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A simple case for intelligent design

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ah well, the ordering of amino acids is a different question, I grant you. That is not a matter of mere thermodynamics, of course, I quite agree. Nobody, so far as I know, claims thermodynamics on its own is enough to bring life to pass. There obviously has to be a whole set of circumstances of available chemistry and environment. My "stuff about energy" is relevant only to the point I am making, which is that thermodynamics does not provide any reason to rule out a natural origin for life.

He appears to be relying on the overly simplistic creationist version of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. That is the view that things tend to go to disorder. On a macro-scale that is often the way that it appears, but that also ignore that almost all multicellular life begins as a single cell and grows into a quite orderly organism. As you pointed out in an isolated system the entropy tends to increase. Please note that I did slightly change your claim. I too grew up when entropy referred to only "closed" and "open" systems. Today there are three versions, science continues to improve its nomenclature. An open system is one where both energy and matter enter and leave the system. A car engine is perfect example of this. There is matter entering and leaving and an energy transfer from the system. There are "closed systems" where matter does not enter and leave but energy can. For all practical purposes the Earth is a closed system. Matter enters and leaves only a small scale, and let's hope that remains the case for a long while, but energy is always entering and leaving. And then there is the "isolated system". That is the equivalent of the "closed system" of us old timers. Neither energy nor matter can enter or leave the system.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
He appears to be relying on the overly simplistic creationist version of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. That is the view that things tend to go to disorder. On a macro-scale that is often the way that it appears, but that also ignore that almost all multicellular life begins as a single cell and grows into a quite orderly organism. As you pointed out in an isolated system the entropy tends to increase. Please note that I did slightly change your claim. I too grew up when entropy referred to only "closed" and "open" systems. Today there are three versions, science continues to improve its nomenclature. An open system is one where both energy and matter enter and leave the system. A car engine is perfect example of this. There is matter entering and leaving and an energy transfer from the system. There are "closed systems" where matter does not enter and leave but energy can. For all practical purposes the Earth is a closed system. Matter enters and leaves only a small scale, and let's hope that remains the case for a long while, but energy is always entering and leaving. And then there is the "isolated system". That is the equivalent of the "closed system" of us old timers. Neither energy nor matter can enter or leave the system.

Ah that's interesting. The older I get the more careful I have to be with terminology changes since I learnt this stuff 40 odd years ago. For instance I gather we don't have carbonium ions any more but carbocations. But at least we learnt in metric units: I have to grateful for small mercies.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Well, this is why discussion with @leroy is particularly frustrating.....he doesn't seem to internalize anything anyone says to him.

Earlier in this thread, back on October 5 I pointed out to him that his arguing against self-ordering of amino acids was a straw man (CLICK HERE). Also, you'll see in that post me calling him out for arguing from ignorance.

Now here we are over a month later and what is leroy doing? Arguing against self-ordering of amino acids and arguing from ignorance.

The term "brick wall" comes to mind.
Hmm, I see. How tiresome.

But to be honest I engage in these dialogues with creationists fairly selectively and generally when there is a point of possible wider interest to other readers. Generally the creationist himself is too far gone to be retrieved. I don't think any of them understand the science. They have a few tracts and websites that feed them with pre-prepared arguments, which is why they often seem so predictable - and why they change the subject rather than engage in any detailed discussion of an issue. Once the pre-prepared stuff is exhausted, they're lost.

I'll keep a look out for leroy using the falsehood about thermodynamics again, then.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
But you don't have examples of random mutations creating self engineering systems


.

You keep repeating that lie dispite the fact that I provided examples of alternative mechanisms . Amazing​

.

Later ? How do you know it?

From a study generated by the Human Gene Mutation Database there are an estimated 1459 regulatory mutations have been identified in over 700 genes which are associated with human-inherited disorders. The inherited disorders are more carefully studies for obvious reasons and this does not include mutations that are not identified in human inherited disorders. Mutations in the Sonic hedgehog (Shh) limb bud enhancer are seen with point mutations identified in the zone of polarizing regulatory sequence and is seen in of various lines of polydactylous mice and cats, including the famed Hemingway's cat.

I will admit there is genetic drift which occurs in addition to natural selection creating variation but natural selection is still the driving force for change. But Darwin already recognized this. "Variations neither useful nor injurious would not be affected by natural selection, and would be left either a fluctuating element, as perhaps we see in certain polymorphic species, or would ultimately become fixed, owing to the nature of the organism and the nature of the conditions." (Darwin, 1859)

There is also biased gene conversion which causes changes in allele frequency in sexual populations (meiotic crossing-over events). There is also the Neutral theory of molecular evolution.

"This neutral theory claims that the overwhelming majority of evolutionary changes at the molecular level are not caused by selection acting on advantageous mutants, but by random fixation of selectively neutral or very nearly neutral mutants through the cumulative effect of sampling drift (due to finite population number) under continued input of new mutations" (Kimura, 1991)



Thus we have missense mutations, nonsence mutations, insertions, deletions, duplications, frameshifts, repeat expansions. Your article referenced that the genetic material can be cut, spliced or polymerized with the internal DNA. DNA can also be transported from one cell to the other. DNA is also acquired from the environment and even new sequences created or transcribing a section in reverse.



All are interesting and all are natural and all are consistent with our natural understanding of evolution. No intelligence beyond the creative force of nature itself. No intelligent designer manipulating every plants, animals and microbes DNA/RNA.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
It is funny because you are responding to a quote that is not about evolution
I am sorry but every time I see primordial soup it is usually either new evidence about how the genetic material would come about or it is another intelligent design fanatic trying desperately to find an argument against evolution when nothing else works. My mistake you were only interested in entropy.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ah that's interesting. The older I get the more careful I have to be with terminology changes since I learnt this stuff 40 odd years ago. For instance I gather we don't have carbonium ions any more but carbocations. But at least we learnt in metric units: I have to grateful for small mercies.

Since I debate with creationists quite often I have run into this before and I was a bit surprised when I saw that the terms had changed I could use Wikipedia, it of course makes that definition as do these sites:

https://www.brighthubengineering.com/thermodynamics/3733-what-is-a-thermodynamic-system/
A System and Its Surroundings
The laws of thermodynamics

Just three, but that does appear to be the current terminology and definitions.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
3) I never claimed 3rd or 2nd millennia BCE Hebrew scriptures. Moses would have lived about 14 centuries before Christ.
There are no Hebrew writing at that time. And not a single Bronze Age passage of the Torah or OT that might even hint that such belief (Moses’ religion) existing at that time.

The earliest literary evidences discovered, points to the Torah or Pentateuch, the 5 books “traditionally” attributed the authorship to Moses was written in the 1st millennium Iron Age to the time of King Josiah in Judah.

Fragments of the Silver Scrolls, found in the Ketef Hinnom cave that served as tomb, containing very small passage from Numbers 6, relating to the Priestly Blessings. This Sivler Scrolls have been dated between late 7th century BCE (so possibly as early as Josiah’s reign) or early 6th century BCE (before the fall of Jerusalem in 587 or 586 BCE).

No other OT passages found predated this fragment of the Silver Scrolls.

All other fragments found have all been dated later than the Silver Scrolls.

All this tell us, that no one wrote the Genesis and Exodus in the late Bronze Age, supposedly the time of Moses and Joshua.

If you are going anyone that Genesis and Exodus are truly as old as Christians, Jews and Muslims say about Moses, then you would have found such writings by now, whether written on walls, stones, clay tablets, papyri or parchments, by now.

Note that clay tablets were the most popular form of writings outside of Egypt, during the 2nd millennium BCE, like late Bronze Age clay tablets were found Babylonia and Assyria, in Levantine Syria (Mari and Ugarit) and Canaan (eg Megiddo), in the Hittite empire.

The Gezer Calendar and the inscriptions found on Zayit Stone are two oldest artifacts found containing early palaeo-Hebrew alphabets, but neither of these related to Genesis or Exodus.

At the site of Megiddo, some clay tablet fragments were found, some are written in Middle Babylonian, that traced back to the Epic of Gilgamesh and other Babylonian myths, just show popular and how far Gilgamesh myth have reached the west. And yet all these founds of fragments found at Megiddo, nothing contemporarily related to Moses or Joshua, or later in the times of the judges, or Saul and David.

The stories within Genesis may be and mostly set in the time of 3rd to mid-2nd millennium BCE, but Genesis was certainly not written or composed originally during these time.

Anyone can write stories of the distant past, but it doesn’t mean they are historical records or historically accurate. Genesis 10, regarding to Egypt, Uruk/Erech and Assur are examples that the authors to Genesis knew very little about archaeological origins of these kingdoms and cities.

4) There are literally thousands of proofs of the Bible in modern archaeology, so why are we not starting there? You've already said you feel the Flood story may be a metaphor, so why not start with concrete proofs of the Bible? What is your agenda here?

Agenda, BilliardsBall?

This is a debate forum. You are the one who claimed that there “...are literally thousands of proofs of the Bible in modern archaeology”, I have provided several examples (Genesis 10, regarding to Egypt and Nimrod With Erech/Uruk, and Exodus 1 with regarding to city called Ramesses) that showed that your argument is not true.

Isn’t that how debate works. Claims and counters.

I gave you several examples why Genesis 10 don’t provide historical or archaeological accuracy. You have yet to provide any example, where you show your “proof”.

If you bother to look up the history of Egypt, you would know that Egyptian cultures (eg Faiyum culture in Lower Egypt and Naqada culture in Upper Egypt) are dated earlier than the Bronze Age. Look up these cultures or look up Predynastic Egypt, and then you would understand how wrong Genesis 10 is regarding to Egypt/Mizraim.

The 4th millennium BCE, is known as the Chalcolithic period in Mesopotamia, Levantine and Egypt, where people discovered how to make copper tools, but still used stone tools for other tasks. And in Egypt the Chalcolithic period have different Egyptian cultures (known as proto-dynastic or predynastic period) that survived to the Bronze Age (eg 1st dynasty, started around 3050 BCE).

Likewise, in Uruk, Uruk flourished in the Chalcolithic period, throughout the 4th millennium BCE, and by mid-4th millennium BCE (3600-3400 bce), the earliest temples to the sky goddess Inanna, in the Enanna district of Uruk. The earliest cuneiform inscriptions were found in this area, predating the Sumerian civilization of the 3rd millennium BCE. Uruk around this time, was the largest city in the world, which is why archeologists called the period from 4000 to 3050 BCE - the “Uruk period”.

You can look them all yourself, about Uruk and Ur and Eridu, which all predated the Bronze Age Sumer civilization (3rd millennium BCE). Uruk is example of how wrong Genesis 10 is, claiming this city was built by Nimrod is.

Yes, I believed that the whole Genesis narrative to the creation and the Flood, and of course, the post-Flood, are allegory, not history. But my point is not about allegory vs literal of Genesis, but ABOUT YOUR CLAIMS OF PROOFS OF THE BIBLE TO ARCHAEOLOGY.

I am still waiting for your one example of that archaeological proof.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
We only see life coming from preexisting life.

But we know that at least the first living thing had to be an exception.

Why are you assuming with nearly 100% certainty that a natural mechanism (and not an intelligent designer) was responsible?

We have never seen such natural mechanism and we have never seen such designer, so why is naturalism superior to design?

All evidences point to natural mechanisms. Not a single one points to the Designer. You cannot even show that Designer himself or itself, exists.

All anyone have done, is conjectures that Designer exist, but conjecturing and assumptions and rationalizing are not evidences, leroy.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
All evidences point to natural mechanisms. Not a single one points to the Designer. You cannot even show that Designer himself or itself, exists.

All anyone have done, is conjectures that Designer exist, but conjecturing and assumptions and rationalizing are not evidences, leroy.
You and all the naturalists from the forum keep repeating that there is evidence for natural abiogenesis, but none of you have shown any.

It seems to me that naturalism is your default explanation, and that no evidence would convince you to the contrary.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
. Any mass has "many parts".
258px-Coal_anthracite.jpg
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You and all the naturalists from the forum keep repeating that there is evidence for natural abiogenesis, but none of you have shown any.

It seems to me that naturalism is your default explanation, and that no evidence would convince you to the contrary.

OK, you asked. These are just a few articles related to self-organization related to origins of life.

How life may have first emerged on Earth: Foldable proteins in a high-salt environment
Chemical evolution: Progenitors of the living world
Clay-armored bubbles may have formed first protocells: Minerals could have played a key role in the origins of life
Clay may have been birthplace of life on Earth, new study suggests
Was life inevitable? New paper pieces together metabolism's beginnings
Origin of life: Simulating how Earth kick-started metabolism
A protein that self-replicates

I can find many more if you are interested. Now, none solve the question of the origin of life. But they do show that the relevant chemicals are capable of quite a bit of self-organization.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
From a study generated by the Human Gene Mutation Database there are an estimated 1459 regulatory mutations have been identified in over 700 genes which are associated with human-inherited disorders. The inherited disorders are more carefully studies for obvious reasons and this does not include mutations that are not identified in human inherited disorders. Mutations in the Sonic hedgehog (Shh) limb bud enhancer are seen with point mutations identified in the zone of polarizing regulatory sequence and is seen in of various lines of polydactylous mice and cats, including the famed Hemingway's cat.

I will admit there is genetic drift which occurs in addition to natural selection creating variation but natural selection is still the driving force for change. But Darwin already recognized this. "Variations neither useful nor injurious would not be affected by natural selection, and would be left either a fluctuating element, as perhaps we see in certain polymorphic species, or would ultimately become fixed, owing to the nature of the organism and the nature of the conditions." (Darwin, 1859)

There is also biased gene conversion which causes changes in allele frequency in sexual populations (meiotic crossing-over events). There is also the Neutral theory of molecular evolution.

"This neutral theory claims that the overwhelming majority of evolutionary changes at the molecular level are not caused by selection acting on advantageous mutants, but by random fixation of selectively neutral or very nearly neutral mutants through the cumulative effect of sampling drift (due to finite population number) under continued input of new mutations" (Kimura, 1991)



Thus we have missense mutations, nonsence mutations, insertions, deletions, duplications, frameshifts, repeat expansions. Your article referenced that the genetic material can be cut, spliced or polymerized with the internal DNA. DNA can also be transported from one cell to the other. DNA is also acquired from the environment and even new sequences created or transcribing a section in reverse.



All are interesting and all are natural and all are consistent with our natural understanding of evolution. No intelligence beyond the creative force of nature itself. No intelligent designer manipulating every plants, animals and microbes DNA/RNA.
What study is that? Does the study show how natural genetic engineering evolved by random mutations?


Consider this statement:

“Complexity and diversity of life is mainly due to the mechanism of random mutations and natural selection”. Would you say that this statement is uncontrovertibly true?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
You and all the naturalists from the forum keep repeating that there is evidence for natural abiogenesis, but none of you have shown any.

It seems to me that naturalism is your default explanation, and that no evidence would convince you to the contrary.
The “God did it” or the “Designer designed it” are merely conjecturing and are assumptions based on ignorance and wishful thinking.

You brought up cars and pyramids, and yes, they were designed and constructed by intelligent entities, known as “man”, but man is neither invisible, nor inerrant.

In Egypt, you can see the earlier mastaba tombs were built for the rulers, before the appearance of the first pyramid, the Step Pyramid of Djoser (3rd dynasty), which are basically 5 successive mastabas built on top of each other (eg stacking the mastabas) with the smaller ones above the larger ones below. Eventually, by the 4th dynasty, the shape resembled more like true pyramid shape, Sneferu’s Red Pyramid at Dahuhur and Khufu’s great pyramid at Giza.

It is called technological and engineering progress. The Egyptians learned through trial and error, improving on previous knowledge of design and construction.

We know that Egyptians built these pyramids, because in some of these sites, there are evidences that villages of where the workers stayed and housed, match the dates of when respective pyramids were built. Those houses and items found in them, are examples that the builders of pyramids were humans, not gods, not spirits or demons, and not space aliens.

The same applied to Man making the earlier motor cars, improving on design and construction. Or the computer manufacturing. They all showed progress, but man came up with the ideas of cars and computers, and not some invisible Designer.

What people create may not be natural, but they are man-made. What these are, be they be pyramids, bridges, cars or computers, they may be man-made and not natural, they are however not supernatural like god or the Designer, which you thin created this world and the life within this world.

You have yet to show evidences for the Designer, which would be required to show life didn’t occur naturally.

In reality, I would always tried to understand how life naturally occurred, or how man can create, design or built something man-made, over the supernatural of creationism or of Intelligent Design.

Intelligent Design, like God, Creationism and resurrection of Christian religion, ID is based on unverifiable belief in the supernatural and blind faith.
 
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Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
What study is that? Does the study show how natural genetic engineering evolved by random mutations?


Consider this statement:

“Complexity and diversity of life is mainly due to the mechanism of random mutations and natural selection”. Would you say that this statement is uncontrovertibly true?
The HGMD is a database collective information of the research associated with the human genome and identified mutations.
Uncontrovertibly? Thankfully I can say science is free of such claims. That is in the realm of believers in a book written by man. Science only progresses when it is questioned. Random mutation play a role but so does environmental interactions and internal actions to the cells themselves. It is however a natural process and without a so called intelligent design. Individual cells and the genetic codes do not think. They react but do not think. Despite that look around at what evolution/nature can create. Live deserves respect.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The “God did it” or the “Designer designed it” are merely conjecturing and are assumptions based on ignorance and wishful thinking.

You brought up cars and pyramids, and yes, they were designed and constructed by intelligent entities, known as “man”, but man is neither invisible, nor inerrant.

In Egypt, you can see the earlier mastaba tombs were built for the rulers, before the appearance of the first pyramid, the Step Pyramid of Djoser (3rd dynasty), which are basically 5 successive mastabas built on top of each other (eg stacking the mastabas) with the smaller ones above the larger ones below. Eventually, by the 4th dynasty, the shape resembled more like true pyramid shape, Sneferu’s Red Pyramid at Dahuhur and Khufu’s great pyramid at Giza.

It is called technological and engineering progress. The Egyptians learned through trial and error, improving on previous knowledge of design and construction.

We know that Egyptians built these pyramids, because in some of these sites, there are evidences that villages of where the workers stayed and housed, match the dates of when respective pyramids were built. Those houses and items found in them, are examples that the builders of pyramids were humans, not gods, not spirits or demons, and not space aliens.

The same applied to Man making the earlier motor cars, improving on design and construction. Or the computer manufacturing. They all showed progress, but man came up with the ideas of cars and computers, and not some invisible Designer.

What people create may not be natural, but they are man-made. What these are, be they be pyramids, bridges, cars or computers, they may be man-made and not natural, they are however not supernatural like god or the Designer, which you thin created this world and the life within this world.

You have yet to show evidences for the Designer, which would be required to show life didn’t occur naturally.

In reality, I would always tried to understand how life naturally occurred, or how man can create, design or built something man-made, over the supernatural of creationism or of Intelligent Design.

Intelligent Design, like God, Creationism and resurrection of Christian religion, ID is based on unverifiable belief in the supernatural and blind faith.
Is there anything that would convince you that inteligent design is true? What atributes should life have in order for you to conclude that ID is true?


What if we find something that looks like a pyramid or a car in an other planet?

Would you conclude intelligent design? (Despite not having previous evidence for aliens)
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The HGMD is a database collective information of the research associated with the human genome and identified mutations.
Uncontrovertibly? Thankfully I can say science is free of such claims. That is in the realm of believers in a book written by man. Science only progresses when it is questioned. Random mutation play a role but so does environmental interactions and internal actions to the cells themselves. It is however a natural process and without a so called intelligent design. Individual cells and the genetic codes do not think. They react but do not think. Despite that look around at what evolution/nature can create. Live deserves respect.

You seen to be avoiding my questions.

Does your study show that the mechanism of natural genetic engineering evolved by random mutations? Which study is that ?

Is evolution by random mutations and natural selection the main cause of the complexity of life? Yes / No / Maybe,/ we don't know?

I am very bad in understanding texts so please try to provide direct and clear answers
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Is there anything that would convince you that inteligent design is true?
I have already made it very clear, REPEATEDLY, what is required for Intelligent Design to be “scientific”:

  1. ID needs to be “FALSIFIABLE”: which ID (particularly the Designer) is not.
  2. ID needs to have empirical and verifiable evidences to verify the concept of “Designer”: ID have none.
  3. ID needs to be reviewed by the peers from respective and specific scientific peers: it has never been reviewed.
That’s 3 strikes against Intelligent Design.

ID, the Discovery Institute and everyone who are members of ID (particularly Chapman, Gilder, Johnson, Meyer and Behe) are nothing more than phonies.
 
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