"A" Torath Mosheh View of Human Suffering and Responsibility

[YoursTrue]

Actually, the Jewish sources I provided stated it does but even more important than that......drum roll........Mosheh ben-Amram informed all of his students and the entire generation at that time that the written text he gave them, 13 copies in total, totally came from Hashem.

As a Christian, you don't have to beleive us Torath Mosheh Jews on this point. It would make sense that you don't accept Torath Mosheh Jewish sources on this matter no different than you and I don't accept the Nicene Creed. I.e. what I am describing is foreign to the JW concept. I know that and I understand why. By like token the JW concept is completely foreign to Torath Mosheh Jews and strange in various areas - yet any time you state that JW hold by something I simply accept your statement as the JW theology and move on because JW theology doesn't present a question to me.

Thus, I can agree with you as a Christian it is not clear to you how the Torah came about. It is not like modern day Christians descend from family trees where they can idenitify their ancestry with those who received the Torah from Mosheh ben-Amram. Thus, I accept that concept a Moses that exists in Christianity is not aligned with the Mosheh ben-Amram who gave the Torah to Am Yisrael and explained to them how he got along with other details - like how to understand it in the language that he transcribed it in based on Hashem dictation.

By the way, last time I spoke to an orthodox Jew in my old neighborhood he said that because I speak from a different source he would not listen to me. Furthermore, before I became a Witness I was a Jew, as you probably know. And furthermore, nobody, and I mean nobody, taught me much of anything scriptural before I studied with the Witnesses. Yes I went to synagogue, yes I was a good student. Yes many of my close family blood relatives were killed in the holocaust sadly to say, and some escaped before and after, and some went to Israel. (We visited them in Ramat Gan. I went to the western (wailing) wall -- said a prayer there before I knew about Jehovah's Witnesses -- in fact I used to shut the door and insult Jehovah's Witnesses. God himself answered my prayer by giving me a boy in marriage that symbolically wore a yarmulka -- and literally, before we studied with the Witnesses...). So while I consider it, here's what I have to say -- there are some things I believe and some I don't -- about -- religion. And other things. So -- thanks for conversation -- I hope the best for you. I look forward to the promises put forth by the holy God Almighty in the holy Bible -- I am glad to have learned what I have learned. Jacob blessed his sons -- I won't go into detail now -- but suffice it to say that I am glad, happy, and very much joyful that I have learned from the Witnesses what I have learned. Shalom, and we shall see what we shall see.

 

[YoursTrue]

Actually, the Jewish sources I provided stated it does but even more important than that......drum roll........Mosheh ben-Amram informed all of his students and the entire generation at that time that the written text he gave them, 13 copies in total, totally came from Hashem.

As a Christian, you don't have to beleive us Torath Mosheh Jews on this point. It would make sense that you don't accept Torath Mosheh Jewish sources on this matter no different than you and I don't accept the Nicene Creed. I.e. what I am describing is foreign to the JW concept. I know that and I understand why. By like token the JW concept is completely foreign to Torath Mosheh Jews and strange in various areas - yet any time you state that JW hold by something I simply accept your statement as the JW theology and move on because JW theology doesn't present a question to me.

Thus, I can agree with you as a Christian it is not clear to you how the Torah came about. It is not like modern day Christians descend from family trees where they can idenitify their ancestry with those who received the Torah from Mosheh ben-Amram. Thus, I accept that concept a Moses that exists in Christianity is not aligned with the Mosheh ben-Amram who gave the Torah to Am Yisrael and explained to them how he got along with other details - like how to understand it in the language that he transcribed it in based on Hashem dictation.

lol, and as I have read that some believe Moses wrote about his death with tears because GOD told him about it, or maybe dictated it? Anyway, yes, thanks again. I believe that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. Not all will see life. There are some that will not be resurrected, or raised from the dead. P.S. It is written by Moses that he knew he was going to die.

 

[YoursTrue]

@Ehav4Ever , this theory is full of holes. In many things, science is very certain. For example that the expansion of the universe happened somewhere around 14.7 billion years ago. Motion is always relative. To a person on Earth, the Earth is moving around the sun, and the sun is moving along with the Milky Way and Milky way is moving out as if it was a point on an expanding balloon (roughly said). Every thing in the universe is moving. Nothing is at rest, not even an electron or a proton. It is a very dynamic universe. I won't discuss each and every point in the images posted by you, that will be a great waste of time. But for science, one should not go to Torath Mosheh but to science books. If they had not done that, there would not have been so many Jewish Nobel prize winners in science. What is better than what the evidence suggests or believing what a two or three thousand year old book says? Do the theists have similar evidence for their beliefs?

I'd like to know how you think scientists know the universe exploded around 14.7 billion years ago.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeah let's be honest. That Inquistion tortored or scared a lot of Jews "in Spain/Portugal" into becoming Catholic.

Other than that I have never met or heard of a Torath Mosheh Jew who became a Catholic. Would you like to mentions some of names of the Jews you are talking about?

Only Jews with questionable backgrounds and no Torah learning/Hebrew at all have become Catholic or even Christian for that matter.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-the-holocaust-survivor-who-chose-jesus-1.6872407
There are others, the idea that once a Jew or once in the genealogical lineage therefore is a Jew, is similar to the doctrine of the 'perpetual virginity' of Mary. (So long...and again -- wishing the best for you...)

 

[YoursTrue]

Actually, the Jewish sources I provided stated it does but even more important than that......drum roll........Mosheh ben-Amram informed all of his students and the entire generation at that time that the written text he gave them, 13 copies in total, totally came from Hashem.

As a Christian, you don't have to beleive us Torath Mosheh Jews on this point. It would make sense that you don't accept Torath Mosheh Jewish sources on this matter no different than you and I don't accept the Nicene Creed. I.e. what I am describing is foreign to the JW concept. I know that and I understand why. By like token the JW concept is completely foreign to Torath Mosheh Jews and strange in various areas - yet any time you state that JW hold by something I simply accept your statement as the JW theology and move on because JW theology doesn't present a question to me.

Thus, I can agree with you as a Christian it is not clear to you how the Torah came about. It is not like modern day Christians descend from family trees where they can idenitify their ancestry with those who received the Torah from Mosheh ben-Amram. Thus, I accept that concept a Moses that exists in Christianity is not aligned with the Mosheh ben-Amram who gave the Torah to Am Yisrael and explained to them how he got along with other details - like how to understand it in the language that he transcribed it in based on Hashem dictation.

If I thought that the Oral Law was given by Almighty God to Moses I would believe that. But I don't. That you do is your choice. Obviously. It is similar to the belief in the trinity. If I thought that God Almighty is three persons yet one God, I'd believe and teach that. (But I don't.) So obviously we (you and I) have differences. And God will decide the outcome of beliefs and worship, as He did when the Israelites were in Israel prior to the destruction of the temple by the Romans in the 1st century. If what others say is in conjunction and agreement with the Written Word of God, I accept it.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Let me start at the beginning of your statement. You say that "Mosheh ben-Amram informed all of his students and the entire generation at that time that the written text he gave them, 13 copies in total, totally came from Hashem." By Mosheh ben-Amram I'm thinking you might mean Moses the son of Amram?

From what I am seeing most likely not since I noticed the Christian image of a Moses normally is something like this.

Whereas the Torath Mosheh view of Mosheh ben-Amram type is something like this.

In short, Mosheh ben-Amram is the one that Hashem publically assigned to Am Yisrael, Mosheh ben-Amram received an Oral Torah from Hashem which is found in various Torath Mosheh texts from the last 2,500+ years, Mosheh ben-Amram was dictated the entire written Torah from Hashem from Beresheeth to Devarim, and Mosheh ben-Amram is the one who gave the Hebrew Torah that was dictated to him by Hashem to Am Yisrael.

If the Moses you are speaking of did not line up with what I listed above then we are definately not talking about the same person. I.e. the Moses you are describing is the Mosheh ben-Amram I am describing.

It's probably better if you speak English for me if you want me to follow at all. Otherwise, you might as well speak in tongues.

Even in English what I would be describing to you would sound foreign to you – because as you mentioned earlier it comes from sources you don’t see as authoritative or valid. Also, I wrote in English above the graphics where the information came from. See what I mean. If that is what speaking in tongues means to you then I guess so.

 

[YoursTrue]

From what I am seeing most likely not since I noticed the Christian image of a Moses normally is something like this.

View attachment 59142

Whereas the Torath Mosheh view of Mosheh ben-Amram type is something like this.

View attachment 59143

In short, Mosheh ben-Amram is the one that Hashem publically assigned to Am Yisrael, Mosheh ben-Amram received an Oral Torah from Hashem which is found in various Torath Mosheh texts from the last 2,500+ years, Mosheh ben-Amram was dictated the entire written Torah from Hashem from Beresheeth to Devarim, and Mosheh ben-Amram is the one who gave the Hebrew Torah that was dictated to him by Hashem to Am Yisrael.

If the Moses you are speaking of did not line up with what I listed above then we are definately not talking about the same person. I.e. the Moses you are describing is the Mosheh ben-Amram I am describing.



Even in English what I would be describing to you would sound foreign to you – because as you mentioned earlier it comes from sources you don’t see as authoritative or valid. Also, I wrote in English above the graphics where the information came from. See what I mean. If that is what speaking in tongues means to you then I guess so.

When I went to college I went to a college in a part of the United States where there were not too many Jews. I roomed with a Jewish roommate. I realize now the administration arranged that, but we more or less got along despite our differing little temperaments. The residents of the college dorm probably knew I was Jewish. (I didn't announce it but word got around.) Perhaps they never met a Jew before, I don't know, I was young and naive. I heard one resident say that she heard Jews had horns. I was a bit astonished but didn't say anything because I didn't know where she was coming from. I learned later that a translation of the Bible translated the rays emanating from Moses head when descending from the mountain were mistranslated as horns. I did not know this until much later.

 

[YoursTrue]

From what I am seeing most likely not since I noticed the Christian image of a Moses normally is something like this.

View attachment 59142

Whereas the Torath Mosheh view of Mosheh ben-Amram type is something like this.

View attachment 59143

In short, Mosheh ben-Amram is the one that Hashem publically assigned to Am Yisrael, Mosheh ben-Amram received an Oral Torah from Hashem which is found in various Torath Mosheh texts from the last 2,500+ years, Mosheh ben-Amram was dictated the entire written Torah from Hashem from Beresheeth to Devarim, and Mosheh ben-Amram is the one who gave the Hebrew Torah that was dictated to him by Hashem to Am Yisrael.

If the Moses you are speaking of did not line up with what I listed above then we are definately not talking about the same person. I.e. the Moses you are describing is the Mosheh ben-Amram I am describing.



Even in English what I would be describing to you would sound foreign to you – because as you mentioned earlier it comes from sources you don’t see as authoritative or valid. Also, I wrote in English above the graphics where the information came from. See what I mean. If that is what speaking in tongues means to you then I guess so.

Let me put it to you this way: speaking in tongues is not something that makes sense -- to me. Biblically or otherwise. It means that one is either speaking gibberish or in a language that I don't understand.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-the-holocaust-survivor-who-chose-jesus-1.6872407

Concerning this article you provided, it actually proves everything I stated earlier. Let's look at what it says about her.

BTW Haaretz is not a Torath Mosheh source of information. You may want to be careful what information you get from them if you are trying to use it in a Torah based way.

There are others, the idea that once a Jew or once in the genealogical lineage therefore is a Jew, is similar to the doctrine of the 'perpetual virginity' of Mary. (So long...and again -- wishing the best for you...)

And every story you will bring will have the same narrative 99.9% of the time. i.e.
Questionable background, pressure from non-Jewish society for being Jewish,
no Torah in her background, does not want to return to the Jewish people = opted out of the Jewish people.

A person can be biologically Jewish and not be considered part of the "people of Israel." No different than how James Joseph Dresnok was born in America to American parents but he eventually defected to North Korea. His defection stripped him most of his rights to be "considered" an American citizen. His sons are also partially "biologically" American. Yet, they were born and raised in North Korea and have embraced being North Korean and are also not considered American citizens.

Being Jewish, according to Torath Mosheh is the same. A person can opt in and also opt out.

 

[YoursTrue]

From what I am seeing most likely not since I noticed the Christian image of a Moses normally is something like this.

View attachment 59142

Whereas the Torath Mosheh view of Mosheh ben-Amram type is something like this.

View attachment 59143

In short, Mosheh ben-Amram is the one that Hashem publically assigned to Am Yisrael, Mosheh ben-Amram received an Oral Torah from Hashem which is found in various Torath Mosheh texts from the last 2,500+ years, Mosheh ben-Amram was dictated the entire written Torah from Hashem from Beresheeth to Devarim, and Mosheh ben-Amram is the one who gave the Hebrew Torah that was dictated to him by Hashem to Am Yisrael.

If the Moses you are speaking of did not line up with what I listed above then we are definately not talking about the same person. I.e. the Moses you are describing is the Mosheh ben-Amram I am describing.



Even in English what I would be describing to you would sound foreign to you – because as you mentioned earlier it comes from sources you don’t see as authoritative or valid. Also, I wrote in English above the graphics where the information came from. See what I mean. If that is what speaking in tongues means to you then I guess so.

Furthermore, if you're going to quote or prove your beliefs in Hebrew, it would be more instructive for you to speak in English to me.

 

[YoursTrue]

Concerning this article you provided, it actually proves everything I stated earlier. Let's look at what it says about her.

View attachment 59144

BTW Haaretz is not a Torath Mosheh source of information. You may want to be careful what information you get from them if you are trying to use it in a Torah based way.



And every story you will bring have the same narrative 99.9% of the time. i.e.
Questionable background, pressure from non-Jewish society for being Jewish,
no Torah in her background, does not want to return to the Jewish people = opted out of the Jewish people.

A person can be biologically Jewish and not be considered part of the "people of Israel." No different than how James Joseph Dresnok was born in America to American parents but he eventually defected to North Korea. His defection stripped him most of his rights to be "considered" an American citizen. His sons are also partially "biologically" American. Yet, they were born and raised in North Korea and have embraced being North Korean and are also not considered American citizens.

Being Jewish, according to Torath Mosheh is the same. A person can opt in and also opt out.

My point is that there are those Jews who survived the holocaust who did not stay with Judaism. Some of them became atheists. Realizing the complexity and hypocrisy of some, the story of the former grand rabbi of Rome is also interesting. Just as Satan told God, a man will do anything to save himself. About the faithful man Job. (more or less I paraphrase...)
Why did the Chief Rabbi of Rome Convert to Catholicism? | Outreach Judaism
(Each to his own...)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Let me put it to you this way: speaking in tongues is not something that makes sense -- to me. Biblically or otherwise. It means that one is either speaking gibberish or in a language that I don't understand.

EXACTLY! Anything I would state to you about the Hebrew text of the Torah, how Torath Mosheh Jews received it, and how the understanding was transmitted fromo the given of the Torah at Mount Sinai would sound, to you, like something that doesn't make sense, gibberish, and like a language you don't understand. This is of course because of your background as a JW and also what described to me earlier. IF I were to discuss these matters with a secular Jew who is still connected to Torah based Jewish family or at least knew Hebrew what I am stating would make sense with perfect clarity even if they don't personally agree.

BTW, the whole Christianity has about speaking in tongues is foreign to Torath Mosheh Jews so - we just aren't concerned with trying to understand the Christian perspective because it isn't relevant to us.

 

[YoursTrue]

EXACTLY! Anything I would state to you about the Hebrew text of the Torah, how Torath Mosheh Jews received, and how the understanding was transmitted fromo the given of the Torah at Mount Sinai would sound, to you, like something that doesn't make sense, gibberish, and like a language you don't understand. This is of course because of your background as a JW and also what described to me earlier. IF I were to discuss these matters with a secular Jew who is still connected to Torah based Jewish family or at least knew Hebrew what I am stating would make sense with perfect clarity even if they don't personally agree.

BTW, the whole Christianity has about speaking in tongues is foreign to Torath Mosheh Jews so - we just aren't concerned with trying to understand the Christian perspective because it isn't relevant to us.

It apparently was a problem among the early Christians, who mistakenly misunderstood what happened when non-Hebrew or Greek speakers met in Jerusalem. If a message cannot be understood or translated -- there is nothing to say.
"...modern-day speaking in tongues is very different from the gift of holy spirit given to Jesus’ early followers. In fact, there is no reliable record of anyone receiving that same miraculous power since the death of the apostles. This is not surprising to Bible readers. Regarding the miraculous gifts, including that of speaking in tongues, the inspired apostle Paul prophesied: “They will cease.” (1 Corinthians 13:8)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010735#h=21:0-23:488

 

[YoursTrue]

EXACTLY! Anything I would state to you about the Hebrew text of the Torah, how Torath Mosheh Jews received, and how the understanding was transmitted fromo the given of the Torah at Mount Sinai would sound, to you, like something that doesn't make sense, gibberish, and like a language you don't understand. This is of course because of your background as a JW and also what described to me earlier. IF I were to discuss these matters with a secular Jew who is still connected to Torah based Jewish family or at least knew Hebrew what I am stating would make sense with perfect clarity even if they don't personally agree.

BTW, the whole Christianity has about speaking in tongues is foreign to Torath Mosheh Jews so - we just aren't concerned with trying to understand the Christian perspective because it isn't relevant to us.

I'm actually not asking you about the Oral Law right now. I'm asking that if you're going to quote something in Hebrew, it's probably best you don't unless you give an English translation.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Furthermore, if you're going to quote or prove your beliefs in Hebrew, it would be more instructive for you to speak in English to me.

We have been there already. The OP was written in English and a lot of other stuff in other threads was in English. I have already stated what the challenge you face is as a JW is in a different area that I already described. Besides, a lot of this is off topic from the OP.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

It apparently was a problem among the early Christians, who mistakenly misunderstood what happened when non-Hebrew or Greek speakers met in Jerusalem. If a message cannot be understood or translated -- there is nothing to say.
"...modern-day speaking in tongues is very different from the gift of holy spirit given to Jesus’ early followers. In fact, there is no reliable record of anyone receiving that same miraculous power since the death of the apostles. This is not surprising to Bible readers. Regarding the miraculous gifts, including that of speaking in tongues, the inspired apostle Paul prophesied: “They will cease.” (1 Corinthians 13:8)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010735#h=21:0-23:488

Don't know. That is for Christians to sort out among yourselves. I don't know of any Jewish based account to the events you reference.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm actually not asking you about the Oral Law right now. I'm asking that if you're going to quote something in Hebrew, it's probably best you don't unless you give an English translation.

As far as Torath Mosheh you can't talk about the Torah w/o talking about the Oral Torah. The written Torah and the oral Torah go hand and hand and Am Yisrael received both.

Again, I quote something in Hebrew, and put notes above or below that should be more than enough. My experience has been that Christians are often not looking for what the Hebrew text states but instead how a translation supports a New Testament concept.

Again, to summerize the answer to your question:

In short, Mosheh ben-Amram is the one that Hashem publically assigned to Am Yisrael, Mosheh ben-Amram received an Oral Torah from Hashem which is found in various Torath Mosheh texts from the last 2,500+ years, Mosheh ben-Amram was dictated the entire written Torah from Hashem from Beresheeth to Devarim, and Mosheh ben-Amram is the one who gave the Hebrew Torah that was dictated to him by Hashem to Am Yisrael.​

If the Moses you are speaking of did not line up with what I listed above then we are definately not talking about the same person. I.e. the Moses you are describing is the Mosheh ben-Amram I am describing.​

 

[Ehav4Ever]

If I thought that the Oral Law was given by Almighty God to Moses I would believe that. But I don't. That you do is your choice. Obviously. It is similar to the belief in the trinity. If I thought that God Almighty is three persons yet one God, I'd believe and teach that. (But I don't.) So obviously we (you and I) have differences. And God will decide the outcome of beliefs and worship, as He did when the Israelites were in Israel prior to the destruction of the temple by the Romans in the 1st century. If what others say is in conjunction and agreement with the Written Word of God, I accept it.

Thus, as I mentioned before. We are not talking about the same things, especially if you think the Oral Torah is compariable to the 100% Christian in origin trinity. The trinity is a theology that existed in Christianity prior to the emergance of the JW movement, so as a Christian irregardless of how you feel about it - that is your baggage to carry since it predated the JW movement by almost 1,600 years.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'd like to know how you think scientists know the universe exploded around 14.7 billion years ago.

See the below. Enjoy.

 

[YoursTrue]

Thus, as I mentioned before. We are not talking about the same things, especially if you think the Oral Torah is compariable to the 100% Christian in origin trinity. The trinity is a theology that existed in Christianity prior to the emergance of the JW movement, so as a Christian irregardless of how you feel about it - that is your baggage to carry since it predated the JW movement by almost 1,600 years.

By the way, I'm not sure what you mean by your comparisons between the trinity and the oral tradition. Deuteronomy 12:32 - "Every word that I am commanding you is what you should be careful to do. You must not add to it nor take away from it."