A social experiment with fundamentalist Christians

[Jose Fly]

On the fundamentalist Christian radio program, Wallbuilderslive, right-wing Christians refer to gay anti-bullying groups as "fascists" and claim that "homosexual activists" invented the problem of bullying to further their agenda:

Camenker: It often takes parents standing up to the homosexual activists and it’s hard to do, but you’re right. This is a very aggressive, fascist type of movement and these guys define the term ‘bullies.’

Green: I think you’re right and the perception I guess and maybe a lot of teachers, principals, superintendents out there have bought into this perception is that they are only the ones being bullied, the homosexual lobby is, so they’re hypersensitive to the other side of it.

 

[Kathryn]

So, Jose, you're saying then that I should be part of an organization like CAIR? If I'm not, then no matter how I live my life, no matter what missions and organizations I am involved in and support, it isn't enough?

Wow. I hate to say it, but that's a pretty judgmental position to take. As I've pointed out (and in fact downplayed, because I don't want to sound prideful), I do a lot within my local community to better the lives of others and to live my Christian faith as I believe it should be in order to be a positive example of Christianity.

In my daily life, I also interact with some very decent and intelligent Muslims. I doubt very seriously that they are involved with CAIR. If they are, they certainly aren't very open or vocal about it. But their moderate and responsible lives speak volumes. They do more for the cause of moderate Islam than a spokesperson for CAIR probably does - at least on a real life, local level.

I have a lot more respect for them than I do for a talking head on television.

 

[BeeBooga]

First of all, you are taking the actions of a group of so called Christians and using their actions to criticize Christianity. When in fact Christian teachings themselves criticize such behavior.

Secondly, many churchgoers are guilty of adopting the views of the pastorate, without doing any research of their own.

It's about you using your experience to criticize a few ill informed religious folk.

Well, unfortunately Jose is right. As a female, I too get treated how he described it.

In highschool, when I was attending I was treated rather badly. I went to an all christian school because of my town. It was the only school in a close enough radius. I was open with my views on God at the time, and it was OK for the first month or so. The girls treated me badly, but mostly left me alone, the guys just left me alone. One day a girl called me stupid, and ignorant. Now I was a little shocked that they would deduct this without knowing who I was, or anything but my religious views. I ignored it mostly until I started getting physically attacked. All of this for my religious views. I was shocked that people would get this extreme. I didn't fight back of course, because 3+ people vs 1 me isn't going to get me anywhere. I ignored them, the damage wasn't even that much, a push here, a shove there.
But then the guys joined in, it got harsher, I got angry, and I also got hurt. I don't really know how they even justifyed the actions of beating up a girl who won't defend herself. I asked why they hated me, and it was some kind of "Your views are stupid and wrong, mine are right, I wont accept you until you accept mine as the truth" ********. I reported it to my principle.
I mean, men beating up a girl because they don't have the same views. Really?
I am not lying when I tell you, this is exactly what they said to me: "You need a little more Jesus in your life."
Eventually I started skipping, my grades slipped even more. I dropped out because I was too afraid, I guess, to go back to that school and some of my family was sick so I had to take care of them for a prolonged amount of time. I home schooled from that point on.
I'm still not taken seriously in life when it comes to religious views, mainly because of my family and their views, and the way It's looked at in todays world sometimes.
I think the only person that treated me right back then was a coach, who got arrested for sexual harassment.
Now, there may be some people who really take the true meaning and morals and rules of their religion and apply them in life, but I have never seen it in real life, and rarely on the internet.

I attended the school for 3 years and was treated that way for all three. The point is, many of today's Christians either have the wrong view, were taught wrongly, or never learned the meaning of their religion and its morals.

And Jose, its good that you'll teach your daughters that

 

[Jose Fly]

So, Jose, you're saying then that I should be part of an organization like CAIR? If I'm not, then no matter how I live my life, no matter what missions and organizations I am involved in and support, it isn't enough?

You're forgetting the context of why we're even discussing this. After I started this thread and described my experiences and conclusions, you jumped in and argued that those people were just part of some crazy fringe and were atypical within even conservative Christianity.

I responded that yes, those people were not indicative of Christians as a whole, but were more representative of right-wing Christianity than you either realized or were willing to admit. I also stated I would be more inclined to view these folks as atypical of right-wing Christians if I saw conservative Christian organizations countering "those crazy fundamentalists".

You offered examples of conservative Christian organizations, but no examples of them actively opposing fundamentalist Christianity. Then our discussion morphed into a debate over how in the absence of a high-profile organized campaign by mainstream Christians to counter the fundies, the crazies are becoming more and more the public image of Christianity, which is a big reason why young people are flocking to the exit doors.

That led us to where we are now, i.e. you asking "What am I supposed to do about it". I've offered some examples of other religions countering the extremists in their ranks and advocates of other issues organizing to oppose right-wing Christians. Now you're asking me, "So unless I do that, I'm not doing enough?".

My answer is, that's not for me to decide. If you're satisfied, then for you, you are doing enough.

The other part of this is, as I'm showing and will continue to show, the sort of Christians I encountered in that forum are not atypical among right-wing Christians.

Wow. I hate to say it, but that's a pretty judgmental position to take. As I've pointed out (and in fact downplayed, because I don't want to sound prideful), I do a lot within my local community to better the lives of others and to live my Christian faith as I believe it should be in order to be a positive example of Christianity.

Except I didn't say what you're attributing to me. Whether or not what you do is enough is for you to decide, not me. Whether mainstream Christianity is doing enough will be for history to decide.

IMO, Christianity will continue to decline and the hateful, bigoted, backwards, and ignorant views and activities of right wing Christians will play a significant role in that process. The data supports my opinion.

 

[Jose Fly]

BeeBooga,

That's a really sad history. I guarantee you those kids were just reflecting what they'd been taught at home and at church (not necessarily "beat up anyone different", but an overall hateful attitude towards non-Christians).

 

[BeeBooga]

BeeBooga,

That's a really sad history. I guarantee you those kids were just reflecting what they'd been taught at home and at church (not necessarily "beat up anyone different", but an overall hateful attitude towards non-Christians).

Indeed. The town population was like 2k or less. They were a strange bunch =p, but it made me who I am of course.

 

[Jose Fly]

One of the main stories/conspiracy theories currently floating around within right-wing Christianity is that President Obama is secretly working with radical Islamists to overthrow middle eastern leaders and install radical Islamic governments. An article titled "The White House Connection to Qaddafi" is making its rounds in conservative Christian news outlets, discussion boards, and blogs.

The article ends with:

On July 9, 2009 at the G-8 summit FOX News published a picture of the president shaking hands with Qaddafi. The story said the "diplomatic gesture was his latest effort to reach out to controversial world leaders in an attempt to improve the United States' standing around the world." Now there are rumors in Libya that al Qaeda has a government in waiting for when Qaddafi is toppled. Interesting that in both Egypt and in Libya, more radical regimes wait in the wings and the American president is in the thick of these events. 2 John 7 says, "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." Our nation is in great peril.

Yep, you read that right...in right-wing Christian world, President Obama is conspiring with Al Qaeda in the middle east.

 

[Jose Fly]

Ok....last one for today.

Apparently, the Great Pyramid of Giza just might be part of end-times prophecy.

The Great Pyramid of Giza

by: Jack Kelley - gracethrufaith.com

There's too much crazy in that article to copy here. Click the link and see for yourself.

 

[Danmac]

Exactly! Willfull ignorance is rampant among these folks!

That is not all of us though.

 

[Danmac]

A fundamentalist Christian legislator in Georgia submitted an anti-abortion bill that is being described as "crazy".

The Craziest Anti-Choice Bill Yet

There are also unbelievers that oppose abortion.

 

[Danmac]

Well, unfortunately Jose is right. As a female, I too get treated how he described it.

In highschool, when I was attending I was treated rather badly. I went to an all christian school because of my town. It was the only school in a close enough radius. I was open with my views on God at the time, and it was OK for the first month or so. The girls treated me badly, but mostly left me alone, the guys just left me alone. One day a girl called me stupid, and ignorant. Now I was a little shocked that they would deduct this without knowing who I was, or anything but my religious views. I ignored it mostly until I started getting physically attacked. All of this for my religious views. I was shocked that people would get this extreme. I didn't fight back of course, because 3+ people vs 1 me isn't going to get me anywhere. I ignored them, the damage wasn't even that much, a push here, a shove there.
But then the guys joined in, it got harsher, I got angry, and I also got hurt. I don't really know how they even justifyed the actions of beating up a girl who won't defend herself. I asked why they hated me, and it was some kind of "Your views are stupid and wrong, mine are right, I wont accept you until you accept mine as the truth" ********. I reported it to my principle.
I mean, men beating up a girl because they don't have the same views. Really?
I am not lying when I tell you, this is exactly what they said to me: "You need a little more Jesus in your life."
Eventually I started skipping, my grades slipped even more. I dropped out because I was too afraid, I guess, to go back to that school and some of my family was sick so I had to take care of them for a prolonged amount of time. I home schooled from that point on.
I'm still not taken seriously in life when it comes to religious views, mainly because of my family and their views, and the way It's looked at in todays world sometimes.
I think the only person that treated me right back then was a coach, who got arrested for sexual harassment.
Now, there may be some people who really take the true meaning and morals and rules of their religion and apply them in life, but I have never seen it in real life, and rarely on the internet.

I attended the school for 3 years and was treated that way for all three. The point is, many of today's Christians either have the wrong view, were taught wrongly, or never learned the meaning of their religion and its morals.

And Jose, its good that you'll teach your daughters that

So the whole school picked on you because of your views. That sounds a lot like REF to me. It appears that unbelievers can be just as childish. And many of them are adults.

 

[Kathryn]

You're forgetting the context of why we're even discussing this. After I started this thread and described my experiences and conclusions, you jumped in and argued that those people were just part of some crazy fringe and were atypical within even conservative Christianity.

I responded that yes, those people were not indicative of Christians as a whole, but were more representative of right-wing Christianity than you either realized or were willing to admit.

Actually, I don't recall you bringing in "right wing" anything till later in the thread. I believe you were originally using the terms "fundamentalist" and "conservative" interchangeably, and that was the slant I was addressing.

I also stated I would be more inclined to view these folks as atypical of right-wing Christians if I saw conservative Christian organizations countering "those crazy fundamentalists".

See - there you go again - still at it. You are not realizing or admitting that there ARE differences between "right wing" (political stance, not a personal stance), and "conservatives," (could be either political or personal - and many personally conservative people are politically moderate, libertarian, or even left wing politically).

You offered examples of conservative Christian organizations, but no examples of them actively opposing fundamentalist Christianity.

Actually I did offer examples but you ignored them. I think though, that what you are looking for is examples of RIGHT WING Christian groups opposing RIGHT WING positions. You are continuing to insist on mixing all conservative Christians with right wing politics or crazy ultra right wing ridiculous politicians using religion for political gain.

You are insisting on lumping fundamentalist (religious position) with conservative (personal position) with right wing (political position) as if all three of them cano only exist simultaneously - and that's simply not true.

Maybe, just maybe, some conservative people aren't "fighting the international exposure" of radical fundamentalists by joining some group the equivalent of CAIR because they don't at all identify the radical fundamentalists as being their spokesperson whatsoever - because they simply aren't.

Then our discussion morphed into a debate over how in the absence of a high-profile organized campaign by mainstream Christians to counter the fundies, the crazies are becoming more and more the public image of Christianity, which is a big reason why young people are flocking to the exit doors.

There are lots of reasons, and fundamentalist crazies are just one of them - and not even the main reason in my opinion. Sure, they don't help, but if someone truly believes that Christianity is all about Jerry Falwell, then they haven't done much studying of the topic.

I will probably have more influence - REAL influence - on those around me and who I interact with on a daily basis than Jerry Falwell or his ilk. I don't have the hook up to start a television show showcasing my beliefs. All I can do is live as honorably as possible, support the best causes I know of, and volunteer my time and resources to make this world a better place.

That led us to where we are now, i.e. you asking "What am I supposed to do about it". I've offered some examples of other religions countering the extremists in their ranks and advocates of other issues organizing to oppose right-wing Christians. Now you're asking me, "So unless I do that, I'm not doing enough?".

Really, I think the only example you've given is CAIR. And CAIR is a pretty debatable group for that matter. But that's a whole other topic.

My answer is, that's not for me to decide. If you're satisfied, then for you, you are doing enough.

That's funny - I recall post after post in which you accused me personally of not caring, not doing enough, etc. But you've finally got it right - it's NOT for you to decide. I mean, you are entitled to your own opinion, but ultimately it doesn't matter to me at all, and makes absolutely no difference in my life or the lives of others I impact.

The other part of this is, as I'm showing and will continue to show, the sort of Christians I encountered in that forum are not atypical among right-wing Christians.

Another example of muddying terminology. Sure, you can find example after example after example of nutty Christians and even nuttier politicians. I could find example after example of nutty atheists and even nuttier left wing politicians. But I don't believe that would prove that all or even most atheists, even left wing atheists, are crazy. I also don't believe that extreme examples of nutty atheists or left wing crazies mean that atheists or left wingers are being taken over by lunatics. Sure - there are plenty mixed into the bag, but that's humanity for you.

Whether mainstream Christianity is doing enough will be for history to decide.

What are you talking about now - mainstream, right wing, fundamentalist, conservative, Christianity in general - what?

As confusing as your mixture of terms is, I will give credit where credit is due. History WILL show whether or not mainstream Christianity is "doing enough" - whatever that means. And history is always written by the victors.

IMO, Christianity will continue to decline and the hateful, bigoted, backwards, and ignorant views and activities of right wing Christians will play a significant role in that process. The data supports my opinion

Maybe, maybe not. But just remember - your data is cherry picked.

 

[Jose Fly]

Actually, I don't recall you bringing in "right wing" anything till later in the thread. I believe you were originally using the terms "fundamentalist" and "conservative" interchangeably, and that was the slant I was addressing.

See - there you go again - still at it. You are not realizing or admitting that there ARE differences between "right wing" (political stance, not a personal stance), and "conservatives," (could be either political or personal - and many personally conservative people are politically moderate, libertarian, or even left wing politically).

Please do me a favor then; define "fundamentalist Christian", "conservative Christian", "right wing Christian" and "mainstream Christian" in objective, useful terms so that I know who I'm dealing with in various situations.

Actually I did offer examples but you ignored them. I think though, that what you are looking for is examples of RIGHT WING Christian groups opposing RIGHT WING positions.

Where did you give specific examples of Christian organizations who have as part of their core mission the opposition of fundamentalist Christianity?

Maybe, just maybe, some conservative people aren't "fighting the international exposure" of radical fundamentalists by joining some group the equivalent of CAIR because they don't at all identify the radical fundamentalists as being their spokesperson whatsoever - because they simply aren't.

Hey, if that's what you guys are telling yourselves, that's fine by me.

There are lots of reasons, and fundamentalist crazies are just one of them - and not even the main reason in my opinion. Sure, they don't help, but if someone truly believes that Christianity is all about Jerry Falwell, then they haven't done much studying of the topic.

Again, the survey data shows that the primary reasons why young people are leaving Christianity are because they see the faith as bigoted, anti-science, backwards, and too political. Now you tell me, which segment of the Christian community do you think exhibits those traits?

Really, I think the only example you've given is CAIR. And CAIR is a pretty debatable group for that matter. But that's a whole other topic.

It's the most obvious equivalent organization.

That's funny - I recall post after post in which you accused me personally of not caring, not doing enough, etc. But you've finally got it right - it's NOT for you to decide. I mean, you are entitled to your own opinion, but ultimately it doesn't matter to me at all, and makes absolutely no difference in my life or the lives of others I impact.

I didn't "accuse" you of anything; I simply reflected back to you the impression I was getting from you. That you see that as an accusation is rather revealing.

Another example of muddying terminology. Sure, you can find example after example after example of nutty Christians and even nuttier politicians. I could find example after example of nutty atheists and even nuttier left wing politicians. But I don't believe that would prove that all or even most atheists, even left wing atheists, are crazy. I also don't believe that extreme examples of nutty atheists or left wing crazies mean that atheists or left wingers are being taken over by lunatics. Sure - there are plenty mixed into the bag, but that's humanity for you.

The difference is, I am showing that this nuttiness is fairly mainstream within conservative and fundamentalist Christianity. The organizations whose material I'm posting (Focus on the Family, American Family Association, etc.) are not obscure, fringe groups. They are multi-million dollar national organizations with millions of member and supporters. They are extremely politically influential (as is evident by my posts) and claim to be representing "Christian values".

What are you talking about now - mainstream, right wing, fundamentalist, conservative, Christianity in general - what?

I said "mainstream Christianity", so I'm not sure why you need to ask.

Maybe, maybe not. But just remember - your data is cherry picked.

That's your empty assertion. The polling and social data contradicts you.

 

[BeeBooga]

So the whole school picked on you because of your views. That sounds a lot like REF to me. It appears that unbelievers can be just as childish. And many of them are adults.

If you refer to the ones that also claim to be atheist at the same time as hating God, then yes, yes they are childish and ignorant. I wouldn't mark people picking on me and beating me up as childish, just very close-minded and judging.

 

[Jose Fly]

Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council claims on their radio program that the Obama administration's decision to not defend the DOMA is akin to middle east dictators.

 

[Jose Fly]

Matt Barber of the Liberty Council on the American Family Association's radio program blasts churches who allow Muslims to use their facilities as long as they "just please try not to behead us on your way out the door" and states that Islam is Satanic.

 

[Danmac]

If you refer to the ones that also claim to be atheist at the same time as hating God, then yes, yes they are childish and ignorant. I wouldn't mark people picking on me and beating me up as childish, just very close-minded and judging.

I think you can take a stroll thru these forums and see a lot of bullying done by atheists, so it is a two way street.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think you can take a stroll thru these forums and see a lot of bullying done by atheists, so it is a two way street.

It would pay to notice that bullying is done only by some of believers & atheists.
One ought not generalize about an entire group from the actions of the noticeable few.

 

[lunamoth]

One ought not generalize about an entire group from the actions of the noticeable few.

Exactly.

The System *curse you System!* will not allow me to frubal you.

 

[Danmac]

It would pay to notice that bullying is done only by some of believers & atheists.
One ought not generalize about an entire group from the actions of the noticeable few.

There are some genuinely considerate atheists on these forums. I never said there wasn't. That is what you read into my statement.