A request for a Sanatana Dharma DIR- Dharmic and Staff members Only

[Stormcry]

Hello

LuisDantas..

Buddhism or Jainism are not parts of Sanatana Dharma. Buddhism and jainism have their origins in recent decades, which is contradictory to the very definition of Sanatana (eternality).

Moreover Sanatana Dharma is defined as the complete acceptance of Vedic scriptures like Veda & Puranas, while In Buddhism or Jainism there's only partial acceptance of some vedic teachings but having lot of non-vedic and anti-vedic teachings.

Why can't we rename hinduism dir to hinduism(sanatana Dharma) dir ?

 

[LuisDantas]

My sentiments entirely, allthough I am not Indian or practicing in India my guru is Bharatia and teaches Sanatana Dharma strictly as taught in his sampradaya, I dont think I ever hear him talking about Hinduism apart from on a cultural level, he is very firm on this issue of preserving tradition and I love him for this, he spends his entire life to teaching these basics of Sanatana Dharma.

I didnt come here to debate, so to me it would be wonderfull to have a Sanatana Dharma section where we sould discuss in peace amongst those that consider them selves Sanatan Dharmi. Personaly I dont feel very comfortabe in the Hindu DIR there is too much conflict and very little room left for devotional/spiritual development.

A Sanatana Dharma DIR would give any like myself the oppertunity to discuss with others like your self how and is actualy traditionaly taught, what worries me here is that many people are not following a guru or teacher and are taking selective knowledge from interlectual study, this can lead to incoplete understandings and missinturpretations ? Possibly this is the source of much of the conflicts ?

There is no reason that anyone canot continue to ask questions in the same way in Hindu DIR, surely a sub section like Vedanta DIR would allow everyone the chance to discuss where and how they please ?

Surely this is not a suggestion to replace Hinduism DIR just create a sub section for peacefull learned discussions ?

Then Hinduism DIR is for them, Sanatana Dharma is for those whos gurus teach Sanatana Dharma and want to discuss with like minded students.

A more private place like Theists only would be realy helpfull.

It is my understanding at the current time that what you are asking for is in fact a closed group, not really fitting for the open forums format of RF.

The main problem, which I see as a true impediment, is that you want fine control about who is or is not allowed to participate on this proposed area.

You Hindus have a hard enough time deciding who is a proper follower of the Traditions. I don't think it is at all reasonable to expect such fine control unless you actually take the charge yourself, along with whoever agrees with you.

My personal feeling is that this is not something that should be proposed to the RF staff.

In a nutshell, I don't think that you want a separate Sanatana Dharma area in the Religious Forums, not even an Exclusive one. What you seem to truly want is a closed group, probably one whose staff you would be a part of.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hello

Buddhism or Jainism are not parts of Sanatana Dharma. Buddhism and jainism have their origins in recent decades, which is contradictory to the very definition of Sanatana (eternality).

Moreover Sanatana Dharma is defined as the complete acceptance of Vedic scriptures like Veda & Puranas, while In Buddhism or Jainism there's only partial acceptance of some vedic teachings but having lot of non-vedic and anti-vedic teachings.

Why can't we rename hinduism dir to hinduism(sanatana Dharma) dir ?

You can do anything you want, as a person. As long as you have the necessary approval of the other people involved.

It is clear to me that you have a challenge in reaching enough of an agreement, so I am stepping out for now.

 

[Stormcry]

The fundamental teachings of Hinduism , of course, are those which are considered astika, as distinguished from nastika.

Āstika and nāstika - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So why we shouldn't suggest a subdir named by Astika ? What's the significance of DIR named by Sanatana dharma as we have already created a Santana Dharma dir in the name of Hinduism DiR ?

 

[Ravi500]

Ravi thanks for clarifying.

As pointed out by ShivaFan and other posters, including me, two forums named "Hinduism" and "Sanatana Dharma" will add to more confusion.

In the Christianity forum, there are two forums -- Christianity DIR and Christianity in General DIR .

Perhaps this can be applicable in this regard in Hinduism too, Hinduism DIR (blue) and Hinduism in General DIR(green).

It also does not have to be named 'Hinduism in General DIR' , but also 'Indian Philosophy' or 'Other Hindu Traditions' as you have suggested in the below post, and which I second too.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3738069-post37.html

Already there is a Dharmic forum for this purpose.

Yes, but as Ratikalaji noted, it was not very effective in creating open discussions between all dharmic faiths. If the moderators can ensure that this does not take place in the future, then I have no issues.

 

[atanu]

In the Christianity forum, there are two forums -- Christianity DIR and Christianity in General DIR .

Perhaps this can be applicable in this regard in Hinduism too, Hinduism DIR (blue) and Hinduism in General DIR(green).

It also does not have to be 'Hinduism in General DIR' , but also 'Indian Philosophy' or 'Other Hindu Traditions' as you have suggested in the below post, and which I second too.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3738069-post37.html

'Other Hindu Traditions' or 'Nastikya' traditions' may be ok.

But i don't know. there is no guarantee that the 'Naskikya' view will not be imposed as paramarthika advaita view or the true Hindu view of the enlightened. This has been the real problem. Isn't it?

 

[LuisDantas]

Just a remark.

No matter how well-thought any classification of areas may be, you will still have to either deal with the occasional uninformed person that will simply post in the wrong area out of simply not knowing better, or choose to deny them access outright.

That, by its turn, means accepting the need to have a measure of courtesy with such a person or risking alienating him or her for no good reason.

Some of you may prefer to have an invitation-only area somewhere in order to avoid that bother. Something like the Theists Only! area or the Rainbow Room, where people have to specifically ask to be a part of, perhaps.

I can respect that. It is tiresome to be always prepared to deal with people who Simply Have Not Learned Yet. Just keep in mind that it goes a bit beyond a simple DIR. DIRs are supposed to accept well-meaning, respectful questions from people who Do Not Know Better.

 

[Ravi500]

Maybe a thread attempting to create a glossary in the Dharmic Religions would be a good idea.

A convenient place to quickly find out balanced, well-informed explanations about how exactly Hinduism, Vaidika Dharma, Arya Dharma and Sanatana Dharma relate to each other and which the main disagreements on the matter are, among other topics that some people perceive as controversial while others feel to be well resolved and behind them.

Instead of bringing the same points endlessly and tiring of them, you could them direct people to check the glossary thread and ask them to propose additions and changes there.

I must say that this is a good suggestion by LuisDantas. This can be put as a sticky.

I have been thinking alone these lines for the vedanta forum too. This can also be adopted for the many sanskrit terms in vedantic philosophy, which the forum members use to articulate concepts in the vedanta forum too.

Some of these terms escape my understanding too and bamboozle me.

We can put a glossary thread for these terms with their english meanings, so that the forum members and outside members too can understand the concepts which are being stated more clearly , imho.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

We can put a glossary thread for these terms with their english meanings, so that the forum members and outside members too can understand the concepts which are being stated more clearly , imho. This can be put as a sticky.

Taking friend Ravi's and LuisDantas's suggestion would propose friend atanu for the task.
for obvious reasons. Those who wish to second the proposal can do so and also request friend atanu to take up this dharmic karma or karmic dharma.

Love & rgds

 

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

Namaste Ratikala
Mostly this will be an isolated post from me here merely as an observation.The answer to your problems lay hidden in this key post by HLK:

Yes, brother. Hindu, Vedic, Arya are just adjectives given by us to our loving Dharma for viewing it from different angles . In reality, our greatest Dharma is Nameless.

Hindu Dharma = Hindu's Dharma ( Hindu word is derived from Vedic word Indu or Bharata. Hindu means who are descended from Indra or from Seven Rishis)

Vaidika dharma = Dharma based on Veda. This term is used to exclude Abrahamic religions and Buddhism or Jainism.

Arya Dharma = Dharma of Aryas. I see this term more accurate even than Vaidika. I have read the mention of this Arya Dharma term in many puranas. So this is the most ancient name of our Hinduism.

So HLK correctly points out "Arya Dharma" as the right word. Add to it SF's suggestion that the same Hinduism DIR needs renaming, that's all.

As we already know, there is a forum "hindudharmaforums" HDF which already caters to the needs of people who basically discuss everything under the sun of BhArata. For example there is currently a very popular thread "Narendra Modi.." started by a senior HDF member. It is understood that the posters here - Indian or not - are very much interested in understanding all the aspects of BhArata - including spiritual, social, cultural, political, etc.
And believe me, even there we have lot of churning going on, and no surprises if in future the forum becomes, say, "Bharatadharma forums".

So coming back, "Arya Dharma" is the right choice. The word has proper balance : Arya is more from Vedic tradition (where it is actually "Arya Varna" where Varna means "classification"), and Dharma which gives a more PurANic flavor. Again, as HLK has noted aptly, the word "Arya Dharma" has equal footing in both Vedas and PurANas.

A minuscule percentage of Hindus (Indians) are actually Arya (noble)/ Astika. I understand that by renaming the DIR as "Arya Dharma" will spare us their unhelpful rants.

There is more to add, especially on the more esoteric sides of the question and the aptness of the solution that has thus emerged, but I will end here.

KT

 

[LuisDantas]

Hello

Buddhism or Jainism are not parts of Sanatana Dharma. Buddhism and jainism have their origins in recent decades,

Congratulations. You have just called me a newborn, and yourself a newly conceived.

I see your point, and it is technically correct. 260 or so decades is still decades, and I guess that is more recent than 500 decades or who knows how many.

Still... "recent"?

which is contradictory to the very definition of Sanatana (eternality).

That is an odd objection to make. Do you oppose the training of new Gurus, since they would also be non-eternal?

Moreover Sanatana Dharma is defined as the complete acceptance of Vedic scriptures like Veda & Puranas, while In Buddhism or Jainism there's only partial acceptance of some vedic teachings but having lot of non-vedic and anti-vedic teachings.

That will always be questionable at best, you know. Although I will grant that the general direction is correct. This is not really what is being discussed.

In any case, "adherence to scriptures" is among the least useful, least healthy and least advisable of all religious criteria that I ever met. I personally value it at about dirt level, and advise everyone else to do the same.

Why can't we rename hinduism dir to hinduism(sanatana Dharma) dir ?

Make a poll, post in Site Feedback to bring the results to the attention of staff, and who knows, maybe it will happen.

 

[Asha]

Namaste

It is my understanding at the current time that what you are asking for is in fact a closed group, not really fitting for the open forums format of RF.

No, not at all I would love to see an open space just like any other DIR sub section ,

Why do you suggest closed ?

Who has asked for a closed DIR ?

The main problem, which I see as a true impediment, is that you want fine control about who is or is not allowed to participate on this proposed area.

Who has mentioned anything about fine control ?

surely there is control within the rules of the forum, I canot see that any other control is needed ?

You Hindus have a hard enough time deciding who is a proper follower of the Traditions. I don't think it is at all reasonable to expect such fine control unless you actually take the charge yourself, along with whoever agrees with you.

This is a problem faced by all religions. I do not think this is a problem which is particular to Hinduism. The shere diversity of Hindu traditions is emence, and I am surprised that there are not already other subsections, only Vedanta ?

My personal feeling is that this is not something that should be proposed to the RF staff.

In a nutshell, I don't think that you want a separate Sanatana Dharma area in the Religious Forums, not even an Exclusive one. What you seem to truly want is a closed group, probably one whose staff you would be a part of.

Why are you addressing these remarks to me ?

you are telling me that I do not want something when I have already said that I would welcome it ?

Prehaps you missunderstand me when I say private ? I dont mean colsed and secretive, Ijust mean that it would attract people who identify with Sanatana Dharma and it would be a nice place for them to discuss as I said with like minded people.

Please may I make a comparison to Islam DIR, there are five subsections so that each may discuss with other likeminded members of his or her branch if the islamic faith ?

Shi'ite DIR
An Islamic faith

Sunni DIR

Ahmadiyya DIR
An Islamic faith

Islamic Sufism DIR
An Islamic form of mysticism

Qur'anist DIR
A practice of Islam that relies on the Qur'an as the only authority without the hadith

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Luis ji :namaste

Hi Ratikala.


So you want a Sanatana Dharma DIR as a subforum tied to the Hinduism DIR (much like the Hinduism DIR itself is found under the Dharmic Religions DIR)?

jai jai , yes please that would be very nice

Maybe you want to ask me (or whoever you want to answer your question) this again in the Dharmic Religions DIR? Or even in one of the debate areas?

This is a blue DIR...

Ok fine I can transfer my question to Dharmic religions DIR If you feel more comfortable to discuss there .

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram :namaste

Congratulations. You have just called me a newborn, and yourself a newly conceived.

I see your point, and it is technically correct. 260 or so decades is still decades, and I guess that is more recent than 500 decades or who knows how many.

Still... "recent"?

Well ... Shiva fan ji said we must have a good sence of humor to be Hindu !!!

luis you will certainly laugh at this , ....I am laughing because If I do not laugh I will cry :sad4:

Originally Posted by Hinduism♥Krishna
Hello

Buddhism or Jainism are not parts of Sanatana Dharma. Buddhism and jainism have their origins in recent decades,

260 Decades that is nothing ....

500 Decades still nothing .....

the first Jain tirthankara Rishabha was born in the Iksvaku Dynasty ....!

I see our young Hinduism ♥ Krishna does not know very much about Jainism ?


nor has he read this verse ....

But Risabha went on, unperturbed by anything till he became sin-free like a conch that takes no black dot, without obstruction ... which is the epithet of the First World-teacher, may become the destroyer of enemies
—Rig Veda, X.166


this simply illistrates the ancient origins of the jain faith and its joint origin with Hinduism is thus recorded in the in the Rig veda

Rishabha of course predates the indologists Guestemate of the age of the rig veda by at least another 5000 years or more .....

so one could safely say that Jaunism has very ancient origins ....


make of that what you will ....

​

 

[Poeticus]

nor has he read this verse ....

But Risabha went on, unperturbed by anything till he became sin-free like a conch that takes no black dot, without obstruction ... which is the epithet of the First World-teacher, may become the destroyer of enemies
—Rig Veda, X.166


this simply illistrates the ancient origins of the jain faith and its joint origin with Hinduism is thus recorded in the in the Rig veda

Rishabha of course predates the indologists Guestemate of the age of the rig veda by at least another 5000 years or more .....

so one could safely say that Jaunism has very ancient origins ....


make of that what you will ....

​

R.V.10.166 has nothing to do with Jainism.
Plus, the text of the hymn would be pretty
violent for a Jain. The whole hymn pretty
much asks for victory against enemies, for
enemies to be vanquished under one's feet.​

And the hymn is dedicated to sapatna-nAshana:​

rival/enemy/adversary + destroying = destroyer of the enemy/enemy destroyer

... which is similar to epithets given to Agni & Indra.​

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Mv ji :namaste

R.V.10.166 has nothing to do with Jainism.
Plus, the text of the hymn would be pretty
violent for a Jain. The whole hymn pretty
much asks for victory against enemies, for
enemies to be vanquished under one's feet.​

And the hymn is dedicated to sapatna-nAshana:​

rival/enemy/adversary + destroying = destroyer of the enemy/enemy destroyer

... which is similar to epithets given to Agni & Indra.


​

please if you could give me the quotes in context I would like to read it....

namaskaram :namaste

 

[Poeticus]

namaskaram Mv ji :namaste



please if you could give me the quotes in context I would like to read it....

namaskaram :namaste

Rishi-s: Rishabha Vairaja & Shakvara
Devata: Sapatnanashana
Chanda-s: Anushtup - rica-s 1-4 & Mahapankitta - rica 5 (sp?)​

"Make me a bull among my peers, make my my rival's conquerer:
Make me the slayer of my foes, a sovran ruler, lord of kine.
I am my rivals' slayer, like Indra unwounded and unhurt,
And all these enemies of mine are vanquished and beneath my feet.
Here, verily, I bind you fast, as the two bow-ends [meet] with the strong.
Press down these men, O Lord of Speech, that they may humbly speak to me.
Hither I came as conqueror with mighty all-effecting power,
And I have mastered all your thought, your synod, and your holy work.
May I be highest, having gained your strength in war, your skill in peace,
My feet have trodden on your heads. Speak to me from beneath my feet,
as fronts from out the water croak, as frogs from out the water croak."​

(R.V.10.166.1-5)​

 

[Stormcry]

Pranam...

(I don't want to report those posts though someone is constantly abusing me... Because He/she doesn't know that he/she is talking with a vaishnawa. May God vishnu give peace to him/her )

Rishi-s: Rishabha Vairaja & Shakvara
Devata: Sapatnanashana
Chanda-s: Anushtup - rica-s 1-4 & Mahapankitta - rica 5 (sp?)​

"Make me a bull among my peers, make my my rival's conquerer:
Make me the slayer of my foes, a sovran ruler, lord of kine.
I am my rivals' slayer, like Indra unwounded and unhurt,
And all these enemies of mine are vanquished and beneath my feet.
Here, verily, I bind you fast, as the two bow-ends [meet] with the strong.
Press down these men, O Lord of Speech, that they may humbly speak to me.
Hither I came as conqueror with mighty all-effecting power,
And I have mastered all your thought, your synod, and your holy work.
May I be highest, having gained your strength in war, your skill in peace,
My feet have trodden on your heads. Speak to me from beneath my feet,
as fronts from out the water croak, as frogs from out the water croak."​

(R.V.10.166.1-5)​

Masterstroke poeticus ! Still anyone think I don't know about jainism's origin.. How many times hindus have to see distortion & misinterpretation done by jainism, Islam & Christianity only to show their own religion very ancient as hinduism is ! Jainism is very younger religion than Buddhism. According to scriptures, Buddhism is just about 2000 years old and jainism came from it much much later.

However Arya dharma which we call today Sanatana /Hindu dharma is the eternal dharma created by god vishnu himself when the creation of Veda happened or when the lord Brahma taught veda to his four mind sons..... It starts from creation & ends on total dissolution of universe including brahmaloka.. This cycles repeats continously..

Info about Buddhism as per Vedic scriptures : (Source :Wikipedia)

“

mohanārthaṃ dānavānāṃ bālarūpī pathi-sthitaḥ । putraṃ taṃ kalpayām āsa mūḍha-buddhir jinaḥ svayam ॥ tataḥ saṃmohayām āsa jinādyān asurāṃśakān । bhagavān vāgbhir ugrābhir ahiṃsā-vācibhir hariḥ ॥
—Brahmanda Purana, Bhāgavatatātparya by Madhva, 1.3.28
”
Translation: To delude the demons, he [Lord Buddha] stood on the path in the form of a child. The foolish Jina (a demon), imagined him to be his son. Thus the lord Sri Hari [as avatara-buddha] expertly deluded Jina and other demons by his strong words of non-violence.

In the Bhagavata Purana Buddha is said to have taken birth to restore the devas to power:
“

tataḥ kalau sampravṛtte sammohāya sura-dviṣām ।
buddho nāmnāñjana-sutaḥ kīkaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati ॥
—srimad-bhagavatam , 1.3.24
”
Translation: Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, for the purpose of confusing the enemies of the devas, [he] will become the son of Anjana, Buddha by name, in the Kīkaṭas.

In many Puranas, the Buddha is described as an incarnation of Vishnu who incarnated in order to delude either demons or mankind away from the Vedic dharma. The Bhavishya Purana contains the following:
“

At this time, reminded of the Kali Age, the god Vishnu became born as Gautama, the Shakyamuni, and taught the Buddhist dharma for ten years. Then Shuddodana ruled for twenty years, and Shakyasimha for twenty. At the first stage of the Kali Age, the path of the Vedas was destroyed and all men became Buddhists. Those who sought refuge with Vishnu's buddha avatar were deluded.

 

[Ravi500]

nor has he read this verse ....

But Risabha went on, unperturbed by anything till he became sin-free like a conch that takes no black dot, without obstruction ... which is the epithet of the First World-teacher, may become the destroyer of enemies
—Rig Veda, X.166


this simply illistrates the ancient origins of the jain faith and its joint origin with Hinduism is thus recorded in the in the Rig veda

Rishabha of course predates the indologists Guestemate of the age of the rig veda by at least another 5000 years or more .....

so one could safely say that Jaunism has very ancient origins ....


make of that what you will ....
​

Indeed, I have read too in the yoga vasistha of a young Rama talking about emulating a Jaina monk to his Guru Vasistha. I was quite surprised by this, and it showed that Jainism is much more ancient than thought.

 

[Ravi500]

Namaste Ratikala
Mostly this will be an isolated post from me here merely as an observation.The answer to your problems lay hidden in this key post by HLK:
So HLK correctly points out "Arya Dharma" as the right word. Add to it SF's suggestion that the same Hinduism DIR needs renaming, that's all.

A minuscule percentage of Hindus (Indians) are actually Arya (noble)/ Astika. I understand that by renaming the DIR as "Arya Dharma" will spare us their unhelpful rants.

Namaste Kalicharan,

Thank you for your comments.


I agree with you that Arya Dharma can be a name for Hinduism. Arya here means noble, cultured person in Hinduism.

However , I have seen that this term Aryan is used in an exclusivist sense in the forum, i.e racially related quite diametrically opposite to the sense with which it is meant in Hinduism.

As per the cultural , religious sense of the word, Aryan means noble, the one of ideal character, conduct and wisdom. Anyone can be an Arya in this world provided he has the given qualifications of character.

However I am surprised to find this distorted into a race-related exclusivist sense in the forum, and had to get into clarification mode in the process. I find my views echoed substantially in all the other Hindu forums too in the net.

This is very disturbing, considering what has happened in the last century, and I am not very comfortable being in the forum when corresponding race-related topics are discussed.

Let us not forget that many jews, gypsies, blacks too have embraced Hinduism and are entitled to the term Aryan if they are of ideal character, conduct and wisdom and especially if they are enlightened.

I back your proposal to name Hinduism as Arya Dharma too, as long as the term Aryan is used in the proper sense of the term as it is depicted in Hinduism and Buddhism i.e noble and wise, and not from any other perspective.