A Universe from Nothing?

[Polymath257]

But musn't minds first be conscious in order to function as minds?

No. All that it takes to be a mind is reactivity. Consciousness requires it 'being like' something. That is a more advanced thing.

 

[Polymath257]

...along with information and consciousness. In fact, food is information, isn't it?

No, consciousness is clearly NOT required for life. For example, a jellyfish is alive, but almost certainly not conscious. A bacterium is alive, but certainly not conscious.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I'm reading some this and I'm greatly impressed by the ultimate ingnorance exressed here.
Beyond reality lies foolishness, insanity is next !
Guess who is right !

Do you claim to know the extent of reality?

 

[gnostic]

You have it backwards. It is not that the universe is being endowed with human intelligence, but that human intelligence is a direct reflection of the intelligence of the universe. The universe came first, and out of an intelligent universe came intelligent life.

No.

You are the one who is projecting your concept and belief of consciousness and intelligence on to the universe.

You are doing exactly what primitive man, not understanding nature, thought the sun, moon, sky, trees, water, etc, were spirits and gods, and thought they can appease them with offerings no sacrifices.

You are just as superstitious as these people, and you are no different from the various forms of creationism.

Just they put human qualities on these non-human entities or objects with human characteristics, you do exactly the same things with consciousness and intelligence, except that you do it with the universe.

It is the same differ.

You have shown no evidences that the universe is consciousness or self-aware, let alone intelligent.

And please don't remind me of the quantum physicist Amit Goswami, one of the quantum mystic quacks.

Like Michael Behe, Goswami misused quantum physics by mixing it with his religion, just as Behe disgraced himself getting involved with the pseudoscience Discovery Institute to sprout the non-scientific Intelligent Design.

 

[godnotgod]

Well, it is causally connected to its origin. But it isn't the information that we consume with food.

/E: Consciousness isn't required of our food.

Food is information to the body, which knows how to process it.

 

[godnotgod]

No. All that it takes to be a mind is reactivity. Consciousness requires it 'being like' something. That is a more advanced thing.

If reactivity is all that is required, then mind is unnecessary. However, what you call 'reactivity' in the sense of being an automatic response, still requires consciousness for the initial programming.

Are you saying that minds can be unconscious?

 

[godnotgod]

No.

You are the one who is projecting your concept and belief of consciousness and intelligence on to the universe.

You are doing exactly what primitive man, not understanding nature, thought the sun, moon, sky, trees, water, etc, were spirits and gods, and thought they can appease them with offerings no sacrifices.

You are just as superstitious as these people, and you are no different from the various forms of creationism.

Just they put human qualities on these non-human entities or objects with human characteristics, you do exactly the same things with consciousness and intelligence, except that you do it with the universe.

It is the same differ.

You have shown no evidences that the universe is consciousness or self-aware, let alone intelligent.

.

While projection is real for many people, the fact remains: you and I are in no way separate from the universe. IOW, the universe is not an object 'out there'. What you are, in actuality, is a total activity of the entire universe, in exactly the same way that a wave is a total action of the ocean. Do you deny that?

There is no difference between your consciousness and that of the universe. If there is, show me the demarcation point which separates the two. You can't, because there is none, except for your illusory self-view which thinks itself separate.

You persist with your silly anthropomorphic notions. So tell me, then, as long as you think I am projecting onto the universe: which human characteristics am I superimposing upon the universe?

 

[godnotgod]

And please don't remind me of the quantum physicist Amit Goswami, one of the quantum mystic quacks.

Like Michael Behe, Goswami misused quantum physics by mixing it with his religion, just as Behe disgraced himself getting involved with the pseudoscience Discovery Institute to sprout the non-scientific Intelligent Design.

You really have a problem listening, don't you?

Repeat: The science that Goswami employed in the brain nonlocality experiment I cited is STANDARD SCIENCE! It has nothing to do with what you consider to be woo woo, pseudoscience, or quantum mysticism. Why do you persist in bringing that up? I am not referring to it or using it to qualify the information I have posted. The experiment was set up in the standard scientific manner. So are you going to continue to harp on woo woo, when woo woo has nothing to do with what I said?

 

[godnotgod]

No, consciousness is clearly NOT required for life. For example, a jellyfish is alive, but almost certainly not conscious. A bacterium is alive, but certainly not conscious.

You don't know that, so stop already. How do you know that consciousness is not responsible for the evolution of jellyfish and bacterium; that it is consciousness behind the manifestation of the entire universe, which includes YOU?

 

[Polymath257]

While projection is real for many people, the fact remains: you and I are in no way separate from the universe. IOW, the universe is not an object 'out there'. What you are, in actuality, is a total activity of the entire universe, in exactly the same way that a wave is a total action of the ocean. Do you deny that?

Yes, on both accounts. I am not a 'total activity' of the entire universe. In fact, I am here on the planet Earth and not on the moon, for example.

Also, waves are NOT the 'total action' of the entire ocean. They can be, and often are, quite limited in scope.

There is no difference between your consciousness and that of the universe. If there is, show me the demarcation point which separates the two. You can't, because there is none, except for your illusory self-view which thinks itself separate.

We have gone over this multiple times. My skull is the limit of my consciousness. My brain is contained in my skull and consciousness is a process in the brain.

You persist with your silly anthropomorphic notions. So tell me, then, as long as you think I am projecting onto the universe: which human characteristics am I superimposing upon the universe?

The most obvious one is consciousness.

 

[Polymath257]

You don't know that, so stop already. How do you know that consciousness is not responsible for the evolution of jellyfish and bacterium; that it is consciousness behind the manifestation of the entire universe, which includes YOU?

Irrelevant. The jellyfish and the bacterium are alive and not conscious. Even *if* a conscious being made them (highly unlikely), they are still alive and non-conscious.

 

[Polymath257]

If reactivity is all that is required, then mind is unnecessary. However, what you call 'reactivity' in the sense of being an automatic response, still requires consciousness for the initial programming.

Again, I disagree. No programming is required.

Are you saying that minds can be unconscious?

Of course. Every night I sleep without a dream, I have a mind that is not conscious.

 

[Polymath257]

Food is information to the body, which knows how to process it.

No, food is NOT information. It is something that provides chemical energy. That is NOT the same as information. And our bodies process the food chemically, not as an information source (like, for example, we process light from our eyes).

 

[godnotgod]

No, food is NOT information. It is something that provides chemical energy. That is NOT the same as information. And our bodies process the food chemically, not as an information source (like, for example, we process light from our eyes).

Of course food is information to the body. The body has to know how to process the various proteins, fats, carbs, etc. IOW, the body has to know how to 'read' the information in those components so it can properly process them. This should be pretty obvious to you. Processing food chemically is the reading and processing of information.

 

[gnostic]

While projection is real for many people, the fact remains: you and I are in no way separate from the universe.

Straw man.

I have never said anything about us being separate from the universe.

Stop making things up, things that I didn't say or write.

You like ben, you are making up things I didn't say. In the older replies he kept saying that I believe in universe made from nothing, no matter how many times that I have to tell that I believe in no such things.

All I am saying that the universe isn't conscious. It doesn't require consciousness to exist or to function. But what I am saying that you are giving the universe human characteristics, by saying the universe is conscious or intelligent, thus you are anthropomorphising the universe.

For you to say I got it backward, then you need to demonstrate the universe is conscious or intelligent.

 

[gnostic]

Of course food is information to the body. The body has to know how to process the various proteins, fats, carbs, etc. IOW, the body has to know how to 'read' the information in those components so it can properly process them. This should be pretty obvious to you. Processing food chemically is the reading and processing of information.

This is utterly senseless and baseless.

When earlier man in the Palaeolithic period hunt whatever games they can kill and gather whatever edible roots, tubes, nuts or fruit they could find, their bodies don't process information about carbohydrates, proteins, fat, etc.

They eat what they can or else they starve. However, since it was colder then, even though ice sheets might not cover the regions they inhabited, fat was needed as much as proteins, because fat help with their insulating their bodies from colder climate.

The body processes the food, eg digestion, but the entire process is done unconsciously. The person is conscious of eating the food and when he needs to poop it out, everything else his body do in between, don't require his conscious action.

 

[gnostic]

You really have a problem listening, don't you?

Repeat: The science that Goswami employed in the brain nonlocality experiment I cited is STANDARD SCIENCE! It has nothing to do with what you consider to be woo woo, pseudoscience, or quantum mysticism. Why do you persist in bringing that up? I am not referring to it or using it to qualify the information I have posted. The experiment was set up in the standard scientific manner. So are you going to continue to harp on woo woo, when woo woo has nothing to do with what I said?

His books are pseudoscience garbages, that's why.

 

[gnostic]

You persist with your silly anthropomorphic notions. So tell me, then, as long as you think I am projecting onto the universe: which human characteristics am I superimposing upon the universe?

1. Consciousness.
2. Intelligence.

And I am not sure if you follow Hinduism or Buddhism, because I sometimes confuse your posts with Ben.

The "soul" would be another human characteristics you have superimposed on the universe, BUT ONLY IF YOU BELIEVE IN BRAHMAN, the "Cosmic Consciousness" or "Cosmic Soul".

If I am wrong about this assumption about you in regarding to Brahman, then I am sorry, and will take it back.

 

[Polymath257]

Of course food is information to the body. The body has to know how to process the various proteins, fats, carbs, etc. IOW, the body has to know how to 'read' the information in those components so it can properly process them. This should be pretty obvious to you. Processing food chemically is the reading and processing of information.

This is just strangely wrong.

For example, there is not *knowledge* involved when vineagar and baking soda react to give off carbon dioxide. That is simply how the chemicals interact. No consciousness required.

Our don't have to 'know' how to process food. If they make the digestive chemicals, they *will* digest the food. The body doesn't 'read' the food coming in as much as 'read' the simple fact that it exists and produces the chemicals to digest.

The value of the food to the body isn't in the information, but in the chemical nature of the food. It is how the chemicals in the food interact in the body that is important, not where the food came from.

 

[`mud]

hey Ben,
Do I know `reality` ? No I don't ? Do you know ?
`reality` is `now` that just rushed backward into the void.
But don't fret, here comes another one !
Reality doesn't really exist,
it's just imagination !