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A simple case for intelligent design

tas8831

Well-Known Member
DNA is clearly encoding/a language, we have no known example of more information being created via DNA

This is why I asked for a definition.

The Intelligent Design/creation advocates I have encountered in the past have a tendency to define information such that it cannot increase via natural means (rig the game).

Lee Spetner, creationist, wrote a book in which he claimed increasing enzyme specificity is increasing information, and declared that this does not take place naturally. He failed to explain how this is all-encompassing, but as was just discussed, white blood cells can increase their receptor specificity via mutation and selection. Receptors are not enzymes, but an increase in specificity seems to fit the general bill. Therefore, Spetner was wrong.


DNA is instructions to make amino acids, life is proteins with instructions to make proteins, begging certain questions...
Which questions are those?
Please keep in mind that only creationists posit life emerging as-is, evolutionists understand that the first life, whatever it may have been, was likely very different from even basic living things today.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Define a relevant application for "complexity" in each of those cases.

The OP of this thread established only that using IDcreationism techniques and definitions, one must conclude that everything is the result of human design.

I've yet to see anything that would indicate otherwise.

Really? VERY VERY VERY VERY complex are the answer in each cases--BEYOND human design, BEYOND random design. That's the point.

Michael Behe was NOT a creationist when he wrote black box. He only moved toward Christianity when evangelicals embraced him, not just his work, unlike Catholic friends, when Black Box came out. I met the man, and helped host a dinner in his honor. One of "aha" moments was "the order of operations in one cell rivals that of the entire city of Chicago, all its creatures, infrastructure..."
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Of course I do! I hold the hypothesis of God to *exactly* the same standards.

What actual, testable predictions has the hypothesis of God produced?

What mathematical theory describes the interaction of God with matter?

What alternative explanations have been proposed, tested, and rejected because of the evidence?

What theoretical proposals are there for the composition of God that can be tested (if not with current technology)?

What sort of evidence would show that the God hypothesis is invalid?

The Dark matter hypothesis passes ALL of these tests easily. The God hypothesis passes NONE of them.

So, yes, I hold the God hypothesis to the exact same standards I do any other hypothesis. And it fails miserably when evaluated by those standards.

For one of a number of notable examples, God says to test Him--specifically test Him--in tithes and offerings. Every natural law and I we know of math says, "Giving money away, neither saving nor investing it, should reduce total income."

I've seen God come through every time, hundreds of times. An observation that is that consistent, hundreds of times, goes against all statistical probability.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
No, we know gravity exists because we can measure it and test it. Gravitons are a theoretical possibility, but certainly NOT proven at this point. They arise naturally when attempts are made to unify general relativity and quantum mechanics, both of which are well-tested descriptions of the universe. That is why the notion of gravitons is taken seriously.

1. God has no testable consequences: predictions that, if they fail, would disprove the hypothesis.

2. Wrong. I don't think everything has a cause. Causality is the sum of uncaused, probabilistic events.

3. Not at all. We know gravity exists, again, because we can *measure* it. And we can perform such measurements in exquisite detail; enough to distinguish Newton's description from Einsteins, from MOND, etc. No such measurements are possible for the God hypothesis.

See other reply. Thanks.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
To conclude that a belief is false by appealing to the origin of the belief is a fallacy.
You fail to understand how the conclusion was drawn - you are making hasty generalizations. It is not an appeal to the origin, it is concluding that the supposed evidence presented is window dressing and that the 'origin' IS actually what most such folk are driven to argue in favor of in the first place, facts be damned.
It is easily seen on these sorts of forums - creationists often start out full of bombast and confidence, having read a creationist book or website or seen some youtube videos, and they are ready to DEMOLISH some evilutionist god-haters with their newly found "facts". In short order, the shortcomings of their position becomes clear (the argument via analogy to human activity for IDC, for example). They soon find themselves unable to counter rebuttals. They soon realize, at some level, that they are wrong, and so fall back on their Faith, presenting bible verses instead of even trying to discuss the science.. I have seen it hundreds of times.

"They believe in GodDidIt because anything else conflicts with their deeply held religious views."

That is what it boils down to for many creationists - in my experience, that is the underlying premise for nearly all of them, the attempt to argue 'science' is just window dressing.

For me, there came a point, about 20 years ago, when I stopped giving 'new' creationists I encountered the benefit of the doubt that their scientific arguments were potentially valid and that they earnestly believed that the science they were presenting damaged evolution and supported creation. I reached that point after engaging dozens of such folk, without a single example in which their science was valid, legitimate, meaningful, etc. After reading numerous creationist books and hundreds of essays on sites like ICR, AiG, the DI, etc. - nearly all littered with half-truths, misdirection, even outright falsehoods - all being unquestioningly parroted and presented as TRUTH by the creationist of the day. And upon demonstrating the errors of their claims, and the claims of their sources, getting only threats of damnation and the posting of Scripture in return. After that, I saw little reason NOT to employ, as you want to describe it, the genetic fallacy. But it was a conclusion based on experience, not a prejudicial or otherwise uninformed position.
Pretend that I believe that Jupiter is the largest planet in our solar system, just because I saw it in a cartoon, does that makes my believe false?

No, because there is empirical evidence for that which you could present if asked.

Were you to declare that Uranus was the largest planet because an ancient manuscript said so, and you were able to find some people with college degrees that agreed and had websites and books on the subject (all ultimately based on that ancient manuscript) and you entered a debate based on the information gleaned from those people, and your claims were refuted by those with real evidence, and you fell back on 'but this ancient manuscript said so!'...

What then?

Were I to describe that as 'he just thinks Uranus is the largest planet because of his devotion to some ancient manuscript', would that be a fallacy?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Entropy is a statistical law, not a fundamental one. We know of cases where entropy can spontaneously decrease in a closed system (if the system has few particles).

There is a difference between the notion of a 'cause' and of a 'creator'. Not all causes are creators: the latter has a consciousness, but the former need not.

The tendency of all things in this universe toward entropy is not a fundamental axiom?!
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I'm just asking you why you expect that science should be able to replicate the tree of life. It's not moving any goal posts.

Why do you think it should? There are many theories in science that can't be tested via replicating them under artificial conditions.

Sorry are we speaking of a taxonomic tree or the tree of the Garden of good and evil or...?

There is no control experiment for "no God", it requires omniscience to prove this universal negative. There’s plenty of evidence for God, none against. Atheism is a willful, not an informed, decision IMHO.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Er, well that would mean it was written after the events it purports to prophesy.

No, that would mean skeptics are wrong. There was no archaeology two centuries before Christ, but the details of Torah are verifiable to 12 centuries before, via archaeology.

Archaeology in hundreds of instances shows the Bible was written exactly when conservatives know it was written.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Yes.
VERY VERY VERY VERY complex are the answer in each cases--BEYOND human design, BEYOND random design. That's the point.

No, that is the assertion.

Michael Behe was NOT a creationist when he wrote black box. He only moved toward Christianity when evangelicals embraced him, not just his work, unlike Catholic friends, when Black Box came out. I met the man, and helped host a dinner in his honor. One of "aha" moments was "the order of operations in one cell rivals that of the entire city of Chicago, all its creatures, infrastructure..."
He also accepts common descent and an old earth and such.

I have met people with far more scientific relevance than him who find his work irrelevant - and truly, what 'work' has he actually done? He actually declared at the Dover trial that it was not up to him to test his ideas.

So what is your point?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
"Darwinians" :confused: don't hide anything. There's no worldwide conspiracy. Small changes occur, and accumulate. If enough changes accumulate you have a "kind" very different from the prototype. There's nothing telling the changes to stop occurring so as to avoid too much change.

Consider: Language evolves, by small changes, all the time. At what point did Latin turn into French?
Small changes accumulate into big changes.
I don't follow. Why would evolution require more information? An organism's complexity has nothing to do with how big its DNA blueprint is.

The creation of NEW information. Repression of and/or expression of heritable traits does not make an animal or plant give birth to fresh kinds/families.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
How do you know there isn’t? If there is pressure outside the universe and a vacuum within, what maintains the vacuum?

Neither of us know, one of us will entertain both sides. One of us says, "I hate the Bible SO MUCH, that if even ONE of its precepts is coincident with science, I'll get ticked off!"
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Really? VERY VERY VERY VERY complex are the answer in each cases--BEYOND human design, BEYOND random design. That's the point.

Michael Behe was NOT a creationist when he wrote black box. He only moved toward Christianity when evangelicals embraced him, not just his work, unlike Catholic friends, when Black Box came out. I met the man, and helped host a dinner in his honor. One of "aha" moments was "the order of operations in one cell rivals that of the entire city of Chicago, all its creatures, infrastructure..."
Then how do you explain his unwillingness to admit that all of his claims he has made on irreducible complexity have been thoroughly refuted? He ignores the refutation to his works, that is just like a creationist. Make a ridiculous claim, when shown to be wrong pretend that it never happened.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Sorry are we speaking of a taxonomic tree or the tree of the Garden of good and evil or...?

There is no control experiment for "no God", it requires omniscience to prove this universal negative. There’s plenty of evidence for God, none against. Atheism is a willful, not an informed, decision IMHO.
Whichever tree it was you referred to in post 437. Looking back at this I see you were talking of any old tree, not a tree of life, so my fault for misunderstanding.

But the point remains, there is no need to replicate a phenomenon to formulate a sound scientific theory about it.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Then how do you explain his unwillingness to admit that all of his claims he has made on irreducible complexity have been thoroughly refuted? He ignores the refutation to his works, that is just like a creationist. Make a ridiculous claim, when shown to be wrong pretend that it never happened.

We see these stores about how someone was
a evo-darwinist atheist until he really looked into it
and then the scales fell form his eyes and he
saw the the Truth of The Lord.

BUT

As it is impossible to be a creationist who is
both well informed and intellectually honest.
I am not super impressed by the likes of Behe
going over to the dark side, converted by his
own phony data.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The tendency of all things in this universe toward entropy is not a fundamental axiom?!

No, it is not. it is derived from the other physical principles.

And, like I said, the second law *can* be violated in systems with a small number of particles. This has been observed.

The second law is a *statistical* law: it deals with how large numbers of objects are likely to act.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The creation of NEW information. Repression of and/or expression of heritable traits does not make an animal or plant give birth to fresh kinds/families.
What's this obsession with,"new information?" What, exactly, is new information, and why would evolution need it? I smell a creationist talking point...
D.o.g, --- G.o-d. Nothing new, just a rearrangement of 'letters'.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Neither of us know, one of us will entertain both sides. One of us says, "I hate the Bible SO MUCH, that if even ONE of its precepts is coincident with science, I'll get ticked off!"

That is simply being silly. Nobody thinks like that and you should know it.

What is happening instead is that people (creationists) attempt to distort science in any way they can to *force* it to be consistent with the Bible. Doing so frequently produces outlandish suggestions (like a water canopy around the universe) that no serious scientist would ever consider a reasonable hypothesis. The dislike is towards the horrible distortions of science done in the efforts to force Biblical literalness.

In point of fact, I see the Bible as one of many useful sources to understand what people believed in the past. It has some good historical information, some horribly wrong historical information, and a lot of propaganda for one small group of people. it really isn't any more worth of 'hate' than Livy's history of Rome.
 
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