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A Universe from Nothing?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Emergent Theory only a hypothesis; not even a scientific theory.

Note the qualifier: 'higher', as in 'higher than Reason, Logic, or Analysis'. Therefore cannot be proven via such means.


And that is enough for me to say it doesn't exist.

Not something resident in any of those boxes, and yet, is exactly what allows those boxes to function. Can only be directly experienced, without thought. You are urged to go see for yourself, however, for perfect verification beyond any doubt, just as the skeptical prisoners in Plato's Cave would have to go see The Sun for themselves.

But the experience would *be* a detection! You just contradicted yourself! BTW, I think Plato's cave to be the single biggest philosophical mistake ever made.

Logic does not necessarily follow; detectable consciousness may not be the case, just as TV signals are not detectable without the proper receptors, and yet, the images in the TV are present. IOW, the consciousness present on the level you describe may be non-local.

Maybe, could be, might happen. Any actual evidence? Enough to contradict the existing evidence to the contrary?

Explain, please.

Consciousness is a result of certain complex neural networks. It is a physical process (like pressure or temperature) and not a non-physical thing. If we could know all the physical aspects of a situation, we would also be able to conclude the conscious aspects.

Tell me: what is the kind of mind or consciousness you would be employing in order to do that? IOW, that which is detecting the flawed senses would itself have to be without flaw, is that correct?

No, it would not. That is sort of the point. We all make mistakes, so ALL our ideas and conclusions have to be tested and pushed to the limits to see where they fail. We detect when the senses fail because they deliver contradictory information. Any optical illusion is an example. I assume you have seen an optical illusion.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
You call something "only a hypothesis; not even a scientific theory." I'm asking: What do you call your own claims?

I don't call them hypothesis or theory or even truth. Why? Because these are all products of thought, are they not? What I am describing is the direct seeing into the nature of things, without thought. It has nothing to do with a personal view; in fact, it is impersonal in nature, and by that I mean dispassionate. And it is non-dual. Does that help?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't call them hypothesis or theory or even truth. Why? Because these are all products of thought, are they not? What I am describing is the direct seeing into the nature of things, without thought. It has nothing to do with a personal view; in fact, it is impersonal in nature, and by that I mean dispassionate. And it is non-dual. Does that help?

Nope. It just shows you have a fantasy. 'No thought' means ignorance. it is the opposite of knowledge and understanding.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
And that is enough for me to say it doesn't exist.

Why? Are Reason and Logic the only valid approaches to knowledge? If that is the case, how do rationally explain some of the inexplicable findings of Quantum Physics which defy Logic and Reason?


But the experience would *be* a detection! You just contradicted yourself! BTW, I think Plato's cave to be the single biggest philosophical mistake ever made.

Yes, the experience is a detection, but I don't follow your logic: why is it a contradiction? What is it contradicting?

Understand I am only extracting a piece of Plato's Cave to illustrate my point, which is simply that, for the other prisoners to verify what the escaped prisoner is saying, they need to go outside the cave to see for themselves via direct experience. OK?


Maybe, could be, might happen. Any actual evidence? Enough to contradict the existing evidence to the contrary?

The 'evidence' you have is equivalent to coming to the conclusion that the images on the TV screen originate from the TV set.

I have posted several times both a video and a paper proving the nonlocal signal-less and instantaneous communication between two brains.

Consciousness is a result of certain complex neural networks. It is a physical process (like pressure or temperature) and not a non-physical thing. If we could know all the physical aspects of a situation, we would also be able to conclude the conscious aspects.

That consciousness emerges (Emergent Theory, again) from the physical brain is just an idea being tossed around, and is NOT, as the name implies, an authentic and bona fide scientific theory. We have evidence that higher consciousness as reached during meditation of long term meditators, actually grows thicker cerebral cortexes. IOW, 'complex neural networks' are the result of consciousness, and not as you propose. We also know that brain function is re-ordered via meditation; it functions more efficiently and has many other positive aspects.

No, it would not. That is sort of the point. We all make mistakes, so ALL our ideas and conclusions have to be tested and pushed to the limits to see where they fail. We detect when the senses fail because they deliver contradictory information. Any optical illusion is an example. I assume you have seen an optical illusion.

Yes, of course, but flawed sensory perception and logic are understood against some background insight that shows up the flaws. What is that background that is without flaw that knows? IOW, there is a final assessment that is made via some kind of clear understanding.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
Nope. It just shows you have a fantasy. 'No thought' means ignorance. it is the opposite of knowledge and understanding.

But I would say your fantasy is that thought is the basis for knowledge and insight, galvanized by the fact that behavior can be predicted, such as the point at which water boils, for example. But all the prediction in the world, no matter how accurate, says nothing about the nature of Reality. It cannot tell us exactly what the universe actually IS. Today, we have at least 10 scientific fantasies about how the universe is made up, with no consensus.

A fantasy is the result of thought. But what I have told you is that the view I describe is without thought, so therefore, cannot be a fantasy. It is not about thought, but about seeing, without thought. Ignorance is also the product of erroneous thought. Therfore, seeing without thought cannot be ignorance. And, it is also impersonal, because since there is no thought involved, any idea of self is not present. There is no 'I' involved which sees; there is only pure seeing itself. Do you see what I am talking about, or not?
 

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
I don't call them hypothesis or theory or even truth.

Then what does it matter if your opponents claims aren't hypotheses or scientific theories like you claim? If they have to take your claims as given, doesn't that by extension mean you also have to take theirs? You dismiss an argument by saying that it's "only a hypothesis; not even a scientific theory." So, do we also get to dismiss your entire argument for the VERY same reason?

Because right now it sure looks a lot like you selling snake oil and demanding others substantiate their claims.

Your argument is not science based. It doesn't matter one bit if your opponents arguments aren't hypotheses or scientific theories. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - Hitchens.

TLDR:
From your posts it really looks like you hold your sensory perceptions more valid than actual physical evidence. Go right ahead. I'm not stopping you. But at least be honest and debate points with logic instead of trying to shoot down evidence. You don't even have evidence and demand we take your trash seriously.

I think the last few pages have shown that the only way you're going to beat either a logic or evidence based argument is by crying to the mods that others are "disturbing" a thread you hijacked.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Why? Are Reason and Logic the only valid approaches to knowledge? If that is the case, how do rationally explain some of the inexplicable findings of Quantum Physics which defy Logic and Reason?


What makes you think they defy logic and reason? For that matter, what makes you think they are inexplicable? Quantum Mechanics itself provides the logic, the reason,and the explanations.

Now, Quantum Mechanics *is* quite different from *Classical* mechanics, and you cannot explain QM in terms of classical concepts. But we don't expect to explain the better descriptions in terms of the poorer ones.

Yes, the experience is a detection, but I don't follow your logic: why is it a contradiction? What is it contradicting?

You said it could not be detected.


Understand I am only extracting a piece of Plato's Cave to illustrate my point, which is simply that, for the other prisoners to verify what the escaped prisoner is saying, they need to go outside the cave to see for themselves via direct experience. OK?

Or to provide other ways of detecting from within the cave.


The 'evidence' you have is equivalent to coming to the conclusion that the images on the TV screen originate from the TV set.
I have posted several times both a video and a paper proving the nonlocal signal-less and instantaneous communication between two brains.


And rebuttals have been given. Bad statistics don't produce good science.


That consciousness emerges (Emergent Theory, again) from the physical brain is just an idea being tossed around, and is NOT, as the name implies, an authentic and bona fide scientific theory. We have evidence that higher consciousness as reached during meditation of long term meditators, actually grows thicker cerebral cortexes. IOW, 'complex neural networks' are the result of consciousness, and not as you propose. We also know that brain function is re-ordered via meditation; it functions more efficiently and has many other positive aspects.

Of course it is a bona fide theory! It is backed up by mounds of evidence and the daily experience of people going to sleep and going under anesthesia.


Yes, of course, but flawed sensory perception and logic are understood against some background insight that shows up the flaws. What is that background that is without flaw that knows? IOW, there is a final assessment that is made via some kind of clear understanding.

Wrong. Again, there is comparison of the data, the formulation of hypotheses, and the testing of those hypotheses.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
What I am describing is the direct seeing into the nature of things, without thought. It has nothing to do with a personal view; in fact, it is impersonal in nature, and by that I mean dispassionate. And it is non-dual. Does that help?
What you are describing is merely your personal view...and a deluded one at that.

And it is quite obvious that you have not achieve this transcendent state, because your ego is wider than the barn doors.

And you keep referring to what you are doing to be non-dual, and everyone else to be dual mind.

To me, both dual vs non-dual consciousnesses, are nothing more than philosophical claptrap.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Then what does it matter if your opponents claims aren't hypotheses or scientific theories like you claim? If they have to take your claims as given, doesn't that by extension mean you also have to take theirs? You dismiss an argument by saying that it's "only a hypothesis; not even a scientific theory." So, do we also get to dismiss your entire argument for the VERY same reason?

Because right now it sure looks a lot like you selling snake oil and demanding others substantiate their claims.

Your argument is not science based. It doesn't matter one bit if your opponents arguments aren't hypotheses or scientific theories. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - Hitchens.

TLDR:
From your posts it really looks like you hold your sensory perceptions more valid than actual physical evidence. Go right ahead. I'm not stopping you. But at least be honest and debate points with logic instead of trying to shoot down evidence. You don't even have evidence and demand we take your trash seriously.

I think the last few pages have shown that the only way you're going to beat either a logic or evidence based argument is by crying to the mods that others are "disturbing" a thread you hijacked.

However, there is evidence in many forms. That the universe is finite in age, and is was progressively smaller in the past than it is now. These evidences and more lead to the conclusion that at one time the universe was infinitely small.
There is evidence that mass and energy are one and the same.
There is mathematical evidence that in the quantum domain that particles can form in vacuum bubbles. That evidence goes on to prove that if one of those particles is annihilated the other would inflate.

So Hitchin's frightening (to believers in god magic) statement is not relevant because evidence exists.

What doesn't exist, or more precisely, what is not known is the pre start parameters.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Emergent Theory only a hypothesis; not even a scientific theory.

Note the qualifier: 'higher', as in 'higher than Reason, Logic, or Analysis'. Therefore cannot be proven via such means. Not something resident in any of those boxes, and yet, is exactly what allows those boxes to function. Can only be directly experienced, without thought. You are urged to go see for yourself, however, for perfect verification beyond any doubt, just as the skeptical prisoners in Plato's Cave would have to go see The Sun for themselves.

What do you think evidences are?

Evidence is something that can be experienced. Evidence is something that can be observed, detected, measured, tested.

Empirical evidences mean having more than one evidence, to verify and validate if the hypothesis or theory is true, OR refute or debunk them if it is false.

You are contradicting yourself.

You say that what you do is direct experience and nonlocal, and so on, but whenever someone present you with explanation plus evidences, you dismiss it, as if it is not direct enough.

I have only seen evidences that consciousness required a brain and any one or number of sensory organs (eg eyes, ears, nose, tongue, etc).

Do you remember my example, where I told you I have worked at rehabilitation centre, where some of the residents/patients suffered from brain damages, due to the trauma of car accidents?

When their brains are impaired, so are their consciousness impaired. For instance, a comatose person or unconscious one.

There are medicine and illegal substances (drugs) that can also affect a person's consciousness.

What I haven't seen is a person having or reaching higher consciousness. And what I haven't seen the universe being "conscious".

You say that reality can only be experienced directly and nonlocal, but I say that your whole nonlocal and non-dual perception, or "higher consciousness" are nothing more than your deluded fantasy, where you try to twist reality to fit in with your baseless concept.

If I am sounding harsh, is because I am very blunt person, who is brutally frank, and I cannot change that.

You are right, emergent theory isn't a scientific theory. It isn't even a scientific hypothesis.

A hypothesis in science, is not merely guesswork or speculation. Before a formulation of any new hypothesis, the hypothesis come from the idea. But that idea don't come nowhere, but just the mind.

No, the idea, come from preliminary observation. When a scientist start formulating his hypothesis, he (or she) is trying to explain the preliminary observed phenomena, and then make predictions.

So a hypothesis comprised of explanation and prediction(s). And those predictions are use to gauge whether the explanations are correct or not, and the only way to do that is to determine is the hypothesis is falsifiable or not, and to test the hypothesis' predictions, through evidences or experiments. Hence the testing performed is one of the those observations, a mean of refuting or verifying the hypothesis.

In another word, these tests, experiments and evidences are mean of "to experience".

Any hypothesis that is untestable, are considered pseudoscience.

Your emergent theory regarding to "Higher Consciousness" - whether it be your transcendent self or consciousness of the universe - doesn't even fit the bill of hypothesis.

A scientific theory is well-tested or substantiated theory. A hypothesis is a "proposed" new (or at the very least updated) theory that has to be falsifiable and testable.

I actually agree with you that "reason" and "logic" alone, is not enough to prove what is real.

The experience of what is real comes from the observation - whether it be evidences or though experiments - and that's how something can be experienced dispassionately or impartially...it doesn't come from your "direct experience" though meditation.

Your so-called "direct experience" is from being impartial, dispassionate or objective.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
So, in effect, one could say that the universe is playing with itself. Good to know.

Yes indeed! Last I heard, the universe is providing free lessons. You might do well to avail thyself. Remember what Shakespeare said, now: "All this world is but a play; be thou the joyful player":p:D

Ah, such joy! Run along, now...
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Then what does it matter if your opponents claims aren't hypotheses or scientific theories like you claim?

Simply because proponents of 'Emergent Theory' are labeling it a 'theory', when it does not qualify as such. Hypotheses and theories are the products of thought. I have told you that my source is not the product of thought, and therefore, cannot be a hypothesis or theory. But beyond that, the direction that scientific theories travel in is to ultimately define reality, but because of the very methodologies of science, namely dissection and reduction, that becomes impossible. What they are describing are characteristics and behavior in terms of the ability to make predictions, but these descriptions are not what Reality is in actuality. For the most part, science works because the phenomena they are observing has physical characteristics, and so can be weighed, measured, etc. But consciousness has no physical component, even though it is thought to be the product of electro-chemical reactions. Consciousness itself cannot be measured, weighed, etc, as material components can, let alone that it's behavior can be predicted. The 'hard question' of consciousness is easily circumvented by the materialists by simply calling it the electro-chemical reactions themselves. Nice. Square pet, meet round hole.



If they have to take your claims as given, doesn't that by extension mean you also have to take theirs? You dismiss an argument by saying that it's "only a hypothesis; not even a scientific theory." So, do we also get to dismiss your entire argument for the VERY same reason?[/QUOTE]

No, you can't because I am not making any such claim. But I most certainly can dismiss theirs since they make such claims, when they are not what they claim them to be. And no, I am not saying anyone must accept my claims as given at all. I have never said that. If I say to you: 'Look! The frog is jumping into the pond!", and if you immediately look, you will see what I see. But if instead you focus on who is making the statement, and say: "What credentials do you have to make such a claim?", or "Show me your evidence", you will have missed the experience. And so if I say, for example: "there exists a higher state of conscious experience than the one you have been conditioned with, and which illuminates your view so as to place it in the correct context", you will knee-jerk demand factual evidence, failing to have listened to what has been said to you, namely, that the higher state I am pointing to must necessarily be one beyond the limitations of your conditioned view; that is to say, beyond the trappings of the rational mind.

Because right now it sure looks a lot like you selling snake oil and demanding others substantiate their claims.

You cannot approach this question from the POV of parity. This is a case of apples and oranges. I can demand that others substantiate their claims simply because they say their claims can be substantiate via factual evidence. That's fine. No problem. But there is no factual evidence for what I am pointing out. Having said that, you can easily verify my claim by your own direct experience. And that is exactly what mystics have been doing throughout the centuries, independent of one another, and in different times and locations.

Your argument is not science based. It doesn't matter one bit if your opponents arguments aren't hypotheses or scientific theories. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - Hitchens.


Of course he means 'factual evidence', which, again, is non-existent for states of higher consciousness. There is no other way for someone on the outside looking in to verify the experience other than via his own direct experience. A bird raised in captivity does not know what the freedom of flight is, even if it is able to see birds in flight, until the moment it begins to fly itself.

[/QUOTE]TLDR:
From your posts it really looks like you hold your sensory perceptions more valid than actual physical evidence. Go right ahead. I'm not stopping you. But at least be honest and debate points with logic instead of trying to shoot down evidence. You don't even have evidence and demand we take your trash seriously.
.[/QUOTE]

I have never shot down evidence. Mystics wholeheartedly embrace science, but science does not reciprocate. But I do reject the notion that just because images appear on a TV screen, it does not mean that those images originate from the TV set. If I charge a battery and insert it into a battery operated device, and then demonstrate it to a primitive, he would think the energy for the device originated from within the device. He might even detect its source as coming from the battery. And to further prove his hypothesis, he would remove and/or destroy the battery, noting that the device no longer functioned, convinced that he has proven the source of the energy for the device to be a local one, when, in fact, it is non-local, as the battery must be recharged from an external source. You say I have no evidence, but you just ignore or dismiss as insignificant or as unqualified the evidence I have already presented which proves non local communication of brains.

PS: And did I mention that higher consciousness is transcendent of perceptual reality? We call such experience 'Ultimate Reality'.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
I have never shot down evidence.
You have shot down the evidences that people with head trauma and brain damage have their consciousness affected or impaired.

And yet you expect everyone to accept your conflated view that consciousness is not part the process of the physical brain, without providing a single shred of evidence.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Of course he means 'factual evidence', which, again, is non-existent for states of higher consciousness.
There you go again.

You are contradicting yourself again.

You say that empirical evidences that support facts are not real.

And yet you liken the "Higher Consciousness with Plato's cave scenario.

How does the Plato's cave analogy trump factual evidences?

No analogy, no matter how logical or realistic they may be, any analogy would never trump any fact or any evidence.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
There you go again.

You are contradicting yourself again.

You say that empirical evidences that support facts are not real.

And yet you liken the "Higher Consciousness with Plato's cave scenario.

How does the Plato's cave analogy trump factual evidences?

No analogy, no matter how logical or realistic they may be, any analogy would never trump any fact or any evidence.

Gnostic, what on earth are you talking about? Why do you think my intention is to trump factual evidence at all? I accept factual evidence as description of reality only, but not as the true nature of Reality.

You don't understand: I am using the example of Plato's Cave to illustrate the fact that, in order for the skeptical prisoners, who have never seen The Sun, to verify what the escaped prisoner is claiming, they would have to go see for themselves. In the same manner, the experience of higher consciousness cannot be verified via factual knowledge, because it is outside of the spheres of Reason, Logic, and Analysis. The only way one can verify that the claim is authentic is for one, like the prisoners in Plato's Cave, to go and see for themselves. This, anyone can do, which is the reason why the Buddha stated that all sentient beings have Buddha nature. Jesus said much the same thing when he pointed to 'the kingdom of God within', meaning in all men.

I never said that 'empirical evidences that support facts are not real'. What I said is that factual evidence is non-existent as proof for the authenticity of higher consciousness. It's authenticity can only be verified via one's direct experience.

You suddenly trip and fall into a cold mountain lake. You immediately know the water to be cold before the mind can formulate the thought that it is cold. Your direct conscious experience, without thought, is verification that the water is cold. It is only immediately afterwards that one thinks about the water being cold. Thought takes time, and by the time the mind realizes what has occurred, the event is over. It's just that it happens so quickly, one cannot separate the actual event from the thought of the event. And this is exactly how concepts about reality become confused with reality itself.

Concepts about reality should be understood within the context of reality, and not the other way around, as most people have it.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
You have shot down the evidences that people with head trauma and brain damage have their consciousness affected or impaired.

And yet you expect everyone to accept your conflated view that consciousness is not part the process of the physical brain, without providing a single shred of evidence.

If your TV set no longer functions, it does not necessarily mean that the TV signal originated from within the TV set.

In contrast to what you said about brain damage, there are cases of people who have lived their entire lives without most, or a large part of their brain missing, and in one case, a man with virtually no brain tissue held an advanced math degree:

http://rifters.com/real/articles/Oliveira-et-al-2012-RevisitingHydrocephalus.pdf
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If your TV set no longer functions, it does not necessarily mean that the TV signal originated from within the TV set.
I have never once stated that TV signals come from a TV set.

As I have said a number of times there are no communication between two TV sets. That's because the signals is never broadcasted by any TV set.

The signals only come from the TV broadcaster.

But that's beside the point, because TV is not living human brain, and there are no signals from the brain being transfer from great distance.

What you are claiming is pseudoscience and a myth.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I have never once stated that TV signals come from a TV set.

As I have said a number of times there are no communication between two TV sets. That's because the signals is never broadcasted by any TV set.

The signals only come from the TV broadcaster.

But that's beside the point, because TV is not living human brain, and there are no signals from the brain being transfer from great distance.

What you are claiming is pseudoscience and a myth.

Gnostic, again, you misunderstand.

TV signals are just an ANALOGY; a METAPHOR, for brain and consciousness.

Don't you remember the video and paper I posted describing the scientific experiment for non-local communication between two human brains? It's been proven.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
What makes you think they defy logic and reason? For that matter, what makes you think they are inexplicable? Quantum Mechanics itself provides the logic, the reason,and the explanations.

Now, Quantum Mechanics *is* quite different from *Classical* mechanics, and you cannot explain QM in terms of classical concepts. But we don't expect to explain the better descriptions in terms of the poorer ones.

Ordinary reasoning and logic do not understand, for example, the Quantum Physics concept of the 'superposition of possibilities', as the ordinary conditioned mentality is still thinking in materialist terms.

You said it could not be detected.

Right. Higher Consciousness cannot be detected via Logic, Reason, or Analysis, but is itself the detection and apprehension of the true nature of Reality.

Or to provide other ways of detecting from within the cave.

Why not just go outside and take a look as the escaped prisoner did?

And rebuttals have been given. Bad statistics don't produce good science.

Nonlocal communication was demonstrated 25% of the time. How is that a
'bad' statistic? How is the fact that, when the two EEG patterns were superimposed one upon the other, they pretty much matched up?

Here's more recent information:

https://jcer.com/index.php/jcj/article/viewFile/282/310


Of course it is a bona fide theory! It is backed up by mounds of evidence and the daily experience of people going to sleep and going under anesthesia.
Wrong. Again, there is comparison of the data, the formulation of hypotheses, and the testing of those hypotheses.

So at which point do complex electro-chemical reactions become fully functional consciousness?
 
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