A serious question for the religious types about gay and trans people

[Ingledsva]

#13

shavaMember
Start a Conversation
Messages:
149
Religion:
Christian, Romans 16:16, non instrumental.
New
Leviticus 20:13יג וְאִישׁ, אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכַּב אֶת-זָכָר מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה--תּוֹעֵבָה עָשׂוּ, שְׁנֵיהֶם; מוֹת יוּמָתוּ, דְּמֵיהֶם בָּם 13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Hebrew bible used.

There is no - As with - in that sentence.

Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his SEED unto MOLECH; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Lev 20:3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his SEED unto MOLECH, to DEFILE MY SANCTUARY, and to profane my holy name.

Lev 20:4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he GIVITH of his SEED unto Molech, and kill him not:

Lev 20:5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a WHORING after him, TO COMMIT WHOREDOM WITH MOLECH, from among their people.

Lev 20:13 If834 a man376 also lie7901 with854 mankind,2145 as he lieth4904 with a woman,802 both8147 of them have committed6213 an abomination:8441 they shall surely be put to death;4191, 4191 their blood1818 shall be upon them.

There is no - as he lieth with - in that sentence. And 854 also means commemorative.

Lev. 20:13 If (834) Man (376) lies down (7901) for (854) commemorative (2145) sex/intercourse (4904) woman (802) both (8147) commit (6213) Idolatrous custom/abomination (8441) (worthy of) death (4192) (worthy of) death (4192) bloodshed (1818)

So, nope, Sacred Sex to Molech again.

*

 

[shava]

There is no - As with - in that sentence.

Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his SEED unto MOLECH; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Lev 20:3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his SEED unto MOLECH, to DEFILE MY SANCTUARY, and to profane my holy name.

Lev 20:4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he GIVITH of his SEED unto Molech, and kill him not:

Lev 20:5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a WHORING after him, TO COMMIT WHOREDOM WITH MOLECH, from among their people.

Lev 20:13 If834 a man376 also lie7901 with854 mankind,2145 as he lieth4904 with a woman,802 both8147 of them have committed6213 an abomination:8441 they shall surely be put to death;4191, 4191 their blood1818 shall be upon them.

There is no - as he lieth with - in that sentence. And 854 also means commemorative.

Lev. 20:13 If (834) Man (376) lies down (7901) for (854) commemorative (2145) sex/intercourse (4904) woman (802) both (8147) commit (6213) Idolatrous custom/abomination (8441) (worthy of) death (4192) (worthy of) death (4192) bloodshed (1818)

So, nope, Sacred Sex to Molech again.

*

Say what you wish, my verse speaks for itself. You contradict yourself by saying there is no [ as with ] then you say there is no [as he lieth with ] in the verse.

You and I both know you're twisting it to mean what " you " wanted to mean to justify a particular purpose for one's own desire, but you fail to do so because the scripture is clear on what this verse means.

ASV, 13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

BEB, 13 And if a man has sex relations with a man, the two of them have done a disgusting thing: let them be put to death; their blood will be on them.

KJV, 13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:13יג וְאִישׁ, אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכַּב אֶת-זָכָר מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה--תּוֹעֵבָה עָשׂוּ, שְׁנֵיהֶם; מוֹת יוּמָתוּ, דְּמֵיהֶם בָּם 13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Hebrew bible used.

 

[Ingledsva]

Say what you wish, my verse speaks for itself. You contradict yourself by saying there is no [ as with ] then you say there is no [as he lieth with ] in the verse.

ASV, 13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

BEB, 13 And if a man has sex relations with a man, the two of them have done a disgusting thing: let them be put to death; their blood will be on them.

LOL! "as with" and "as he lieth with" are different English translations ONLY. The IDEA "as with" is in error.

EDIT - Forgot to add - that BEB version is obviously an incorrect translation - as it has no "woman" in it.

*

 

[shava]

LOL! "as with" and "as he lieth with" are different English translations ONLY. The IDEA "as with" is in error.

EDIT - Forgot to add - that BEB version is obviously an incorrect translation - as it has no "woman" in it.

*

Proof that there wrong please, not just you saying there wrong, prove them wrong. BEB is clear, that if two men have sex relations it would be the same if two women were having sexual relations.


Sexuality[edit]
For more details on this topic, see The Bible and homosexuality.
Verse 22[edit]
The text of 18:22 :

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." KJV
'You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.' Revised Standard Version and English Standard Version
'And with a male thou dost not lie as one lieth with a woman; abomination it [is].' Youngs Literal Translation
'Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman: that is detestable' CEV
Some people[who?] interpret this to mean that the verse prohibits male homosexual acts. The major area of debate has then been over the hermeneutical question of whether and how this text applies to the modern Christian or Jewish situation (see The Bible and homosexuality and Biblical law in Christianity for that debate). As noted in the separate article on Leviticus, the book uses the word "abomination" 16 times, with the Hebrew word "sheqets" being used in describing dietary prohibitions (for example prohibiting shellfish and pork), mostly in Leviticus 11, and once for physical uncleanness (Leviticus 7:21), while "tô‛êbah" is used often for idolatry (Dt. 32:16) and specific other sins (Deuteronomy 24:4), for people who disobey God (Deuteronomy 25:16), and collectively for lists of sins. Leviticus 18:27–30; Proverbs 6:16-19).

The Talmud maintains the law prohibits all male homosexual activity including pederasty;

[14]



3 H376If a man H7901also lie [H8799] H2145with mankind H4904, as he lieth H802with a woman H8147, both H6213of them have committed [H8804] H8441an abomination H4191: they shall surely [H8800] H4191be put to death [H8714] H1818; their blood shall be upon them.

 

[Tumah]

There is no - As with - in that sentence.

Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his SEED unto MOLECH; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Lev 20:3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his SEED unto MOLECH, to DEFILE MY SANCTUARY, and to profane my holy name.

Lev 20:4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he GIVITH of his SEED unto Molech, and kill him not:

Lev 20:5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a WHORING after him, TO COMMIT WHOREDOM WITH MOLECH, from among their people.

Lev 20:13 If834 a man376 also lie7901 with854 mankind,2145 as he lieth4904 with a woman,802 both8147 of them have committed6213 an abomination:8441 they shall surely be put to death;4191, 4191 their blood1818 shall be upon them.

There is no - as he lieth with - in that sentence. And 854 also means commemorative.

Lev. 20:13 If (834) Man (376) lies down (7901) for (854) commemorative (2145) sex/intercourse (4904) woman (802) both (8147) commit (6213) Idolatrous custom/abomination (8441) (worthy of) death (4192) (worthy of) death (4192) bloodshed (1818)

So, nope, Sacred Sex to Molech again.

*

I'm not really sure what you're saying here.
Verses 1-5 speak about worshiping Molech.
Verse 6 gives other examples of neighboring worship that is prohibited.
Verses 7-8 give a general command to be separate [from other nations].
The next 13 verses give other examples of things that a man must separate from.

Lev. 20:13
ואיש - and [a] man
אשר - that/which
ישכב - he will lay
את - (direct object marker)
זכר - male
משכבי - layings of
אשה - woman
תועבה - abomination
עשו - they did
שניהם - two of them
מות - dead
יומתו - they will die
דמיהם - their bloods
בם - in them

There is no indication that this verse should be related to the Molech verses. It would also be an anomaly if that were so. You'd have to interpret cursing one's parents, committing adultery with a married woman, or one's step-mother or daughter-in-law as only being prohibited in some Molech worship. Which has no basis.

Salient to the thread, as a religious person, I have no problem with anyone having homosexual urges. I also have no problem with non-Jews engaging in homosexuality. And this verse only prohibits male homosexuality. Female homosexuality being a Rabbinical Enactment that doesn't apply to non-Jews whatsoever. The only thing I care about is ensuring that my family and my people understand that its not acceptable for us.

Similarly, changing organs (I don't know how to say "transsexual" as a verb) is something that only has repercussions in Jewish Law. I don't see why that should be extended to non-Jews.

 

[Ingledsva]

Proof that there wrong please, not just you saying there wrong, prove them wrong. BEB is clear, that if two men have sex relations it would be the same if two women were having sexual relations.

The proof is that the sentence does not say males are having sex AS WITH A WOMAN!

There is NO AS WITH in the sentence.

*

 

[Tumah]

Proof that there wrong please, not just you saying there wrong, prove them wrong. BEB is clear, that if two men have sex relations it would be the same if two women were having sexual relations.

That's not what it means. It means if two men engage in the type of intimacy that a man normally has with a woman. "As with a woman" in your translation is meant to say, "as a man would lay with a woman".

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm not really sure what you're saying here.
Verses 1-5 speak about worshiping Molech.
Verse 6 gives other examples of neighboring worship that is prohibited.
Verses 7-8 give a general command to be separate [from other nations].
The next 13 verses give other examples of things that a man must separate from.

Lev. 20:13
ואיש - and [a] man
אשר - that/which
ישכב - he will lay
את - (direct object marker)
זכר - male
משכבי - layings of
אשה - woman
תועבה - abomination
עשו - they did
שניהם - two of them
מות - dead
יומתו - they will die
דמיהם - their bloods
בם - in them

There is no indication that this verse should be related to the Molech verses. It would also be an anomaly if that were so. You'd have to interpret cursing one's parents, committing adultery with a married woman, or one's step-mother or daughter-in-law as only being prohibited in some Molech worship. Which has no basis.

Salient to the thread, as a religious person, I have no problem with anyone having homosexual urges. I also have no problem with non-Jews engaging in homosexuality. The only thing I care about is ensuring that my family and my people understand that its not acceptable for us.

It is indeed a strange sentence. And as you obviously know, - some of those words can have other meanings.

All of the prohibited sex acts in 20 were performed by these Pagan people. We know they met on sacred days just like later pagans on fertility celebrations, - and had sex even with close relatives.

In the midst are these (below,) - which are also in Psalms 18:21-24 which says it is specifically Molech worship.

Lev 20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

Lev 20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It should be connected to the Molech verses - because - ALL - of these so-called - against homosexuals verses - are in texts about Qadesh, and Sacred Sex to Molech.

There are no - so-called against homosexual verses - that don't have these words around them. Look at the surrounding text in all of them.

*

 

[Tumah]

It is indeed a strange sentence. And as you obviously know, - some of those words can have other meanings.

All of the prohibited sex acts in 20 were performed by these Pagan people. We know they met on sacred days just like later pagans on fertility celebrations, - and had sex even with close relatives.

In the midst are these (below,) - which are also in Psalms 18:21-24 which says it is specifically Molech worship.

Lev 20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

Lev 20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It should be connected to the Molech verses - because - ALL - of these so-called - against homosexuals verses - are in texts about Qadesh, and Sacred Sex to Molech.

There are no - so-called against homosexual verses - that don't have these words around them. Look at the surrounding text in all of them.

*

You are conflating Molech worship (which to my knowledge is only ever associated with passing one's child through fire), and general pagan practices. The verses in Lev. 18 are including Molech worship among general pagan practices of adultery, bestiality, etc. Verse 18:24 gives a summation of the previous 18 verses into one idea: "don't make yourself impure with all of these, because with all of these the nations became impure". It doesn't sum them up as idol worship, or Molech worship.

Molech worship is usually put into verses that speak about a variety of pagan divination and magic rituals, not related to a kadesha. Kadesha is only mentioned in Deut. 23:18. There is no mention of Molech there. In 2 Kings 23, its mentioned in reference to Asherah worship, not Molech.

There is no mention of a kadeshah or any derivative of the root in chapter 18, and the only derivatives of the root in chapter 20 are all in a positive context. I think you are referring to the word "zonah" which is used in Lev. 20:5.

This word is mostly used to indicate a paid encounter. Its used by Dinah, Tamar and Rahab. Using this word in connection with Molech worship which is described as sacrificing one's child by fire is mentioned more than 10 times. This is the only time that the word "z'nuth" is used in connection with Molech worship. The Rabbis derive from here a prohibition to worship an idol in a manner inconsistent with its intended mode of worship.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There are even instances of gay people receiving extra blessings for their devotion.

The gay people's blessings actually is welcome and considered necessary. We give gifts to LGBTQ on all happy occasions, birth of a child, marriage, buying aof a new house, etc. They and prostitutes are necessary part of a religious procession. All prosperous Hindus have been blessed by LGBTQ at the time of their births. They now have a religious order of their own.

Devi temples for LGBTQ - Bahuchara, Yellamma, God for LGBTQ, Iravan, Blessings from LGBTQ, procession of the transgender religious order, its chief (who was an engineer).

 

[shava]

It is indeed a strange sentence. And as you obviously know, - some of those words can have other meanings.

All of the prohibited sex acts in 20 were performed by these Pagan people. We know they met on sacred days just like later pagans on fertility celebrations, - and had sex even with close relatives.

In the midst are these (below,) - which are also in Psalms 18:21-24 which says it is specifically Molech worship.

Lev 20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

Lev 20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It should be connected to the Molech verses - because - ALL - of these so-called - against homosexuals verses - are in texts about Qadesh, and Sacred Sex to Molech.

There are no - so-called against homosexual verses - that don't have these words around them. Look at the surrounding text in all of them.

*

You're trying to say that the bible condones same sex

That's not what it means. It means if two men engage in the type of intimacy that a man normally has with a woman. "As with a woman" in your translation is meant to say, "as a man would lay with a woman".

The proof is that the sentence does not say males are having sex AS WITH A WOMAN!

There is NO AS WITH in the sentence.

*

Again, you fail to cite reference that supports your claim. What bible do you reference from? Do you believe that Jesus already came? Do you consider the KJV, NKJV, ASV,NASV, NEB, NIV, NLT all to be completely faulty in what they say about same sex relations? Are you by chance gay?

 

[shava]

LOL! "as with" and "as he lieth with" are different English translations ONLY. The IDEA "as with" is in error.

EDIT - Forgot to add - that BEB version is obviously an incorrect translation - as it has no "woman" in it.

*

Proof that the BEB is a faulty version, as once again, you're giving your opinion instead of citing reference to back up your claim.

 

[Tumah]

Again, you fail to cite reference that supports your claim. What bible do you reference from? Do you believe that Jesus already came? Do you consider the KJV, NKJV, ASV,NASV, NEB, NIV, NLT all to be completely faulty in what they say about same sex relations? Are you by chance gay?

My reference is the Hebrew. You can find my direct word-for-word translation above. Although honestly, anyone of those would probably be just fine. The problem is not your translation but that you're not understanding correctly what you're reading.

I don't know what the phrase "already came" means. Perhaps you meant to ask if I believe the messiah already came. I don't think anyone who believes the person existed, doesn't believe that he was already born. The question is whether he was the messiah.
That being said, I don't see what Jesus or my sexual preferences has to do with any of this. Those are kind of...weird questions in this context.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why do you care? If I decide to get freaky withy another guy, (I'd pick @columbus so I could be the dude, btw) what possible affect does it have on your life, or your relationship with God? If I decide to get 10 inches of pecker chopped off (ladies, how you doin'?) and wear dresses, how does it impact you?

My "god-fearing", baptist preaching, co-worker said one person she met someone who is gay who "got saved" and now is married with two children. Some people don't know what it means when someone is gay so one reason is they want to save them from actions (rather than orientation) that they feel separates them from god. Some Christians who are gay feel they have temptations and maybe interpret their orientations as temptations so maybe their congregation cares to help them from that.

Their concern is based on not understanding what homosexuality is and really not asking people who are homosexual (sexual orientation) who they are and how they relate to people they actually love rather than translating another person's love as lust.

I would get pitch forks and pickett signs and march the streets, but I have to work. Oh well.

 

[shava]

My reference is the Hebrew. You can find my direct word-for-word translation above. Although honestly, anyone of those would probably be just fine. The problem is not your translation but that you're not understanding correctly what you're reading.

I don't know what the phrase "already came" means. Perhaps you meant to ask if I believe the messiah already came. I don't think anyone who believes the person existed, doesn't believe that he was already born. The question is whether he was the messiah.
That being said, I don't see what Jesus or my sexual preferences has to do with any of this. Those are kind of...weird questions in this context.

One must live according to God's word, that is if one believes in God. Jesus died for our sins, and being gay is a sin that has to be stopped before one can be saved or else they'll spend eternity separated from God. Show me what part you feel am I not understanding correctly.

 

[oldbadger]

.....................If I decide to get freaky withy another guy, (I'd pick @columbus .........................................

Wot!!?
Wot's wrong with me?!
Anybody'd fink I looked like a dog or somint.

 

[Tumah]

One must live according to God's word, that is if one believes in God. Jesus died for our sins, and being gay is a sin that has to be stopped before one can be saved or else they'll spend eternity separated from God.

Whether I agree or disagree is irrelevant to determining what the verse is saying. Which is what we're here to do. So, try to represent yourself well here.

Show me what part you feel am I not understanding correctly.

Lev. 20:13
ואיש - and [a] man
אשר - that/which
ישכב - he will lay
את - (direct object marker)
זכר - male
משכבי - layings of
אשה - woman
תועבה - abomination
עשו - they did
שניהם - two of them
מות - dead
יומתו - they will die
דמיהם - their bloods
בם - in them

The verse (and your translations) are speaking about when a man will lay with another man, in the manner that a man lays with a woman. Its not saying that the law applies to both men and women. Its explaining what type of laying is being spoken about by explaining it as the type of laying that a man does with a woman.

 

[oldbadger]

One must live according to God's word, that is if one believes in God. Jesus died for our sins, and being gay is a sin that has to be stopped before one can be saved or else they'll spend eternity separated from God. Show me what part you feel am I not understanding correctly.

No....wrong!
If Jesus died for our sins, why would the 'so-called' sin of being Gay be any exception?
So you can commit really bad crimes and be saved, yet Gays go to hell?
That's gobbledegook even by extreme-Christian standards. By Human standards it's just rubbish.
And Jesus did not feel strongly about any of it.... it was the maniac Paul who caused all this rubbish.

 

[oldbadger]

Quite right. It also seems daft to me that a supreme being would care what people get up to in the bedroom, unless it is a voyeur ( oooh, kinky ).

It's ok in the bedroom! Big G doesn't mind if it's in the bedroom.
It's only a sin if it happens in cars, yachts, the woods etc.
You know nuffin'!

 

[columbus]

Wot!!?
Wot's wrong with me?!
Anybody'd fink I looked like a dog or somint.

Personally, I like mature guys. The generic term is "daddies" .
Google "power bottom" and get back to me.

If you want to, that is.
Tom