"A" Torath Mosheh View of Human Suffering and Responsibility

[Aupmanyav]

@Ehav4Ever , this theory is full of holes. In many things, science is very certain. For example that the expansion of the universe happened somewhere around 14.7 billion years ago. Motion is always relative. To a person on Earth, the Earth is moving around the sun, and the sun is moving along with the Milky Way and Milky way is moving out as if it was a point on an expanding balloon (roughly said). Every thing in the universe is moving. Nothing is at rest, not even an electron or a proton. It is a very dynamic universe. I won't discuss each and every point in the images posted by you, that will be a great waste of time. But for science, one should not go to Torath Mosheh but to science books. If they had not done that, there would not have been so many Jewish Nobel prize winners in science. What is better than what the evidence suggests or believing what a two or three thousand year old book says? Do the theists have similar evidence for their beliefs?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

@Ehav4Ever , this theory is full of holes.

I haven't provided any theories for anything. I don't think you carefully read whose "opinion" I provided which is summarized in the slide defining what how "they" define science is. See highlighted section below.

The above was written by Dr. Bruce Railsback at the University of Georgia - Department of Geology, so you will have to argue with him about his views of the field he works in.

Further:

@Ehav4Ever In many things, science is very certain.

This statement is not worded correctly. Science is the name of a word used to describe something. The correct thing to state would that people who correctly use the scientific method have things that they certain about within various levels of certainty, depending on the research and available technology that exists to establish certainty.

That being stated, Torath Mosheh Jews 100% agree with you that anything that has been established with certainty is "certain." Anything that is "very certain" is very certain. Further, anything for which the results can be debated or interpreted in more than way is a anything for which the results can be debated or interpreted in more than way.

For example that the expansion of the universe happened somewhere around 14.7 billion years ago. Motion is always relative. To a person on Earth, the Earth is moving around the sun, and the sun is moving along with the Milky Way and Milky way is moving out as if it was a point on an expanding balloon (roughly said). Every thing in the universe is moving. Nothing is at rest, not even an electron or a proton. It is a very dynamic universe. I won't discuss each and every point in the images posted by you, that will be a great waste of time.

Torath Mosheh actually agree with you here on this particular point. Never been an arguement from Torath Mosheh Jews for more than 2,000 years on the points you bring up here.

The problem is that you mixed up two completely seperate things and you didn't take the time to read what I presented. You will notice that the slide you are critiqueing came from a non-Torath Mosheh source. I.e. it's from an article of one "opinion" of how to define the word science. Here is the link to his article.

What Science Isn't

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But for science, one should not go to Torath Mosheh but to science books.

You are kidding right? Torath Mosheh states that Torath Mosheh Jews should go to those who actually work in the various disciplines for scientific information. This is why there are a long list of Torath Mosheh Jews who throughout history have studied science. About half of the mitzvoth in the Torah can't even be done w/o learning, becoming an expert in, or skimming through one or more discipline of science.

BTW, books are not enough. Just because something is written in a book doesn't mean it is correct or relevant. Besides, real science is done by getting in the lab/or on site and doing the research and repeating it. That is at least the way we did it when I studied Physics, Chemistry, Circuit Theory, etc. when I was in university.

The concept of turning to the current/relevant scientific knowledge of the day is actually even stated in the Talmud. Further, in the Moreh HaNevuchim it is also stated that those who are closest to Hashem are those who know science and other studies along with Torah.

This concept is a part of Torath Mosheh, thus respectfully I don't think you really know what Torath Mosheh is.

Besides, some of the greatest leaders of Jewish communities for thousands of years have been scientists. Such as:

• Rav Saadya Gaon (Mathematics, Astronomy, and Chemistry)
• Rabbi Ibn-Ezra (Astronomy, Mathmatics)
• Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon (Medicine, Astromony, Philosophy, History)
• Rabbi Mosheh ben-Nahhman (Medicine)
• Rabbi Levi ben Gershon (Mathematics)
  
• Rabbi Abraham Kook (General science)
• Rabbi Yihhyeh Qafahh - (Astronomy, Chemistry)
• Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (Mathematics, Physics, and Philosophy)
• Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz (Mathematics, Physics, and Chemistry)
• Dr. Shlomo Qafahh (Medicine, Biology)
• Rabbi Michael Avraham (Physics)
• Rabbi Yohhai Maqbilli (Electrical Engineering, Computer Science, Philosophy)

Just to name a few. Concerning science and books, here a few Torath Mosheh books on science.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Do the theists have similar evidence for their beliefs?

You will have to direct that question to a theist. I am not a theist and I don't work in the field of theist beleif.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I visited the link that you mentioned. It gives a further list of links to various places. Do you think anyone would have time to go through all that? And which of these addresses is an academic institution or information from religious apologists? I do know the limitations of science. For the religious, even creation of man from "dust of the ground" is OK. That is what Old Testament says.
Torath Moshe

You are kidding right?

No. I am not.

You will have to direct that question to a theist. I am not a theist and I don't work in the field of theist belief.

Good (for me as a strong atheist).

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I visited the link that you mentioned. It gives a further list of links to various places. Do you think anyone would have time to go through all that?

I never claimed that you had to go there. I simply provided it to reference what I posted as a graphic. I am not a trying to convince you that Professor Bruce Railsback has a valid view/opinion of science or even one that lines up with your own. His "opinion" about science speaks for itself. Further, he is not a Torath Mosheh Jew.

In terms of what anyone has the time to go through. Given all of the long back and forths I have seen people on RF taking part in - debating topics (for months or years) - I assume that anyone posting here has enough time to verify something as short as this.

If someone has the ability to seriously study any discipline of science - often a lot of reading and researching is required before the lab work even begins - I would think that looking at one or two pages on the internet would not be a problem.

And which of these addresses is an academic institution or information from religious apologists?

I provided that Information earlier. FYI. I don't subscribe to "religious apologists" so would not post that kind of information in a discussion. Here it what I posted again with something additional at the end.

BTW - The first source in the above slide is about 400–600 C.E. and the second is from between 1138–1204 C.E.

I do know the limitations of science. For the religious, even creation of man from "dust of the ground" is OK. That is what Old Testament says.

I can't speak to what Christians who read an "Old Testament" consider the English statement "dust of the ground" to mean. Given that as a Torath Mosheh Jew I don't read an "old testament" and definately something in English, I know that the meaning of the below statement is better illistrated by Torath Mosheh sources state about it being a (רמז) for something more lofty.

Especially since (אדמה) is known to mean way more than dirt from planet earth. Something more akin to this.

No. I am not.

Of course not. You knew the whole time that the following Torath Mosheh leaders from the last several thousand years were all scientists.

• Rav Saadya Gaon (Mathematics, Astronomy, and Chemistry)
• Rabbi Ibn-Ezra (Astronomy, Mathmatics)
• Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon (Medicine, Astromony, Philosophy, History)
• Rabbi Mosheh ben-Nahhman (Medicine)
• Rabbi Levi ben Gershon (Mathematics)
  
• Rabbi Abraham Kook (General science)
• Rabbi Yihhyeh Qafahh - (Astronomy, Chemistry)
• Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (Mathematics, Physics, and Philosophy)
• Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz (Mathematics, Physics, and Chemistry)
• Dr. Shlomo Qafahh (Medicine, Biology)
• Rabbi Michael Avraham (Physics)
• Rabbi Yohhai Maqbilli (Electrical Engineering, Computer Science, Philosophy)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Good (for me as a strong atheist).

 

[Clara Tea]

1. Why would a serial killer be allowed to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime?
   
2. Is what ever created everything helpless to intervene because of the human free will?
   
3. Why doesn't what ever created everything respond and react at certain times to what human perceive as human suffering?

There are a number of Torath Mosheh views on the above that I will summerize in this and a few other posts.

1. The average human, non-Jewish, has 7 mitzvoth/commands/rules with which to base human life and society on.
   • Two of which relate to your base questions are that a) murder is forbidden and b) that human societies must establish systems of justice and enforce them as well as strictly abide by them. Each of these two can be broken up into volumes of sub-categories.
   • For Jews, as a nation it is 613.
2. As a part of the "type of free will" there are two "basic" sides people. One called the Yetzer HaTov and the Yetzer HaRa.
   • Both sides are important. Both sides have a purpose.
   • These two sides are part of how humans can choose to either receive the good of the reality we are created in or reject it/distance themselves from it; also included is the ability make to make a mess of things.
   • Both are fully in a person's ability to cotrol and both have a use that can work out for the benefit of the individual and for society.
3. All choices have consquences.
   • 
     
   • The personal choice to disregard the 7 mitzvoth come along with personal and societal consquences.
   • The societal choice to disregard the 7 mitzvoth come along with personal and societal consquences.
     
   • By like token the choice hold by them and establish them have personal and collective consquences.
   • Again, for the Jewish nation there are 613.
4. Every person has a type of account that comes along with their actions and the actions of the soceity around them.
   • The action or inaction of the individual and society can tip things in one direction or another.
   • Actions taken or not taken have an affect on this account.
   • Further, there are no such things as small actions that effect nothing. All action or inaction leads somewhere.
   • As humans we don't have the ability to see this account, at least not fully. (I.e. see the following video about what I mean on perspective The fundamentals of space-time: Part 2 - Andrew Pontzen and Tom Whyntie)
5. There is this world and there is a world to come.
   • Using a military metapor, this world is like "boot-camp" and anyone who has done military service knows that boot-camp has many challenges associeted with it that a perspective soldier is expected to overcome personally and as a part of a group.
   • In a good/just military training system the challenges are never impossible to overcome and the goal of them being there is to get the perspective soldier in the right mindset and physical state to be a proper soldier.
     
   • The world to come is like the accomplishment of surviving and overcoming boot camp. Some people reach the goal, some people quit, and some people make a mess of the whole experience.
6. Death and suffering in this world is not the end. Depending on the type of life a person lived there can be a reward when a person has suffered and when they have overcome adversity.
   • A person can live a life where they receive all the benefits of the good they do only this world.
   • A person can live a life where they will only receive the benefits of the good they do only the world to come.
   • There are some people who are able to receive the good in both.
   • There are some people who live their lives where they will receive all of the results of the bad they do in this world and in the world to come.
   • Receiving the bad in the world to come is often translated into not have a place in the world to come.
   • There is no eternal place of punishment in the world to come.
7. The Creator of all things has the ability to, if you will, "see the bigger picture w/o human eyes." I.e. the Creator of all things is not a human, has no human emotions, and is able to grasp the real bigger picture on a univeral/beyond universal level, so to speak.
   • Combined with that the Creator of all things established the universe in the way it is for the benefit of humanity.
   • Humanity can choose to use that gift correctly or not.
   • The Creator also established ways for those who choose to receive the good and use this gift properly to survive and overcome all challenges, either in this world or in the world to come.
   • The Creator's seeing the bigger picture also includes knowing when to intervene, how to intervene, when to prevent certain types of people from being turning away from evil, knowing when to strengthen those who are doing the right things, knowing when to allow a life to begin, knowing when to allow a life to end, knowing how to allow a life to begin, knowing how to allow a life to end, and knowing the conquences of how humans respond to the reality we are born into and will one day pass away from.
   • Given that we humans have no say in our birth, it would stand to reason that we also only have a certain say in our deaths. For example, all humans are created with an end date, so to speak, we cannot extend that (date of death) beyond what we were created for. YET, we can lessen it and we can make it a long hard journey by our choices and the choices of the society around us. We can also make it the most joyful life every based again on our choices and the choices in society around us.
   • By like token, given that we ourselves didn't establish any of the universal or phsyical laws of the universe that allows life to be sustained we at some point have to adjust to the fact that there are things that are not in our control and we, while alive in a human body, don't have the ability see all the angles. Yet, we have every right to research, question, challenge, and come to conclusions.
8. Lastly, we humans have the world the way we want it, at any given time.
   • We have been given the power to choose between making things perfect w/o suffering or to make a world that is full of it.
   • This is the way most humans want it and that is the way the Creator has structured it; that is until humans choose to reject the mindsets and actions that individually cause suffering and collectively cause suffering.

Thus, from Torath Mosheh perspective we study our historical texts with the above perspectives in mind - and further that the Torah was given not as a history book but an instructional for dealing with the reality that we are born into.

God's punishments are excessive (some humans can tolerate them, and others can't). Nazi torture was excessive. The Jewish religion made it difficult for someone to merely give up their religion when Hitler was torturing them.

 

[YoursTrue]

I wouldn't say it is "beyond" comprehension on a scientific level. Many aspects of how reality works is fully within the grasps of people who research, experiment, study, and experience. Also, just because something has been discovered or known in one generation doesn't mean it can't be or won't be known in a future one.

For example, often the problem may be that people have to first define what the word "science" in English even means to them. In Hebrew, our word for science presents no problem with Torath Mosheh; also neither do the English definitions. For example:

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Certainly there are fundamentals in science that are -- fundamentals. Such as the energy in atoms. And harmful bacteria that might develop in rotten food.

 

[YoursTrue]

First, I would have to ask, "Why does it matter what some people question?" If something is true it shouldn't matter who questions it and questions should be welcome. That is how things work in the Torath Mosheh world view of things. Further, the Torah Mosheh claim is not that Moses "wrote" a book called Genesis. The Torath Mosheh claim is that Mosheh ben-Amram had the entire Torah (Beresheeth, Shemoth, Wayiqra, Bemidbar, and Devarim) shown/dictated to him by Hashem and he transcribed what was shown/dictated to him in Hebrew. Further, the Torath Mosheh claim is that the Torah was given in two components, a written Torah and an oral Torah. Both, being the Torah of Hashem. Not one w/o the other.
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Can you please show me a scripture that says the entire first 5 books was dictated by the Almighty God to Moses? Thank you.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

God's punishments are excessive (some humans can tolerate them, and others can't). Nazi torture was excessive. The Jewish religion made it difficult for someone to merely give up their religion when Hitler was torturing them.

Lucky for us Jews we outsurvived hitler, may his name be dust, his followers and all the others like him who came before him such as the Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Hellonists, Romans, Christians, etc. etc.

Also, we Torath Mosheh Jews are also willing to accept a pretty well known Torah fact. If we keep the Torah properly we don't have to experience any of the previously mentioned groups. If we don't it is like we are telling Hashem, not a god, that we don't want his protection and that we want the worst that the world has to offer.

Just think of it this way. By Jews even being in Germany the possibility of hilter, may his name remain in the toilet, and his followers doing what they did, of their own accord, was possible. Yet, now Jews having the ability to not be in foreign lands has given us the ability to move a few steps closer to the perfection sitaution for Jews, what we call in our language the (גאולה).

Thank you for your comment.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Can you please show me a scripture that says the entire first 5 books was dictated by the Almighty God to Moses? Thank you.

All of the below from the Hebrew Tanakh denote that Mosheh ben-Amram transcibed what Hashem told him. There are are a few more, but this should be enough to start.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Nazi torture was excessive. The Jewish religion made it difficult for someone to merely give up their religion when Hitler was torturing them.

One more note on this item. You may want to check your history. The Nazi rounded up Jews who already given up what you call a "religion." Further, the Nazi's went as far as go back try and trace Jewish geneology several generations back in Germans who were not practicing a religion.

Lastly, one of the things the Nazi's did accomplish. They did show some of how dangerous it is for Jews to be in or try to blend into host countries and socieites. We were actually warned about this and how a number of host socieites would turn on us no matter how much we try to be like them. Luckily, the Nazi were proven to be worthless and weak thus they were relegated to the dumpster of history with many children of Nazi's turning against the ideals of their parents and grandparents.

IN FACT, there are some children of Nazis who became Jewish and joined the Jewish people. Talk about a turn around. Here is one example.

 

[YoursTrue]

All of the below from the Hebrew Tanakh denote that Mosheh ben-Amram transcibed what Hashem told him. There are are a few more, but this should be enough to start.

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I realize there are times that the Almighty God told Moses to write. But ..that doesn't mean He dictated every word. That Moses writings of the Torah were inspired by God there isn't doubt in my mind. The preserved writings of Moses were inspired and blessed by God. The blessings and maledictions and the history. But there is no doubt in my mind that he didn't write that he died. No matter what the Talmud and the oral tradition may say. Similarly there is no doubt in my mind that Mary the mother of Yeshua (Jesus) was not the 'eternal virgin" no matter what others believe or what "saint" Jerome said. Moses wrote what he knew and saw and his writings were inspired and preserved by God the Almighty.

 

[YoursTrue]

One more note on this item. You may want to check your history. The Nazi rounded up Jews who already given up what you call a "religion." Further, the Nazi's went as far as go back try and trace Jewish geneology several generations back in Germans who were not practicing a religion.

Lastly, one of the things the Nazi's did accomplish. They did show some of how dangerous it is for Jews to be in or try to blend into host countries and socieites. We were actually warned about this and how a number of host socieites would turn on us no matter how much we try to be like them. Luckily, the Nazi were proven to be worthless and weak thus they were relegated to the dumpster of history with many children of Nazi's turning against the ideals of their parents and grandparents.

IN FACT, there are some children of Nazis who became Jewish and joined the Jewish people. Talk about a turn around. Here is one example.

Look, let's be honest. Some Jews became Catholics.

 

[YoursTrue]

All of the below from the Hebrew Tanakh denote that Mosheh ben-Amram transcibed what Hashem told him. There are are a few more, but this should be enough to start.

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Unfortunately I do not know much Hebrew, so it would be better for comprehension if you would post English translation from a source you respect. Thanks.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Unfortunately I do not know much Hebrew, so it would be better for comprehension if you would post English translation from a source you respect. Thanks.

Sorry, I can't help you with an English translation. I have noticed over the years a tendancy from "certain" Christians to want to debate "translation" while ignoring the source material and the context that created it.

Torath Mosheh Jews have a rule. If you want to know what a written text "really" says you have to address it in the language it was written in. Since we all know that translation is a type of commentary we know that all Christian translations are based on Christian commentary and Jewish translations are based on Jewish commentary.

Since you are asking me questions about what is found in the Hebrew Tanakh you in turn have respect that you are actually asking me what the Torath Mosheh Jewish Oral Torah received from Mosheh ben-Amram/transmitted understanding/tradition states. If this is what you are actually asking then you have to accept that just as the world knows the Hebrew Tanakh comes from Torath Mosheh Jews and thus we have the understanding from the authors of how it was put together and by who. The same way IF a person wants to know what JW's hold by they have go to JW's and accept that the JW's know what they hold by than let's say a Catholic.

If instead you asking me what an English translation is saying then I think you have the ability to find a translation that you think got it right and go by that. Let me know which path you prefer.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Look, let's be honest. Some Jews became Catholics.

Yeah let's be honest. That Inquistion tortored or scared a lot of Jews "in Spain/Portugal" into becoming Catholic.

Other than that I have never met or heard of a Torath Mosheh Jew who became a Catholic. Would you like to mentions some of names of the Jews you are talking about?

Only Jews with questionable backgrounds and no Torah learning/Hebrew at all have become Catholic or even Christian for that matter.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I realize there are times that the Almighty God told Moses to write. But ..that doesn't mean He dictated every word.

Actually, the Jewish sources I provided stated it does but even more important than that......drum roll........Mosheh ben-Amram informed all of his students and the entire generation at that time that the written text he gave them, 13 copies in total, totally came from Hashem.

As a Christian, you don't have to beleive us Torath Mosheh Jews on this point. It would make sense that you don't accept Torath Mosheh Jewish sources on this matter no different than you and I don't accept the Nicene Creed. I.e. what I am describing is foreign to the JW concept. I know that and I understand why. By like token the JW concept is completely foreign to Torath Mosheh Jews and strange in various areas - yet any time you state that JW hold by something I simply accept your statement as the JW theology and move on because JW theology doesn't present a question to me.

Thus, I can agree with you as a Christian it is not clear to you how the Torah came about. It is not like modern day Christians descend from family trees where they can idenitify their ancestry with those who received the Torah from Mosheh ben-Amram. Thus, I accept that concept a Moses that exists in Christianity is not aligned with the Mosheh ben-Amram who gave the Torah to Am Yisrael and explained to them how he got along with other details - like how to understand it in the language that he transcribed it in based on Hashem dictation.

 

[YoursTrue]

Actually, the Jewish sources I provided stated it does but even more important than that......drum roll........Mosheh ben-Amram informed all of his students and the entire generation at that time that the written text he gave them, 13 copies in total, totally came from Hashem.

As a Christian, you don't have to beleive us Torath Mosheh Jews on this point. It would make sense that you don't accept Torath Mosheh Jewish sources on this matter no different than you and I don't accept the Nicene Creed. I.e. what I am describing is foreign to the JW concept. I know that and I understand why. By like token the JW concept is completely foreign to Torath Mosheh Jews and strange in various areas - yet any time you state that JW hold by something I simply accept your statement as the JW theology and move on because JW theology doesn't present a question to me.

Thus, I can agree with you as a Christian it is not clear to you how the Torah came about. It is not like modern day Christians descend from family trees where they can idenitify their ancestry with those who received the Torah from Mosheh ben-Amram. Thus, I accept that concept a Moses that exists in Christianity is not aligned with the Mosheh ben-Amram who gave the Torah to Am Yisrael and explained to them how he got along with other details - like how to understand it in the language that he transcribed it in based on Hashem dictation.

Let me start at the beginning of your statement. You say that "Mosheh ben-Amram informed all of his students and the entire generation at that time that the written text he gave them, 13 copies in total, totally came from Hashem." By Mosheh ben-Amram I'm thinking you might mean Moses the son of Amram? It's probably better if you speak English for me if you want me to follow at all. Otherwise, you might as well speak in tongues.