A split thread: Joseph Smith

[Norman]

That is a boldfaced lie on your part ... the evidence has been shown to you. Comparing yourselves to the death of millions of Jews goes way past good taste.

Norman: Hi Sapiens, just a tid-bit.

The White God Quetzalcoatl

By Joseph Allen.... taken from his book "Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon"

And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them.... (3 Nephi 11:8)

INTRODUCTION

Virtually all 16th‑Century writers wrote about a white god called Quetzalcoatl (KATES‑ALL‑CO‑OUGHT‑ALL). This tradition is strong and repetitive. Every school child in Mexico studies Quetzalcoatl and knows the importance of his role.

The symbol of the serpent has long been associated with deities of Mexico and Guatemala. In the Aztec language, the word "coatl" means serpent. By placing the Aztec word "quetzal" in front of the word "coatl" we have the word, "Quetzalcoatl". The word "quetzal" means feathers. A beautiful bird, native to Guatemala, carries the name quetzal. Quetzalcoatl, therefore, means, "feathered serpent," or serpent with precious feathers. (See our web site for illustration} The word quetzal is the name of the coin in Guatemala and also is the national symbol of the country.

Throughout pre-Columbian Mexican history, scores of individuals, both mythological and real, were given the name or title of Quetzalcoatl. Attempts also have been made to attribute the name Quetzalcoatl to only one person. The following quotations are indicative of what is said about Quetzalcoatl.

~ In all of America's past no figure is more exciting, more tantalizing, or more frustrating than that of the Fair God Quetzalcoatl; (Irwin 1963:33)

Quetzalcoatl was a man of comely appearance and serious disposition. His countenance was white, and he wore a beard. His manner of dress consisted of a long, flowing robe. (Ixtlilxochitl: 45)

Just as our era began with Christ, so that of the Aztecs and their predecessors began‑approximately at the same time‑with Quetzalcoatl. His image, the plumed serpent, had for pre‑Columbian people the same evocative force as has the Crucifix for Christianity. (Sejourne 1957:25)

The story of the life of the Mexican divinity, Quetzalcoatl closely resembles that of the Savior‑, so closely indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being. (Taylor 201)

We should, however, exercise caution as we correlate Jesus Christ and Quetzalcoatl as identical personages because of the fact that a 10th‑Century culture hero called Ce Acatl Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl took upon himself the title of the deity Quetzalcoatl. (As well as many others) Nevertheless, the deity Quetzalcoatl apparently had its origin in the visit of Jesus Christ to the American continent. (See Allen 1970.)

Similarities of Christ and Quetzalcoatl include the following:

1. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were recognized as creator of all things. (Mosiah 4:2; Saenz 1962:19, 40)

2. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were born of virgins. (Alma 7: 10; Gamiz 95)

3. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl are described as being white or as wearing a white robe. (3 Nephi 11:8; Torquemada 47)

4. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl performed miracles. (3 Nephi 26:15; Sejourne 136‑137)

5. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl taught the ordinance of baptism. (3 Nephi 11:23; Irwin 1963:170)

6. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl prophesied of future events. (Ixtlilxochitl: 40)

7. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were universal as opposed to just being recognized as local gods. (3 Nephi 16: 1; Sejourne 1962)

8. A great destruction was associated with both Christ and Quetzalcoatl at exactly the same time period in history. (3 Nephi 8:5; Ixtlilxochitl: 40)

9. The cross was a symbol to both Christ and Quetzalcoatl. (3 Nephi 27:14; Irwin 1963:165)

10. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl sent out disciples to preach their word. (3 Nephi 12:1; Wirth 1978:55)

11. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl promised they would come a second time. (2 Nephi 6:14; Sahagun 1:40)

12. A new star is associated with both Christ and Quetzalcoatl. (3 Nephi 1:21; Anales de Cuauhtitlan 7)

13. The children of both Christ and Quetzalcoatl will become lords and heirs of the earth. (4 Nephi 1: 17; Ixtlilxochitl: 40)

Copyright © 1999-2002 Ancient America Foundation. This message may be forwarded with identifying information.

 

[Sapiens]

Norman: Sapiens, Moroni 10: 2 And I seal‍ up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you. 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful‍ the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder‍ it in your hearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask‍ God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith‍ in Christ, he will manifest‍ the truth‍ of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know‍ the truth‍ of all things. 6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

Do not quote "scripture" at me, I do not read it. Where are the fossils, where are the bones, were is the DNA analysis, where is the evidence?

 

[Sapiens]

Norman: Hi Sapiens, just a tid-bit.

I don't want tid bits, where's the beef? Where are the fossils, where are the bones, were is the DNA analysis, where is the evidence?

The White God Quetzalcoatl

By Joseph Allen.... taken from his book "Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon"

And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them.... (3 Nephi 11:8)

INTRODUCTION

Virtually all 16th‑Century writers wrote about a white god called Quetzalcoatl (KATES‑ALL‑CO‑OUGHT‑ALL). This tradition is strong and repetitive. Every school child in Mexico studies Quetzalcoatl and knows the importance of his role.

The symbol of the serpent has long been associated with deities of Mexico and Guatemala. In the Aztec language, the word "coatl" means serpent. By placing the Aztec word "quetzal" in front of the word "coatl" we have the word, "Quetzalcoatl". The word "quetzal" means feathers. A beautiful bird, native to Guatemala, carries the name quetzal. Quetzalcoatl, therefore, means, "feathered serpent," or serpent with precious feathers. (See our web site for illustration} The word quetzal is the name of the coin in Guatemala and also is the national symbol of the country.

Throughout pre-Columbian Mexican history, scores of individuals, both mythological and real, were given the name or title of Quetzalcoatl. Attempts also have been made to attribute the name Quetzalcoatl to only one person. The following quotations are indicative of what is said about Quetzalcoatl.

~ In all of America's past no figure is more exciting, more tantalizing, or more frustrating than that of the Fair God Quetzalcoatl; (Irwin 1963:33)

Quetzalcoatl was a man of comely appearance and serious disposition. His countenance was white, and he wore a beard. His manner of dress consisted of a long, flowing robe. (Ixtlilxochitl: 45)

Just as our era began with Christ, so that of the Aztecs and their predecessors began‑approximately at the same time‑with Quetzalcoatl. His image, the plumed serpent, had for pre‑Columbian people the same evocative force as has the Crucifix for Christianity. (Sejourne 1957:25)

The story of the life of the Mexican divinity, Quetzalcoatl closely resembles that of the Savior‑, so closely indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being. (Taylor 201)

We should, however, exercise caution as we correlate Jesus Christ and Quetzalcoatl as identical personages because of the fact that a 10th‑Century culture hero called Ce Acatl Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl took upon himself the title of the deity Quetzalcoatl. (As well as many others) Nevertheless, the deity Quetzalcoatl apparently had its origin in the visit of Jesus Christ to the American continent. (See Allen 1970.)

Similarities of Christ and Quetzalcoatl include the following:

1. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were recognized as creator of all things. (Mosiah 4:2; Saenz 1962:19, 40)

2. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were born of virgins. (Alma 7: 10; Gamiz 95)

3. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl are described as being white or as wearing a white robe. (3 Nephi 11:8; Torquemada 47)

4. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl performed miracles. (3 Nephi 26:15; Sejourne 136‑137)

5. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl taught the ordinance of baptism. (3 Nephi 11:23; Irwin 1963:170)

6. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl prophesied of future events. (Ixtlilxochitl: 40)

7. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were universal as opposed to just being recognized as local gods. (3 Nephi 16: 1; Sejourne 1962)

8. A great destruction was associated with both Christ and Quetzalcoatl at exactly the same time period in history. (3 Nephi 8:5; Ixtlilxochitl: 40)

9. The cross was a symbol to both Christ and Quetzalcoatl. (3 Nephi 27:14; Irwin 1963:165)

10. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl sent out disciples to preach their word. (3 Nephi 12:1; Wirth 1978:55)

11. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl promised they would come a second time. (2 Nephi 6:14; Sahagun 1:40)

12. A new star is associated with both Christ and Quetzalcoatl. (3 Nephi 1:21; Anales de Cuauhtitlan 7)

13. The children of both Christ and Quetzalcoatl will become lords and heirs of the earth. (4 Nephi 1: 17; Ixtlilxochitl: 40)

Copyright © 1999-2002 Ancient America Foundation. This message may be forwarded with identifying information.

All that we know about Quetzalcoatl has been altered by the western frame that the information was forced through.

Does this look like you idea of Jesus?

Of course, the idea that a Jesus Christ-like figure who visited and ministered among the Aztecs is great for the Mormons who try to use it to prove the Book of Mormon. We also must point out that the Mormon texts do not mention the Aztecs and does not take place in Mexico or Central America, but in North America with no Archaeological evidence. Of course in comparing the Quetzalcoatl with Jesus we find precious little to match. For example Quetzalcoatl is white. Jesus is not white. He is Jewish. Quetzalcoatl was going to come back and rule over the Aztecs. Jesus will rule over the whole earth. Critics also push the similarity that both Quetzalcoatl and Jesus were tempted. However Quetzalcoatl gave in to temptation committing incest and becoming drunk but Jesus never gave in. They are in no way comparable. And one cannot even say such false claims substantiate the Book of Mormon either. (thanks to: What had happen' was....) but that's neither here nor there, nice try at changing the subject, but go start your own thread and in the meantime please tell us: Where are the fossils, where are the bones, were is the DNA analysis, where is the evidence?

 

[Sapiens]

The point is that it would be statistically next to impossible.

No, it would be absolute proof, read up on type one and type two errors.

 

[Sapiens]

Good grief, man. Don't you ever give up? You are absolutely right in saying that "given the genetic markers now available, it is reasonable to state that there are no indications of any detectable presence of ancestors from the ancient Middle East." You are absolutely wrong in expecting there to be. And I am absolutely done with this conversation. I believe I said that once before. This time I mean it. You and Norman have yourselves a good time.

Bye, amazing how true believers run for the hills instead of dealing with the facts.

 

[outhouse]

amazing how true believers run for the hills instead of dealing with the facts.

That just it, you can never justify faith, with faith.

 

[Norman]

I don't want tid bits, where's the beef? Where are the fossils, where are the bones, were is the DNA analysis, where is the evidence?

All that we know about Quetzalcoatl has been altered by the western frame that the information was forced through.

Does this look like you idea of Jesus?

Of course, the idea that a Jesus Christ-like figure who visited and ministered among the Aztecs is great for the Mormons who try to use it to prove the Book of Mormon. We also must point out that the Mormon texts do not mention the Aztecs and does not take place in Mexico or Central America, but in North America with no Archaeological evidence. Of course in comparing the Quetzalcoatl with Jesus we find precious little to match. For example Quetzalcoatl is white. Jesus is not white. He is Jewish. Quetzalcoatl was going to come back and rule over the Aztecs. Jesus will rule over the whole earth. Critics also push the similarity that both Quetzalcoatl and Jesus were tempted. However Quetzalcoatl gave in to temptation committing incest and becoming drunk but Jesus never gave in. They are in no way comparable. And one cannot even say such false claims substantiate the Book of Mormon either. (thanks to: What had happen' was....) but that's neither here nor there, nice try at changing the subject, but go start your own thread and in the meantime please tell us: Where are the fossils, where are the bones, were is the DNA analysis, where is the evidence?

Norman: I need to learn how to down load pictures into my posts, when I do, I have some interesting photos for you also.I already stated the comparison of Quetzalcoatl and Jesus, of course it is always up for debate. Is it solid, no, an interesting comparison from my point of view. Jesus visited the America's, North America and Mesoamerica. Approximate Book of Mormon people Jaredites = Olmec Civilization (1500 BC-500 BC) Nephite-Lamanites = Izapa-Maya Civilization (500 BC-400 AD); Later Lamanites = Maya Civilization (200 AD-1000 AD). An interesting read if you are interested?; The Maya creation story recorded in The Book of Chilam Balam of Chumayel states, “The our Lord, God the Father measured his footstep. . . .the day, as it was called, was created, heaven and earth were created, the stairway of water, the earth, rocks and trees; the things of the sea and the things of the land were created.” (Roys 1967: 116-117, Notes 10 & 11). Jesus was a resurrected person when He appeared to the Nephites and evidently the people who saw him described him in that manner; that is there eye witness account. So, the record I posted stands on its own, it is a good match in my opinion. What do you mean by "go start your own thread?" I don't have to start my own thread, I am already in a thread that I have been posting in which has been about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. You have changed the subject many times just go back and look at your post's. Maybe, you should go into the Agnostic or Atheist DIR, I am sure you will feel more at home there. You seem to wonder in areas that you know nothing about. I have been studying for thirty years now about the Book of Mormon. If something counters what you believe you say it was altered, you have ignored so many facts. You don't want to debate, you just want to be heard and only want your point of view understood. It does not work that way Sapiens, you have called Joseph Smith so many disparaging names and even used the word liar; that is not a debate. Please learn how to debate.

 

[Norman]

Bye, amazing how true believers run for the hills instead of dealing with the facts.

Norman: Well I guess it is just me and you Sapiens. Is there a thread for just two people to debate?

 

[Sapiens]

Norman: Well I guess it is just me and you Sapiens. Is there a thread for just two people to debate?

Sure, but at this stage there is nothing to discuss until you deal with: Where are the fossils? Where are the bones? At a minimum.

The horse problem alone falsifies the BofM, so there is no need to complicate the discussion with all the other available falsifications.

 

[outhouse]

. Jesus visited the America's,

provide credible sources.

 

[outhouse]

Jaredites

Never existed.

Jaredites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The existence of the Jaredites is denied by almost all historians and archaeologists

 

[outhouse]

Lamanites

Never existed.

Lamanite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Lamanites are not considered to be a valid category of people by mainstream scholars.

 

[outhouse]

I have been studying for thirty years now about the Book of Mormon.

Then why cant you provide credible sources? So far everything has been faith based, and not one followed with any credibility.

 

[InChrist]

As a former LDS, now Christian, I find it very disturbing or maybe it is rather telling that the Mormon church has so much connection with occult and/ or paganism, such as making a connection of Jesus with Quetzalcoat and so many similarities to Masonry, to name a few. Along with that, I have spent years researching other areas of Mormon history and doctrines and from everything I've studied I've never seen any evidence that even one coin or any artifact has been found which would verify the existence of the Nephite or Lamanite people and that is besides the lack of DNA evidence.

"There is a stunning new video now available on this subject titled DNA vs. The Book of Mormon , which is both groundbreaking and powerful in its simplicity. Among the featured scientists is Dr. David Glenn Smith, a molecular anthropologist and researcher from the University of California at Davis who has studied Native Americans for 30 years, and whose lab is this country’s leading test center for Indian genetics. Here is his view, as well as the consensus of scientists in his field: “If you look at genes in Native Americans…they came from their ancestral populations....You can look for those genes in Jewish populations but you don’t find them...they don’t coincide at all. The homeland of Native Americans is East Asia.”


The video includes anthropologist and Mormon scholar, Thomas Murphy, who summarizes the dilemma for the LDS Church: “…we don’t have a single source from ancient America outside the Book of Mormon validating a single place, a single person, a single event....We don’t have any of that, so the problem that DNA poses for the Book of Mormon, in a sense, exemplifies the difficulties that we already have.…There’s never been any evidence that would show us that there had been an Israelite migration to the New World. Not in genetics or for that matter in any other source, historical, archaeological, or linguistic.”
Mormon Fiction | thebereancall.org

 

[outhouse]

, Thomas Murphy, who summarizes the dilemma for the LDS Church: “…we don’t have a single source from ancient America outside the Book of Mormon validating a single place, a single person, a single event....We don’t have any of that, so the problem that DNA poses for the Book of Mormon, in a sense, exemplifies the difficulties that we already have.…There’s never been any evidence that would show us that there had been an Israelite migration to the New World. Not in genetics or for that matter in any other source, historical, archaeological, or linguistic.”
Mormon Fiction | thebereancall.org

Which is what we expect from plagiarized material.

 

[Sapiens]

We seem to have a new right fielder here. I'm willing to bet that there is little that he and I agree on excepting what appears to be our shared view that the BfoM is a fraud.

 

[Norman]

Then why cant you provide credible sources? So far everything has been faith based, and not one followed with any credibility.

Norman: Hi outhouse, Yes, the Book of Mormon is a religious book, however, the people were real, they had culture, families, wars, traveling etc. There
is a lot of credible evidence of Etymology, Ontology, Liturgy, Christian eschatology and the list goes on and on. I have applied the enculturation of the Book of Mormon into my own life, I know that it is true. The people and there history is not Incipient or Inchoate, they existed for a long time. You said nothing Panegyric about Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon; you stated no facts or credible sources in my opinion about Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. It has been the Omphalos of my life for thirty years now. I have studied and read about the ethno historical of the Book off Mormon, it is pure Religion, it teaches the very essence of Dichotomy, Harmatiology and Pneumatology. The book supports Eschatology one hundred percent, need I say more?

 

[outhouse]

you stated no facts or credible sources in my opinion

Your opinion is not credible in these matters. You have proven yourself to be apologetically biased.

Your also no one to talk down to, or discount mainstream scholars, or almost all historians and archaeologists.


Its not our fault you have provided no credible sources to substantiate your claims.

 

[outhouse]

The book supports Eschatology one hundred percent, need I say more?

Yes.


If it doesn't support reality, you might have your hands full defending your personal faith, against education and knowledge.

 

[Norman]

Never existed.

Jaredites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The existence of the Jaredites is denied by almost all historians and archaeologists

Norman: "Almost" automatically leaves room that they did exist. I do not consider Wikipedia as a valuable source of information. Could you
please cite at least one person from a credible source? When I was in college many of my professors would not accept any information from
Wikipedia, primarily because it is written by common people and not scholars. So, I carry on the tradition of my professors and do not consider
it a viable source.