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A thought I had about polytheism and Paganism.

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
It's also painfully limiting and dreadfully boring, which is a major reason why I could never be a monotheist. :sweat:

Worship only one thing, forever? No thanks. That's like asking me to eat only one kind of meal for the rest of my life. I mean, I love rice crackers, but... bleh. :D

Ah, but not so fast: we have the 'Three Persons' in one Godhead plus a host of intercessors in heaven like the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Saints and the Angels :p

True, we only give adoration to the Most Blessed Trinity but you still get three for one!
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I wish I could've posted this in the DIR or something. I'm really looking for spiritual reasons why this might have happened from people who practice Hellenismos, Heathenry and other revived polytheistic religions. I know the practical reasons why they "lost".
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
If a city was defeated, that meant its god had been defeated (ancient Greece). The people accepted, and were forced to accept by decree, the gods of the conquerors.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
It's also painfully limiting and dreadfully boring, which is a major reason why I could never be a monotheist. :sweat:

Worship only one thing, forever? No thanks. That's like asking me to eat only one kind of meal for the rest of my life. I mean, I love rice crackers, but... bleh. :D

All about perspective.. We'll always worship, or serve, countless things throughout our lives, including ourselves and others.

Depends on how you define worship.

Recognizing that all things cohere to form a singular reality; that to me is the basis of monotheism.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Really? You're going to quote some Protestant fundie site as a source to me? Those groups are anti-Catholic and anti-Orthodox. They think we're all pagan devil worshippers, misinterpret and also make up crap.

That was one link of many. Simply Google "pagan origin of christian holidays," do a bit of reseach, and decide for yourself.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
The New Testament scholar Professor Larry Hurtado, of Edinburgh University, wrote a very convincing thesis regarding this topic in his 2016 book Destroyer of the Gods: Early Christian Distinctiveness in the Roman World:

https://www.amazon.com/Destroyer-gods-Early-Christian-Distinctiveness/dp/1481304747/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1526507607&sr=1-1&keywords=Destroyer+of+the+Gods:+Early+Christian+Distinctiveness+in+the+Roman+World


"In this lucid and wide-ranging book, Larry Hurtado convincingly shows how novel and distinctive early Christianity was in the religious world of the first century. He argues that early Christianity was in many respects a different kind of religion, and was revolutionary in the way that 'religion' has been understood ever since. Along the way, Hurtado sheds much light on the New Testament and on second century Christianity. He hopes to enhance 'our appreciation of the remarkable religious movement' that was early Christianity, and he admirably achieves exactly that."―Paul Trebilco, Professor of New Testament, University of Otago

"Clear and enlightening, Hurtado's coverage of the first centuries of Christianity explains why it was different, more philosophy than religion, and how its emergence as the supreme religion in the Roman world is less paradoxical than usually argued. This account is the nearest one can get to meeting an early Christian and quizzing them."―Robin Cormack, Emeritus Professor, Courtauld Institute of Art

"Whether one applauds or disdains the values of contemporary Western culture, what we assume to be good, true, and normal has been shaped to a surprising degree by early Christianity. Demolishing taken-for-granted assumptions about what religion was, is, and can be, Hurtado's provocative exploration deserves a broad audience."―Matthew W. Bates, Quincy University, OnScript

His colleague Professor Bart Ehrman did much the same earlier this year in his book The Triumph of Christianity: How a Forbidden Religion Swept the World:


https://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Christianity-Forbidden-Religion-Swept/dp/1501136704


How did a religion whose first believers were twenty or so illiterate day laborers in a remote part of the empire became the official religion of Rome, converting some thirty million people in just four centuries? In The Triumph of Christianity, early Christian historian Bart D. Ehrman weaves the rigorously-researched answer to this question “into a vivid, nuanced, and enormously readable narrative” (Elaine Pagels, National Book Award-winning author of The Gnostic Gospels), showing how a handful of charismatic characters used a brilliant social strategy and an irresistible message to win over hearts and minds one at a time.

This “humane, thoughtful and intelligent” book (The New York Times Book Review) upends the way we think about the single most important cultural transformation our world has ever seen—one that revolutionized art, music, literature, philosophy, ethics, economics, and law.


Since they are both accredited experts in their field, I would take their research into consideration.
 
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SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member

We can spend the day posting links to conflicting articles. I was simply shedding some light on the personal truth you shared and giving you some research options.

I have no desire to change what you believe. Feel free to hold true what you choose to.

I now return you to your regularly schedule thread.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Classical Greco-Roman polytheism declined and then was banned.
Who banned it again?

So what happened, on a spiritual level?
Mostly political levels, not spiritual. Christianity had no ethical concerns with letting pagans die.

Were the Pagan gods just weak as compared to the Abrahamic deity?
There are some texts that suggest the pre-Jewish pantheon WAS the Greek pantheon. El = Cronus. Yahweh = Poseidon. Baal Hadad = Zeus. Been researching for a novella I'm writing. :)

How could they allow their religions just to be destroyed and broken beyond fixing (it's not possible to truly reconstruct those religions, sorry)?
If I look up ancient Greek temples, they seem to be more intact than the Temple in Jerusalem. Just saying.

If you are a true polytheist, you must admit that the God of Abraham is a very powerful deity to be able to triumph over the old gods and capture the worship of billions.
LOL. Gods were less involved than the militaries. God's armies are defeated by chariots of iron. Note the bible doesn't say God's armies are defeated by iron WEAPONS, just VEHICLES. If you wanna get rid of angels now, you'd just shoot them with a gun.

Why do you think the old gods might've allowed their worship to be veritably wiped out? Is it part of a cycle?
One that the Abrahamics will experience as well.

I can understand your viewpoint but it's not the viewpoint of Classical Paganism, where the gods were keenly interested in the development of humanity and their worship was upholding balance, virtue and the good of society. To the Aztecs, worship of the gods kept the very cosmos functioning.
Some stories I've read have gods experience a pretty good time until people show up. Then it all goes to hell.

I am referring to Greco-Roman and ancient Near Eastern polytheisms. What I said is true for them. Religious worship was contractual in basis.
Zeus isn't known for emotional stability. Or Hera.

I wish I could've posted this in the DIR or something. I'm really looking for spiritual reasons why this might have happened from people who practice Hellenismos, Heathenry and other revived polytheistic religions. I know the practical reasons why they "lost".
The spiritual question then isn't why Zeus or whatever didn't help His people. The spiritual question is why did Jesus allow genocide.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
"Christ and pop culture" probably isn't the best website to link. Bias, and all that.

This one however, has no bias that I can discern:
Christianity's Pagan Roots: Traditions, Practices, and Holidays
But a Protestant fundie site that agrees with your bias is more appropriate. Go start your own thread if you want to bicker over the origins of holidays. There's plenty of people who will present the info to set you straight on it. But this isn't the thread about it.
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I argue myself into and out of stances and beliefs a lot. One of the more interesting thoughts I had lately was why didn't the Pagan gods defend their religions from decline and persecution?

I would say because the pagan gods were not in the position to defend themselves, on account of their not-existence. It is difficult to defend anything when you do not exist.

This is happening to non-pagan Gods for the same exact reason.

Ciao

- viole
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I argue myself into and out of stances and beliefs a lot. One of the more interesting thoughts I had lately was why didn't the Pagan gods defend their religions from decline and persecution? Classical Greco-Roman polytheism declined and then was banned. Celtic polytheism basically just disappeared at around the same time. Germanic religion was persecuted at times but the people also just converted along with their leaders. Similar things happened around the world with indigenous religions.

So what happened, on a spiritual level? Were the Pagan gods just weak as compared to the Abrahamic deity? How could they allow their religions just to be destroyed and broken beyond fixing (it's not possible to truly reconstruct those religions, sorry)? Why didn't they give their followers the strength to persevere under severe persecution as the Abrahamic deity seems to do with His followers (look at how many times Jews faced annihilation and Christians were/are persecuted)? If you are a true polytheist, you must admit that the God of Abraham is a very powerful deity to be able to triumph over the old gods and capture the worship of billions.

I'm not trying to offend or be rude. These are honest questions I have. Why do you think the old gods might've allowed their worship to be veritably wiped out? Is it part of a cycle? Free will? Fate?

Note: I'm primarily interested in spiritual reasons why this happened, especially from Neopagans who practice religions like Hellenismos and Asatru. If you have some other input from a more practical perspective, that's fine but not the main point of the thread.

@DavidMcCann, @The Ragin Pagan, @DanishCrow, @Reaper, @Hildeburh might you have some input from your traditions?
Think in a singular sweep rather than discrete breaks. More interconnected singular than a random multiplicity..

For me It's easier I think to explain in term of music..,
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
One of the more interesting thoughts I had lately was why didn't the Pagan gods defend their religions from decline and persecution?

So what happened, on a spiritual level? Were the Pagan gods just weak as compared to the Abrahamic deity? How could they allow their religions just to be destroyed and broken beyond fixing (it's not possible to truly reconstruct those religions, sorry)? Why didn't they give their followers the strength to persevere under severe persecution as the Abrahamic deity seems to do with His followers (look at how many times Jews faced annihilation and Christians were/are persecuted)?
As one of those you asked, I'll try to answer.

1. If you are set on by a mugger in the street and robbed, does that make him superior to you?

2. The persecution of Christians was a very sporadic thing that relied on people denouncing them to a magistrate. The persecution of pagans was different. The historian Peter Brown has written of the "wave of religious violence" carried out by "bands of monastic vigilantes." In such circumstances, one either keeps ones head down or dies. In Iceland in 1000, Thorgeirr the Lawgiver advised his fellow heathen to convert to avoid a civil war and a Norwegian invasion. Paganism encourages realism, not fanaticism. And admittedly some people just jumped on the band wagon for personal gain.

3. We do not believe the gods are omnipotent. They could no more stop the persecuters than Yahweh could and, as I've said, they would not encourage people to become "martyrs". Nor do they have the obsessive desire to have people grovel to them that it attributed, rightly or wrongly, to Yahweh. If people want a relationship with them, they are welcome; if they don't, that's their loss, not the gods'.

4. The religion is not "broken beyond fixing." The gods still speak to their worshipers, guide them, and aid them, and increasing numbers find. Christianity, however, is in decline. Similarly, only legal repression protects Islam in Muslim countries: a recent survey shows a quarter of Muslim immigrants to the USA have abandoned the religion. The gods take the long view: what are a few centuries to them?
 
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