like what my friend maybe said sanctifaction/a sacrifice? Something else? And if why would they do whatever it was without asking me and making sure I knew what was going on? It was just so confusing and Ive asked people from the church about it afterwards but they didn't give any answers.

if I may ask......do you feel better?

 

[RestlessSoul]

It's a nice spin... but apparently they weren't that scared since they beat him and crucified him.

No... in multiple occasions, even when people were possessed, they fell when the anointed was there.

I would respectfully suggest that Jesus was beaten and crucified precisely because people - particularly people in authority - were scared of him.

 

[VoidCat]

if I may ask......do you feel better?

Well I no longer go to that church if that's what you mean.

 

[Kenny]

Upon meditation to figure why there is a disconnect, I have come to the conclusion that it is like trying to share with another person what it is like to know that you are a child of God when they have never experienced it. The experience of knowing is, IMV, too powerful to express in words. You can only know what it is like when you have actually gone through it.

Likewise, by your posts I can see that you have never experienced the presence of God is such a magnitude that you can't get off your seat to stand. Or His presence is so strong that you have no words than can be uttered or, for that matter, have God's presence so great that you can no longer stand on physical feet and you fall into his presence.

And because you haven't, you try to explain why it is that what is in black and white isn't what it says.

Wait a minute...
All the scriptures you presented were dealt with, with two exceptions, which I though was... I don't know how to describe it, without sounding harsh, and I don't want to be that harsh... just moderate enough for gentle admonishion.

Perhaps you may need to ask yourself, "why am I not seeing it?"
Since you insist, I'll oblige. Please don't put back on the gloves afterward. You asked for help, so just consider it my offering a helping hand... again.

So, for an example, I shared about Chronicles 5:17 - you start talking about Chronicles 7 and bring up issues that have nothing to do with Chronicles 5.

Or you bring up "Abraham", which has nothing to do with what we are talking about... again, just trying to fill in with items that has nothing to do with the subject matter.

I could go on, but the same principle

Read Ezekiel Chapter 1. When you read the last sentence stop. Then ask yourself two questions : 1) Why did Ezekiel fall down? 2) Ken, are you being reasonable here... Am I really listening to the word, or am I listening to the voice of the demons?

And then you come up with "listening to the voice of demons" (as if after 38 year of hearing the voice of God in multiple ways, forms and fashions (not literally hearing the voice but as Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice".)

No, my friend, by your posts I would come to the conclusion that you just haven't had the experiences of the gifts of the Spirit and you are trying to explain away what God is doing and has done.