Koldo
Outstanding Member
Put them all together in the same basket and you still don't get omnipotence.
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A thought I had about polytheism and Paganism.
- Thread starter Saint Frankenstein
- Start date
Put them all together in the same basket and you still don't get omnipotence.
Sorry, but I would get another deity. Doomed to anchovies? How cruel!.......Unless of course you like anchovies. In that case, Carry on.
They didn't need omnipotence, just strength and resolve.
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Jumi
Well-Known Member
This reminds me of Judges 1:19.
It says the Israelites could not drive out the iron chariots. G-d gave them up to this fate because they had previously transgressed and made a pact with a people they were told to annihilate. Not that HaShem was unable to accomplish it.
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Koldo
Outstanding Member
God has omnipotence and millions of jews died.
Guess what happens when you don't have omnipotence ?
I think you're missing the point. G-d, for whatever reason, allowed it to happen. He could have stopped it had He wanted.
I guess the Pagan gods just wanted all their followers to abandon them. Lol.
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Koldo
Outstanding Member
If what happened is that God wanted millions of Jews to die then it doesn't sound so far-fetched that the other gods didn't care about their own followers either.
Maybe they didn't. Who knows.
I talk hypothetically since I don't actually believe they exist at all.
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Apologes
Active Member
Interesting question.
As a classical theist, I never took polytheism (at least not of the ancient Greek pantheon sort) seriously. For one, it is such a metaphysically extravagant view that it just cannot be affirmed on the evidence we have without violating Ockham's razor. Other than that, the problem of utter absence of uniformity or moral excellence of this pantheon is basically a Pandora's box of problems with regards to divine-human relationships, obvious antropomorphism and even global skepticism.
Your question illustrates another problem with the view and that is the question of the pantheon's competence and/or desires. If we are to grant that these gods actually exist (as I take your thread to be a question of what kind of picture the decline of polytheistic religions paints of said gods rather than the question of those gods actually existing) then we are faced with two, equally disturbing alternatives:
1) the gods were unable to prevent the doom of their religions
2) the gods were uninterested in the doom of their religions
On (1), the gods wanted to maintain their religions, did what they could and (for whatever reason) they failed. As such, they end up being rather incompetent and fall short of the superiority over mere mortals that is so often attributed to them. It makes little sense to seek connection with or worship these beings as they are apparently unable to sustain such a relationship (if they can even muster enough power to start it again).
On (2), the gods had it in their power to maintain their religions and could have easily (for all we know) shattered the plans of mere mortals, but it happens to be the case that they are simply not interested in being worshiped and judged it as fitting that no mortal be bothering them with their cries. While this does nothing to damage the cosmic standing of these gods, it does conclusively abolish all need for polytheistic religions in question. If the gods do not want to be worshiped or are (at best) apathetic to it, what reason is there to worship them?
Both options, which I (funny enough) saw a couple of polytheists here actually endorse, take away from the rationality of polytheistic worship. So, does the doom of those polytheistic religions necessitate a rational person to stay away from them? Despite my strong anti-polytheistic sentiment, I do not think so. Mere demise of these religions at one time need not mean said religions cannot be revisited. I think a third, more satisfactory (at least as satisfactory as polytheism can get) alternative can be offered and it goes as follows:
3) the gods were able to prevent the doom of their religions and found it appealing, but a greater cause compelled them not to intervene
To elaborate, it could be the case that Odin, Zeus, Ra etc. wished to keep their religions alive, but realized that it will be for the greater good to have those religions die. One good possible reason could be that the gods saw (through whatever magical means) that their religions will be revived later in the distant future and be so strong that they will be able to definitively destroy all their oppressors, thereby making polytheism ultimately victorious.
On this view, polytheists seem to, at the very least, not be completely irrational in seeking connections with their gods for them doing so may be the start of the great revival of their religions. As such, it doesn't strictly follow from the death of those religions that attempting to engage in them again is irrational. This is, however, mere speculation, one that may be enough to constitute a broadly logically possible solution, but not one that is anywhere near obvious or supported by evidence. It also leaves open the question of how to fit this view with traditional beliefs regarding those gods, so the polytheist has a lot of work to do if they wish to rationally hold their polytheism.
The objection, while definitively an interesting one which tells us a lot about the poor state these gods are in, is not one that can establish the irrationality of polytheism. It can, however, be a part of a cumulative case against polytheism which is, I think, more than capable of accounting for why polytheism is a far inferior view than monotheism.
As a classical theist, I never took polytheism (at least not of the ancient Greek pantheon sort) seriously. For one, it is such a metaphysically extravagant view that it just cannot be affirmed on the evidence we have without violating Ockham's razor. Other than that, the problem of utter absence of uniformity or moral excellence of this pantheon is basically a Pandora's box of problems with regards to divine-human relationships, obvious antropomorphism and even global skepticism.
Your question illustrates another problem with the view and that is the question of the pantheon's competence and/or desires. If we are to grant that these gods actually exist (as I take your thread to be a question of what kind of picture the decline of polytheistic religions paints of said gods rather than the question of those gods actually existing) then we are faced with two, equally disturbing alternatives:
1) the gods were unable to prevent the doom of their religions
2) the gods were uninterested in the doom of their religions
On (1), the gods wanted to maintain their religions, did what they could and (for whatever reason) they failed. As such, they end up being rather incompetent and fall short of the superiority over mere mortals that is so often attributed to them. It makes little sense to seek connection with or worship these beings as they are apparently unable to sustain such a relationship (if they can even muster enough power to start it again).
On (2), the gods had it in their power to maintain their religions and could have easily (for all we know) shattered the plans of mere mortals, but it happens to be the case that they are simply not interested in being worshiped and judged it as fitting that no mortal be bothering them with their cries. While this does nothing to damage the cosmic standing of these gods, it does conclusively abolish all need for polytheistic religions in question. If the gods do not want to be worshiped or are (at best) apathetic to it, what reason is there to worship them?
Both options, which I (funny enough) saw a couple of polytheists here actually endorse, take away from the rationality of polytheistic worship. So, does the doom of those polytheistic religions necessitate a rational person to stay away from them? Despite my strong anti-polytheistic sentiment, I do not think so. Mere demise of these religions at one time need not mean said religions cannot be revisited. I think a third, more satisfactory (at least as satisfactory as polytheism can get) alternative can be offered and it goes as follows:
3) the gods were able to prevent the doom of their religions and found it appealing, but a greater cause compelled them not to intervene
To elaborate, it could be the case that Odin, Zeus, Ra etc. wished to keep their religions alive, but realized that it will be for the greater good to have those religions die. One good possible reason could be that the gods saw (through whatever magical means) that their religions will be revived later in the distant future and be so strong that they will be able to definitively destroy all their oppressors, thereby making polytheism ultimately victorious.
On this view, polytheists seem to, at the very least, not be completely irrational in seeking connections with their gods for them doing so may be the start of the great revival of their religions. As such, it doesn't strictly follow from the death of those religions that attempting to engage in them again is irrational. This is, however, mere speculation, one that may be enough to constitute a broadly logically possible solution, but not one that is anywhere near obvious or supported by evidence. It also leaves open the question of how to fit this view with traditional beliefs regarding those gods, so the polytheist has a lot of work to do if they wish to rationally hold their polytheism.
The objection, while definitively an interesting one which tells us a lot about the poor state these gods are in, is not one that can establish the irrationality of polytheism. It can, however, be a part of a cumulative case against polytheism which is, I think, more than capable of accounting for why polytheism is a far inferior view than monotheism.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
It doesn't interest you that the True Religion makes its people hateful and a lover of falsehoods? Is this like how in the bible, Hebrews/Jews can't understand why God is so mad at them but it never occurs to them to think maybe their policies could use some work? Like, NOT stealing land and committing genocide? I'm just saying it might be contributory to all the hostility.
Your question seeks to blame the victim, to dehumanize them so that it's not just enough that they were on the bad end of a political scenario but that they are spiritually deficient.
Lots of Abrahamics die without ever being rescued. So what?
They had their stuff destroyed.
And Yahweh thought He could lose about 60 million followers without hurting too bad.
GoodbyeDave
Well-Known Member
Surely a point being missed here is that the supposedly omnipotent Yahweh stood by and let millions of Jews be slaughtered. Our gods advised us to keep our heads down and people survived. I know what I'd prefer!
Yes, people had to practice a false religion, but less than two thousand years later that's beginning to die out. Europeans can now start returning to their original beliefs. The fact that documentation is sketchy on Germanic and Celtic practice is only a minor difficulty: if in doubt, try asking the gods what to do! Also you don't need to worship exactly the same gods as your ancestors. Many people of European descent have converted from Christianity or Judaism to Hinduism, Shinto, or Shenjiao: gods aren't racists.
And as I've said before, the gods don't need to be worshiped. They like humans but they're not so selfish as to want us to risk our lives just so that they can have our company. They don't need us to reassure them as to how great they are: they don't have inferiority complexes!
Yes, people had to practice a false religion, but less than two thousand years later that's beginning to die out. Europeans can now start returning to their original beliefs. The fact that documentation is sketchy on Germanic and Celtic practice is only a minor difficulty: if in doubt, try asking the gods what to do! Also you don't need to worship exactly the same gods as your ancestors. Many people of European descent have converted from Christianity or Judaism to Hinduism, Shinto, or Shenjiao: gods aren't racists.
And as I've said before, the gods don't need to be worshiped. They like humans but they're not so selfish as to want us to risk our lives just so that they can have our company. They don't need us to reassure them as to how great they are: they don't have inferiority complexes!
Very thought-provoking post. Thank you.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That is, if the "old gods" existed except in people's minds. Or as ghosts perhaps?
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Be sure not to cut yourself on that Pizza Cutter.
