A serious question for the religious types about gay and trans people

[Wirey]

God has feelings? Of what?

 

[Ingledsva]

...There is a condition idetified as mental disorder. I don't recall it's tittle but the condition leaves people wanting to cut off their limbs or become cripple. the desire to harms one self has always been a disease. ...

speaking of which, sexuality is a choice. even though we have a desire to procreate - that desire is from nature's desire to live and continue a population. to have kids. since we can come to the conclusion that certain sexual acts are not generated from the goal of having a family - these acts are decision based. they are a choice. with choices comes the question - what is right or wrong.
...

Homosexuality is not a mental disorder, as noted by science.

Sexuality is NOT a choice. Look it up.

Both heterosexuals and homosexuals can choose to not have sex; - but why should they condemn themselves to being monks for the rest of their lives?

So you think child producing sex, is the only right kind? SO, - heterosexuals that can't have children should become monks and have no sex for the rest of their lives?

Interesting!

Your religion does not dictate to the rest of us - what is right concerning sex!

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[Ingledsva]

You can deny all you want, but God is clear on how he feels about same sex and same sex marriage..
The New Testament is in effect, and God's feelings were transferred to make sure that his feelings were not forgotten on the same sex issue.

Interesting how you can't actually counter what I've said, - isn't it!

Perhaps eventually you will open your heart and mind.

PS - How interesting that the only God "feelings" transferred to the NT are the ones YOU want, and not the rest! LOL!

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[Wirey]

You can deny all you want, but God is clear on how he feels about same sex and same sex marriage..
The New Testament is in effect, and God's feelings were transferred to make sure that his feelings were not forgotten on the same sex issue.

I'm hung up on this God's feelings thing. What feelings? God has emotions?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It isn't even that, IMNSHO.
Irresponsible sex can do a lot of damage.

Irresponsible everything can do a lot of damage.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

People relate the word gay, homosexual and queer, with those whose sexual preference is of the same sex.

How does their sexual preference have to specifically do with homosexual actions?

 

[shava]

Homosexuality is not a mental disorder, as noted by science.

Sexuality is NOT a choice. Look it up.

Both heterosexuals and homosexuals can choose to not have sex; - but why should they condemn themselves to being monks for the rest of their lives?

So you think child producing sex, is the only right kind? SO, - heterosexuals that can't have children should become monks and have no sex for the rest of their lives?

Interesting!

Your religion does not dictate to the rest of us - what is right concerning sex!

*

To me, it does dictate, but to you it doesn't.

 

[shava]

Interesting how you can't actually counter what I've said, - isn't it!

Perhaps eventually you will open your heart and mind.

PS - How interesting that the only God "feelings" transferred to the NT are the ones YOU want, and not the rest! LOL!

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Are you in a same sex relationship, if I may ask?

 

[Ingledsva]

Are you in a same sex relationship, if I may ask?

Don't you read your replies? I already answered that.

NO, - I am in a long term, loving, live-in, relationship with two MEN. We are a forever family.

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[shava]

Don't you read your replies? I already answered that.

NO, - I am in a long term, loving, live-in, relationship with two MEN. We are a forever family.

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Marriage is honorable, that being a man and a woman.
Genesis 2:22-24
Chapter Parallel Compare
22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.” 24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.


Does your bible dispute marriage also as it does same sex relationships?

 

[Vinayaka]

Why do you care?

Wirey, I'm totally with you on this. I really don't care. For the life of me, I have no idea why other people care either. Who I vote for, what goes on in my bedroom, what I eat, how I sleep, the medication I'm on, blah blah, blah are certainly nobody else;s business.

It does fascinate me though, that people go on and on with their hate rants, and never really answer the direct question, "Why do you care?"

 

[Ingledsva]

Marriage is honorable, that being a man and a woman.

So are same-sex marriages, and other types of families, and old folks just living together, rather than marrying, to save their incomes, etc.

Genesis 2:22-24
Chapter Parallel Compare
22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.” 24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

Actually I have a paper on this subject as well.

Adam means human - not male.

According to some Jewish sources - this human is BOTH male and female. In the image of the Elohiym - male and female - created.

Thus requiring a HALF, - not a rib, - being separated so they could procreate.

Does your bible dispute marriage also as it does same sex relationships?

What does marriage between heterosexuals - have to do with same-sex relationships, or any other kind?

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[shava]

So are same-sex marriages, and other types of families, and old folks just living together, rather than marrying, to save their incomes, etc.



Actually I have a paper on this subject as well.

Adam means human - not male.

According to some Jewish sources - this human is BOTH male and female. In the image of the Elohiym - male and female - created.

Thus requiring a HALF, - not a rib, - being separated so they could procreate.



What does marriage between heterosexuals - have to do with same-sex relationships, or any other kind?

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Marriage is between a man and a woman, not two of the same sex. This is all about what God thinks, not man. People live according to there own desire instead of what God commands.

 

[Acim]

Well put.

The minor thing I think can be explained easily. There's no possibility of consent. A child is not capable of determining whether or not they are ready for that relationship, while gay adults are. If I refuse to protect a child, really I'm condoning rape and that does affect me, as I may be next. When someone behaves in a predatory manner in my society they affect me. When two adults choose to be together, they don't as I have no role (except maybe as a neighbor).

How does that affect you? It could be happening tonight, and please let me know exactly how it is impacting you, your life?

 

[Ingledsva]

Marriage is between a man and a woman, not two of the same sex. This is all about what God thinks, not man. People live according to there own desire instead of what God commands.

Marriage is a contract between two people, and has nothing to do with religion.

You have no proof of your God, - let alone what he commands.

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[Tumah]

Encyclopaedia Judaica, Jewish virtual Library doesn't agree with you.

You missed the point of that text - they are the same. If you see Molech it is also Hadad-Ba'al/Milcom and Ashtoreth worship. That is why they are all together in that one text.

Did you miss that part where it said their worship included Sacred Sex, AND children passed through the fire?

"Other biblical texts refer to the sacrifice of children. Psalms 106:37–38 speaks of child sacrifice to the unnamed idols of Canaan. In prophetic sources, Jeremiah 7:31 and Ezekiel 20:25–6 speak disapprovingly of sacrificing children to Yahweh (for the "bad statutes" referred to by Ezekiel, see Ex. 22:28–29; but see Friebel); Jeremiah 19:5 speaks of sacrificing children to Baal; Ezekiel 16:21, 20:31, 23:37, 39 of sacrificing children to unnamed divinities; as does Isaiah 57:5. In none of these is there a mention of Moloch. Only in Jeremiah 32:35 is Moloch mentioned by name and there he is associated with Baal." http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/moloch.html

"Another expression occurring in the Punic inscriptions מלכאדם, turned out to be even more crucial for the understanding of the Hebrew molekh. Here again some scholars understood the term as human sacrifice. However, as in the case of מלכ אמר, no objective evidence has been found for this interpretation of מלכאדם. The most plausible explanation is, as has already been suggested, that the term means "king of humankind," and is the epithet of the god to whom the inscription is dedicated. The word "king" was indeed a common attribute of the deities in the Phoenician-Punic sphere, e.g., Melkart ("king of the city," i.e., Tyre), מלכבעל, etc. El, the head of the Canaanite pantheon, later identified with Kronos, was named Malkandros (Plutarch, De Iside et Osiride, 16) which means "king of man" (Greek aner [gen. andros], "man"), in other words מלכאדם. This is corroborated by evidence from the Assyrian-Aramean sphere where the epithet "King" is applied to the god Adad/Hadad, who is identified with the Canaanite-Phoenician Baal – was also called "King," cf. מלכבעל – "Baal is king." The identification of Hadad-Baal with Moloch provides the background to Jeremiah 32:35, which fulminates against the bamot-altars of Baal in the valley of Ben-Hinnom where male and female children were burnt to Moloch, i.e., Baal-Hadad." http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/moloch.html

"As will be shown below, the introduction of the Moloch coincided with the introduction of the worship of the "queen of the heaven," although the latter persisted after the reform of Josiah whereas the Moloch cult seems to have perished following the reform. The worship of the Moloch along with the worship of the "queen of the heaven" are therefore to be seen against the background of the widespread worship in the Assyro-Aramean culture of Adad/Hadad, the king, and Ishtar Ashtarth/Anath, the queen, that began in the ninth-eighth century B.C.E. ...

... As already indicated above, the legal and historical sources speak about passing children to Moloch in fire. According to the rabbinic interpretation, this prohibition is against passing children through fire and then delivering them to the pagan priests. In other words, according to this interpretation, this refers to an initiation rite. This kind of initiation or consecration is actually attested to in various cultures (see T.H. Gaster, in bibl.) and the Septuagint interprets Deuteronomy 18:10 in a similar manner. ... The common denominator of all these traditions is the understanding of Moloch worship as the transfer of Jewish children to paganism either by delivering them directly to pagan priests or by procreation through intercourse with a pagan woman. ..." http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/moloch.html, Encyclopaedia Judaica.

Quite interesting in view off these texts we are discussing - and Deu 23:17 -

Deu 23:17 There shall be no Qedeshah of the daughters of Israel, nor a Qadesh of the sons of Israel. (These Qadesh are Sacred Temple Prostitutes of Hadad/Ba'al/Milcom/Molech, etc., and Ashtoreth)

"The name Moloch results from a dysphemic vocalisation in the Second Temple period of a theonym based on the root mlk "king" and lmlk to the king. There are a number of Canaanite gods with names based on this root, which became summarily associated with Moloch, including Biblical מַלְכָּם Malkam "great king" (KJV Milcom) rendered 'mlkm', which appears to refer to a god of the Ammonites, as well as Tyrian Melqart and others. The 'sacrifice' theory is supported by thousands of clay seals stamped with lmlk from the time of King Hezekiah which indicate the term refers to a religious tithe, and the lack of any reference to a specific god named Moloch beyond the extrapolation that the biblical text is using lmlk as a name which is traditional but not supported by other materials (see below under 'Name')." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch

PS - it doesn't look (on my screen) like the Hebrew transferred correctly, - but oh well, - you can always go to the site.
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You didn't address all the points I made.

You already established that temple prostitution was an element of Ashtoreth worship. So when the three are mentioned together, we should associate the prostitution with Ashtoreth worship, rather than Molech worship.

I mentioned earlier that Qadeshah has broader usage than just temple prostitution (although it can be used to refer to that as well). Nor when its used in the context of temple prostitution, is it limited to specific deities.
See Gen. 38 where Tamar is referred to as both a ZoNaH and QaDeSHaH. There's no indication of any temple in the text, just a road. Verse 15 says he thought she was a ZoNaH, but when he asks about her, he asks about a QaDeSHaH.

Also, if you take Deut. 23:18 together with verse 19, it makes more sense to read it as referring to prostitution in general.
Verse 18 is prohibiting prostitution among Jews and verse 19 is prohibiting using the payment for a prostitute (either from one who transgressed the previous commandment or from a non-Jewish one). These would both be new, related commandments.
In your interpretation, verse 18 prohibits intercourse as a form of idol worship (idol worship already being prohibited). And the next verse speaks about the completely unrelated topic of prostitution payments.

 

[Wirey]

How does that affect you? It could be happening tonight, and please let me know exactly how it is impacting you, your life?

The absence of protection for the helpless under law opens me up to attack as well. If any form of rape is legal, they all are.

 

[Acim]

The absence of protection for the helpless under law opens me up to attack as well. If any form of rape is legal, they all are.

So, see you have to really stretch logic for it to have any impact on your life. Which I think helps understand the OP inquiry better and how do certain things impact you.

I see it as the quick response is - it doesn't impact your life, and you (everyone) knows this. But pass a few moral judgments and stretch the logic to this could plausibly open me up to that immorality/attack and suddenly we, who care about them, are righteous to do everything we can to prevent them from being like that.

And yet, as stated in my previous post, it could be occurring tonight in your neck of the woods and I'm feeling fairly confident that there's not a darn thing you (or anyone) will do about it. But if you were to directly find out about it, let condemnation and punishment be on the table. And then wonder how that doesn't impact you. Good luck.

 

[shava]

Marriage is a contract between two people, and has nothing to do with religion.

You have no proof of your God, - let alone what he commands.

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God created marriage, not man. Do you have proof of your God? Living anyway one desires doesn't get one to heaven, anymore than not believing there is a God, only a life described in the New Testament will.

 

[shava]

So are same-sex marriages, and other types of families, and old folks just living together, rather than marrying, to save their incomes, etc.



Actually I have a paper on this subject as well.

Adam means human - not male.

According to some Jewish sources - this human is BOTH male and female. In the image of the Elohiym - male and female - created.

Thus requiring a HALF, - not a rib, - being separated so they could procreate.



What does marriage between heterosexuals - have to do with same-sex relationships, or any other kind?

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According to some Jewish sources you state, care to give us those " some " Jewish sources? I prefer to put my trust in God, not some Jewish man who doesn't even believe Jesus is the messiah. You say, "What does marriage between heterosexuals - have to do with same-sex relationships, or any other kind?" I say, nothing at all, as I'm talking about same sex marriage.