• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

A split thread: Joseph Smith

Sapiens

Polymathematician
The point is that it would be statistically next to impossible.
No, you are wrong. Sorry, but you are repeating claims that you simply do not understand. There are markers that would, at least, suggest Semitic origins, no such markers are found.

Even LDS researchers such as anthropologist Thomas Murphy and ex-Mormon geneticist Simon Southerton agree that given the genetic markers now available, it is reasonable to state that there are no indications of any detectable presence of ancestors from the ancient Middle East.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
It's not really a constructive addition to the debate, but I'd quite like to see a stained glass window of Jesus wearing 'tennis racket' snow shoes emerging from an igloo in Jackson County, Missouri.

Norman: Yes your comment is way off the OP, so why do you even say it?
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
No, you are wrong. Sorry, but you are repeating claims that you simply do not understand. There are markers that would, at least, suggest Semitic origins, no such markers are found.

Even LDS researchers such as anthropologist Thomas Murphy and ex-Mormon geneticist Simon Southerton agree that given the genetic markers now available, it is reasonable to state that there are no indications of any detectable presence of ancestors from the ancient Middle East.

Norman: Sapiens, Moroni 10: 2 And I seal‍ up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you. 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful‍ the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder‍ it in your hearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask‍ God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith‍ in Christ, he will manifest‍ the truth‍ of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know‍ the truth‍ of all things. 6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
Agreed.

And I highly doubt OP would even agree with the true history of Israelites origins after 1200 BC from displaced Canaanites, who were mixed with many different heritage's over thousands of years.

Their heritage was in a state of constant evolution, that could hardly be defined as their own unique heritage, less a very vague description of people in a constant state of change from a multi cultural background in wide geographic locations.

Norman: outhouse, There are a lot of modern day Korihor’s.

Alma: 30: 12 And this Anti-Christ, whose name was Korihor, (and the law could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people that there should be no‍ Christ. And after this manner did he preach, saying:

13 O ye that are bound down under a foolish‍ and a vain hope, why do ye yoke yourselves with such foolish things? Why do ye look for a Christ? For no man can know‍ of anything which is to come.

14 Behold, these things which ye call prophecies, which ye say are handed down by holy prophets, behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers.

15 How do ye know of their surety? Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see; therefore ye cannot know that there shall be a Christ.

16 Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a frenzied‍ mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.

17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared‍ in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever‍ a man did was no‍ crime.

18 And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men, to commit whoredoms—telling them that when a man was dead, that was the end thereof.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
I was actually regarding specifically the opposition to Mormonism. That time in general was fairly bleak. Though I would say the actual Civil war was probably the worst. Or in all actuality the civil war and the subsequent decade.

If my best friend came up and said that I was an awesome guy but people who knew me but weren't really friends with me said otherwise who would you believe? Especially if I had several convictions and avoiding arrests and was known for seeing things?

Norman: Helamen 13:29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Norman: No, outhouse, just you and your atheist friends out there.


Sorry, I have already posted credible links showing your pseudo history is not accepted by modern science.

To their best knowledge, it looks like literary creations.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
There are a lot of modern day Korihor’s.

Provide credible sources. Anything from your group, is probably not going to be historically or scientifically accepted as credible by the way.


Your apologetic sources mean nothing to those outside your faith. They are faith based.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
No they're not. Bison have never been technically considered to be cattle, and neither have buffalo. All cattle belong to the genus Bos, most commonly members of Bos taurus, whereas the two species of Bison are members of the Bison genus. Moreover, buffalo make up two other distinct genera, Syncerus (African, or Cape buffalo), and Bubalus with its various water buffalo species.

Cattle: genus Bos
Bison: genus Bison
Buffalo: genus Syncerus and Bubalus

What do you do, just make this stuff up on the run because . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ?

Norman:

1 Nephi 1:1 I, Nephi, having been born‍ of goodly parents, therefore I was taught‍ somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions‍ in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record‍ of my proceedings in my days.

2 Yea, I make a record in the language‍ of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.

4 For it came to pass in the commencement of the first‍ year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem‍ in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem‍ must be destroyed.

5 Wherefore it came to pass that my father, Lehi, as he went forth prayed unto the Lord, yea, even with all his heart, in behalf of his people.

6 And it came to pass as he prayed unto the Lord, there came a pillar‍ of fire and dwelt upon a rock before him; and he saw and heard much; and because of the things which he saw and heard he did quake‍ and tremble exceedingly.

7 And it came to pass that he returned to his own house at Jerusalem; and he cast himself upon his bed, being overcome‍ with the Spirit and the things which he had seen.

8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens‍ open, and he thought he saw‍ God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.

9 And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster‍ was above that of the sun at noon-day.

10 And he also saw twelve‍ others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament.

11 And they came down and went forth upon the face of the earth; and the first came and stood‍ before my father, and gave unto him a book, and bade him that he should read.

12 And it came to pass that as he read, he was filled with the Spirit‍ of the Lord.

13 And he read, saying: Wo, wo, unto Jerusalem, for I have seen thine abominations! Yea, and many things did my father read concerning Jerusalem—that it should be destroyed, and the inhabitants thereof; many should perish by the sword, and many should be carried away‍ captive into Babylon.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
Sorry, I have already posted credible links showing your pseudo history is not accepted by modern science.

To their best knowledge, it looks like literary creations.

Norman:

1 Nephi 3: 1 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, returned from speaking‍ with the Lord, to the tent of my father.

2 And it came to pass that he spake unto me, saying: Behold I have dreamed a dream, in the which the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brethren shall return‍ to Jerusalem.

3 For behold, Laban hath the record of the Jews and also a genealogy‍ of my forefathers, and they are engraven‍ upon plates of brass.

4 Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brothers should go unto the house of Laban, and seek the records, and bring them down hither into the wilderness.

5 And now, behold thy brothers murmur, saying it is a hard thing which I have required of them; but behold I have not required it of them, but it is a commandment of the Lord.

6 Therefore go, my son, and thou shalt be favored of the Lord, because thou hast not murmured.

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will‍ go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments‍ unto the children of men, save he shall prepare‍ a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

8 And it came to pass that when my father had heard these words he was exceedingly glad, for he knew that I had been blessed of the Lord.

9 And I, Nephi, and my brethren took our journey in the wilderness, with our tents, to go up to the land of Jerusalem.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
Then why debate.

Nothing we say, and no amount of evidence will change your mind.


Should you not stay in the safety of the "same faith" section here, since you flat refuse to debate???

Norman: I will keep debating with you outhouse since you have such an interest in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

1 Nephi 5: 10 And after they had given thanks unto the God of Israel, my father, Lehi, took the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, and he did search them from the beginning.

11 And he beheld that they did contain the five books‍ of Moses, which gave an account of the creation of the world, and also of Adam and Eve, who were our first parents;

12 And also a record‍ of the Jews from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah;

13 And also the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah; and also many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah.

14 And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass‍ a genealogy‍ of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph; yea, even that Joseph who was the son of Jacob, who was sold‍ into Egypt, and who was preserved‍ by the hand of the Lord, that he might preserve his father, Jacob, and all his household from perishing with famine.

15 And they were also led‍ out of captivity and out of the land of Egypt, by that same God who had preserved them.

16 And thus my father, Lehi, did discover the genealogy of his fathers. And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
All faith based claims.



Only to you. The rest of the world and all academics, find a different opinion.

Norman: The appearance of God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ to the Prophet Joseph Smith in a grove of trees. In the spring of 1820, Joseph Smith, Jr., was in his fifteenth year. He lived with his family in the township of Palmyra, New York. A short distance west of the family home was a grove of large trees. Joseph went to this spot to pray to God to learn which church was right. He had been impressed while reading the Bible that he must seek that answer from God (James 1:5–6). In answer to his prayer, the Father and the Son appeared to him and told him to join none of the churches then on the earth, for they were all wrong (JS—H 1:15–20). This sacred experience began a series of events that would bring about the restoration of the gospel and Christ’s true Church.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
I believe you are referring to his 1830 arrest, when Constable Ebenezer Hatch arrested Smith on June 30, held him over night, and brought him before Justice Joseph P. Chamberlin on a charge of being a disorderly person. Smith was transported to South Bainbridge, New York. His two-day trial took place in late June, ending on July 1, 1830, and he was defended by two attorneys hired by Joseph Knight. Smith was acquitted. Immediately after his release, however, he was arrested again and transported back to Colesville for a second trial; he was acquitted again.

I am referring to his previous arrests and conviction, the one in March of 1826. You guys can't even keep his multiple arrests straight. If you've got that wrong why would I not place more belief in sources that get that right when it comes to other disparate information? I also find it telling how you fail to comment on my conversation with the Bishop, how you assume that I got all this from anti-Mormon literature (as I pointed out it was mainly bio-geography that made me start looking at your beliefs critically), and how practiced you seem to be with fielding these sorts of questions with nuanced answers.

The 1826 trial has not, as far as I can detect been "proven false." As far as I can tell virtually all the non-LDS sources are quite clear about it, as they are about the questions of chariots, ungulates and papyri. It is only the LDS apologists that seem to have to contort reality to make it all "come out right." Combine that with what the Bishop related to me and I'd say you have a long uphill climb to come clean. But you likely don't even know that because you've heard the lies so often that you believe them. Really ... horses, cattle, goats, pigs, etc., in post-Pleistocene North America.

Norman: Here is some food for thought Sapiens.

Jewish and Other Semitic Texts Written in Egyptian Characters
John A. Tvedtnes and Stephen D. Ricks

The Book of Mormon indicates that it was written using Egyptian characters, called by Moroni "reformed Egyptian," though the Nephites also knew Hebrew (see Mormon 9:32-34). Nephi made "a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians" ( I Nephi 1:2). Evidently, the brass plates of Laban also contained Egyptian characters, for King Benjamin informed his sons that, without a knowledge of Egyptian, Lehi would not have been able to read them (Mosiah 1:3--4). Non-Latter-day Saint scholars and others have long scoffed at the idea that an Israelite group from Jerusalem should have written in Egyptian and mocked the term "reformed Egyptian" as nonsense. Since Joseph Smith's time, we have learned a great deal about Egyptian and Israelite records and realize that the Book of Mormon was correct in all respects. The ancient Egyptians used three types of writing systems. The most well known, the hieroglyphs (Greek for "sacred symbols"), comprised nearly 400 picture characters depicting things found in real life. A cursive script called hieratic (Greek for "sacred") was also used, principally on papyrus. Around 700 B.C., the Egyptians developed an even more cursive script that we call demoric (Greek for "popular"), which bore little resemblance to the hieroglyphs.5 Both hieratic and demotic were in use in Lehi's time and can properly be termed "reformed Egyptian." From the account in Mormon 9:32, it seems likely that the Nephites further reformed the characters. While it is clear that the Book of Mormon was written in Egyptian characters, scholars are divided on whether the underlying language was Egyptian or Hebrew. Recent discoveries have provided evidence that at least some ancient Israelite scribes were, like the Nephite scribes, acquainted with both languages. A number of northwest Semitic texts are included in Egyptian magical papyri. These are mostly incantations that, instead of being translated, were merely transcribed in Egyptian hieratic .6 The underlying language is a Northwest Semitic tongue, an early form of Hebrew/Canaanite'? The texts include the London Magical Papyrus (fourteenth century B.C.),8 the Harris Magical Papyrus (thirteenth century B.C.),9 Papyrus Anastasi I (thirteenth century B.C.), \0 and Ostracon 25759 recto. I I The latter dates to the early eleventh century B.C., the time of Israel's judges. While a Semitic text appears on one side, the verso has a text that is pure Egyptian, though whether there is a connection between the two is unknown. In any event, it is clear that some Egyptian scribes were sufficiently versed in the Northwest Semitic tongue that they were able 10 transliterate it using their own writing system. Closer to Lehi's time are Israelite documents from the ninth to sixth centuries B.C., from which we learn that the Israelites adopted the Egyptian hieratic numerals and mingled them with Hebrew text. I 2 More important, however, are Hebrew and Aramaic texts- languages used by the Jews of Lehi's time-that are written in Egyptian characters. One of these is Papyrus Amherst 63, a document written in Egyptian demotic and dating to the second century B.C,13 The document had. like the Dead Sea Scrolls, been preserved in an earthen jar and was discovered in Thebes, Egypt, during the second half of the nineteenth century. For years, Egyptologists strugg led with the text but could make no sense of it. The letters were clear, but they did not form in telligible words.In 1944, Raymond Bowman of the University of Chicago realized that, while the script is Egyptian, the underly ing language is Aramaic, l4 Bowman managed to trans late portions of the lext, but it did not become the object of serious study until the 1980s. Among the writings included in the religious text is a paganized version of Psalms 20:2--6. Here, then, we have a Bible passage, in its Aramaic translation, written in late Egyptian characters. In 1965, during excavations at the southern Judean site of Arad, a number of ostraca were found. Most of the documents were written in Hebrew and dated to ca. 598-587 B.C.16 One, however, dating "to the seventh century B.C.," was written in Egyptian hieratic. 17 Here, then, was evidence that Egyptian writing was known in an Israelite city. This was not surprising, for Egyptian documents from an earlier time had been discovered at the Phoenician (Lebanese) city of Byblos. More significant, however, was an ostracon uncovered at Arad in 1967.18 Dating "toward the end of the seventh century B.C.," it reflects usage from shortly before 600 B.C., the time of Lehi. The text on the ostracon is written in a combination of Egyptian hieratic and Hebrew characters, but can be read entirely as Egyptian. Of the seventeen words in the text, ten are written in hieratic and seven in Hebrew. However, all the words written in Hebrew can be read as Egyptian words, while one of them, which occurs twice, has the same meaning in both Egyptian and ebrew.19 Of the ten words written in hieratic script, four are numerals (one occurring in each line).20 One symbol, denoting a measure of capacity, occurs four times (once in each of the four lines), and the remaining Egyptian word occurs twice.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
Norman: Here is some food for thought Sapiens.

Jewish and Other Semitic Texts Written in Egyptian Characters
John A. Tvedtnes and Stephen D. Ricks

The Book of Mormon indicates that it was written using Egyptian characters, called by Moroni "reformed Egyptian," though the Nephites also knew Hebrew (see Mormon 9:32-34). Nephi made "a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians" ( I Nephi 1:2). Evidently, the brass plates of Laban also contained Egyptian characters, for King Benjamin informed his sons that, without a knowledge of Egyptian, Lehi would not have been able to read them (Mosiah 1:3--4). Non-Latter-day Saint scholars and others have long scoffed at the idea that an Israelite group from Jerusalem should have written in Egyptian and mocked the term "reformed Egyptian" as nonsense. Since Joseph Smith's time, we have learned a great deal about Egyptian and Israelite records and realize that the Book of Mormon was correct in all respects. The ancient Egyptians used three types of writing systems. The most well known, the hieroglyphs (Greek for "sacred symbols"), comprised nearly 400 picture characters depicting things found in real life. A cursive script called hieratic (Greek for "sacred") was also used, principally on papyrus. Around 700 B.C., the Egyptians developed an even more cursive script that we call demoric (Greek for "popular"), which bore little resemblance to the hieroglyphs.5 Both hieratic and demotic were in use in Lehi's time and can properly be termed "reformed Egyptian." From the account in Mormon 9:32, it seems likely that the Nephites further reformed the characters. While it is clear that the Book of Mormon was written in Egyptian characters, scholars are divided on whether the underlying language was Egyptian or Hebrew. Recent discoveries have provided evidence that at least some ancient Israelite scribes were, like the Nephite scribes, acquainted with both languages. A number of northwest Semitic texts are included in Egyptian magical papyri. These are mostly incantations that, instead of being translated, were merely transcribed in Egyptian hieratic .6 The underlying language is a Northwest Semitic tongue, an early form of Hebrew/Canaanite'? The texts include the London Magical Papyrus (fourteenth century B.C.),8 the Harris Magical Papyrus (thirteenth century B.C.),9 Papyrus Anastasi I (thirteenth century B.C.), \0 and Ostracon 25759 recto. I I The latter dates to the early eleventh century B.C., the time of Israel's judges. While a Semitic text appears on one side, the verso has a text that is pure Egyptian, though whether there is a connection between the two is unknown. In any event, it is clear that some Egyptian scribes were sufficiently versed in the Northwest Semitic tongue that they were able 10 transliterate it using their own writing system. Closer to Lehi's time are Israelite documents from the ninth to sixth centuries B.C., from which we learn that the Israelites adopted the Egyptian hieratic numerals and mingled them with Hebrew text. I 2 More important, however, are Hebrew and Aramaic texts- languages used by the Jews of Lehi's time-that are written in Egyptian characters. One of these is Papyrus Amherst 63, a document written in Egyptian demotic and dating to the second century B.C,13 The document had. like the Dead Sea Scrolls, been preserved in an earthen jar and was discovered in Thebes, Egypt, during the second half of the nineteenth century. For years, Egyptologists strugg led with the text but could make no sense of it. The letters were clear, but they did not form in telligible words.In 1944, Raymond Bowman of the University of Chicago realized that, while the script is Egyptian, the underly ing language is Aramaic, l4 Bowman managed to trans late portions of the lext, but it did not become the object of serious study until the 1980s. Among the writings included in the religious text is a paganized version of Psalms 20:2--6. Here, then, we have a Bible passage, in its Aramaic translation, written in late Egyptian characters. In 1965, during excavations at the southern Judean site of Arad, a number of ostraca were found. Most of the documents were written in Hebrew and dated to ca. 598-587 B.C.16 One, however, dating "to the seventh century B.C.," was written in Egyptian hieratic. 17 Here, then, was evidence that Egyptian writing was known in an Israelite city. This was not surprising, for Egyptian documents from an earlier time had been discovered at the Phoenician (Lebanese) city of Byblos. More significant, however, was an ostracon uncovered at Arad in 1967.18 Dating "toward the end of the seventh century B.C.," it reflects usage from shortly before 600 B.C., the time of Lehi. The text on the ostracon is written in a combination of Egyptian hieratic and Hebrew characters, but can be read entirely as Egyptian. Of the seventeen words in the text, ten are written in hieratic and seven in Hebrew. However, all the words written in Hebrew can be read as Egyptian words, while one of them, which occurs twice, has the same meaning in both Egyptian and ebrew.19 Of the ten words written in hieratic script, four are numerals (one occurring in each line).20 One symbol, denoting a measure of capacity, occurs four times (once in each of the four lines), and the remaining Egyptian word occurs twice.

Thus, while seventeen words appear on the oSlracon, if one discounts the recurrence of words, only SIX words are written in hieratic (of which four are numerals), and six in Hebrew. The text of the ostracon is integral, rather than a bilinguaL2! Yeivin, who translated and studied the text, wrote, "The two scripts provide supplementary infonnation and they are intermingled. One cannot, however, be sure how the scribe who wrote the text read it, whether in Hebrew throughout, pronouncing all the apparent hieratic signs in their Hebrew equivalents, or in a mixed sort of jargon, giving the Egyptian values to the hieratic signs."22 Because the scription was discovered in Israel, Yeivin never considered the possibility that all the words might have been read as Egyptian, which seems more likely in this case. One thing, however, is certain. The scribe who wrote the text knew both Hebrew and Egyptian writing systems and commingled them in a single text. Perhaps this is what Nephi meant when he said that the language of his record consisted of "the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians" (1 Nephi 1:2).23 Additional evidence for the commingling of Hebrew and Egyptian scripts was discovered during archaeological excavations at Tell Ein-Qudeirah (biblical Kadesh-Barnea) in the Sinai Peninsula during the latter half of the 19705. Several ostraca of the sixth and seventh centuries B.C. were uncovered. One ostracon, written mostly in hieratic characters. consists of a column of Egyptian measures and five columns of numbers. Along with the Egyptian, the Hebrew word >iiliiphlm ("thousands") appears twice (with the hieratic "ten" in the numeral "10,000"), while the Hebrew symbol for "shekel" (a weight measure) appears twenty-two times. Because of the order of the numerals in each column, it may be a scribal practice in writing numbers. A second ostracon contains three vertical columns of numbers. The left-hand column has the Hebrew word garah, the smallest unit of Hebrew measure, after each hieratic numeral. Because the numerals are in order, Rudolph Cohen, the archaeologist who discovered the tex.ts, concluded that "this writing is a scribal exercise." This view is supported by the discovery, at the same site, of a small ostracon with several Hebrew [etters, in alphabetic order, evidently a practice text.24 At both Arad and Kadesh-Barnea, there were, in addition to the "combination texts" discussed, other ostraca written entirely in either Hebrew or Egyptian hieratic. The implication is clear: Scribes or students contemporary or nearly contemporary with Lehi were being trained in both Hebrew and Egyptian writing systems. The use of Egyptian script by Lehi's descendants now becomes not only plausible, but perfectly reasonable in the light of archaeological discoveries made more than a century after Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.

Source:

Title: Notes and Communications: Jewish and Other Semitic.
Texts Written in Egyptian Characters.
Author(s): John A. Tvedtnes and Stephen D. Ricks.
Reference: Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 5/2 (1996): 156–63.
ISSN: 1065-9366 (print), 2168-3158 (online)
Abstract: An Egyptian script was possibly used to write Hebrew text on the Nephite record. Documents from the correct location and time period have texts and languages in varying scripts that lend credence to this scribal phenomenon.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
Pretty good thread. There is an answer for almost every hole. Granted its patching a hole with another hole but still. Hillarious.

But actually on topic why do you think he was persecuted to harsly even before he became the "prophet" for Mormonism? Is it not more likely he was actually guilty?

Norman: Guilty of What? Guilty of practicing “Freedom of Religion,” Guilty of exercising his civil rights? Guilty of being denied “Due Process of Law?” Guilty of “corrupt and evil men bearing False witness against Joseph Smith?” Guilty of “The kangaroo trials he had to face?” Joseph was Very Tenable and God said his name would be had for both good and evil.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
It also said that he came from a family of people who saw visions of god and in today's world would have been admitted into the psch ward as a schizophrenic. Also let me lead into this with a question to you. When did he really start getting several visions? Not at the age of 14 but what age approximately did he start to have enough visions to become a prophet? Was it his late teens or early 20's?

Norman: Only a first vision was enough for Joseph to become a prophet but many more followed. In the spring of 1820, Joseph Smith, Jr., was 14 years old. He lived with his family in the township of Palmyra, New York. A short distance west of the family home was a grove of large trees. Joseph went to this spot to pray to God to learn which church was right. He had been impressed while reading the Bible that he must seek that answer from God (James 1:5–6). In answer to his prayer, the Father and the Son appeared to him and told him to join none of the churches then on the earth, for they were all wrong (JS—H 1:15–20). This sacred experience began a series of events that would bring about the restoration of the gospel and Christ’s true Church. To find out more
information to the answer to your question you can visit
www.lds.org and www.mormon.org and www.josephsmith.net

Hitler also won Time Magazine's man of the year award. So... yeah I don't think that any single individual can claim that another man was righteous. I have no doubt that he possibly had good intentions but it wouldn't' make him any more right. By this logic should we all convert to Hinduism because of Gandhi?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
15 And they were also led‍ out of captivity and out of the land of Egypt, by that same God who had preserved them.

What happens when people plagiarize others work is, they plagiarize the mistakes and mythology as well.

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Biblical minimalists such as Philip Davies and Niels Peter Lemche regard the Exodus as a fiction


Egypt was at the peak of its glory, with a series of fortresses guarding the borders and checkpoints watching the roads to Canaan. That means an exodus of the scale of over 600,000 soldiers described in the Torah would have been impossible

While the general narrative of the Exodus and the conquest of the Promised Land may be remotely rooted in historical events, the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated


the Canaanite origin of the Israelites
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
No, you are wrong. Sorry, but you are repeating claims that you simply do not understand. There are markers that would, at least, suggest Semitic origins, no such markers are found.

Even LDS researchers such as anthropologist Thomas Murphy and ex-Mormon geneticist Simon Southerton agree that given the genetic markers now available, it is reasonable to state that there are no indications of any detectable presence of ancestors from the ancient Middle East.
Good grief, man. Don't you ever give up? You are absolutely right in saying that "given the genetic markers now available, it is reasonable to state that there are no indications of any detectable presence of ancestors from the ancient Middle East." You are absolutely wrong in expecting there to be. And I am absolutely done with this conversation. I believe I said that once before. This time I mean it. You and Norman have yourselves a good time.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Norman: Helamen 13:29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?
So far so good. Seems like he (if he exists or maybe she or both) will suffer me and my kind for as long as we want. Did so with the overwhelming vast majority of people for the whole time our species existed prior to Mormonism.

Norman: Guilty of What? Guilty of practicing “Freedom of Religion,” Guilty of exercising his civil rights? Guilty of being denied “Due Process of Law?” Guilty of “corrupt and evil men bearing False witness against Joseph Smith?” Guilty of “The kangaroo trials he had to face?” Joseph was Very Tenable and God said his name would be had for both good and evil.

Guilty of disorderly conduct, evading arrest, treason, conspiracy to commit murder, polygamy, fornication, perjury, inciting mobs and banking fraud.
 
Top