A Very Simple Question For Creationists

[shmogie]

There is 3000 years of known human life. That leaves less than 3000 years for EVERYTHING to have happened. That is crazy! It just is!

A fact that neither you or I can refute, you nor I were there. So, by some standards and evidence it seems crazy. To others, by standards and evidence, it seems perfectly acceptable. Calling someone sub human because of this is crazy too.

 

[savagewind]

A fact that neither you or I can refute, you nor I were there. So, by some standards and evidence it seems crazy. To others, by standards and evidence, it seems perfectly acceptable. Calling someone sub human because of this is crazy too.

Oh. Interesting. Did you really perceive that I said SUB-human? Well, I didn't say that.

How do you know I didn't mean above human?

 

[Skwim]

Well, if you define two animals as two different species because the two of them can't produce fertile offspring, then we have already observed that speciation in dog breeds, many of which can't procreate with each other without human assistance.

But I don't define it that way. I go along with Ernst Mayr's definition.

"species are groups of interbreeding natural populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups."
​

In any case I'm curious as to what two breeds of dogs have sperm and eggs so incompatible that they won't "produce fertile offspring.

Now let me ask you a simple question. Let us say creationists wholeheartedly accept evolution, that still doesn't prove that God didn't create the universe 5777 years ago.

No it doesn't, but so what? Biological evolution, which is the kind of evolution we're talking about, has nothing to do with the creation of the universe.

Right, even if you prove evolution beyond a shadow of a doubt, a die hard creationist will just say, okay all life has evolved since the beginning of time 5777 years ago. So proving evolution doesn't disprove creation.

But I'm not addressing creation, but creationism, the kind of creationism that sits in opposition to biological evolution; the subject of the Evolution Vs. Creationism forum here.


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[Jose Fly]

Evolution could not have happened without constant divine intervention.

That raises an interesting issue. If God really was directing evolution behind the scenes as it were, doesn't that therefore mean God deliberately and intentionally created (via evolution) the smallpox virus, the ebola virus, the malaria parasite, and all the other pathogens that have caused countless death and suffering?

 

[Jose Fly]

science shows macroevolution is not possible.

It does? Any actual substance behind that rather bold assertion?

 

[Skwim]

Microevolution = natural selection, so we're in agreement for the most part.

To answer your question, science shows macroevolution is not possible.

Of course! Why didn't I think of that?

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[Jose Fly]

The evidence demonstrates this does not happen. "The data now gathered from some 100 years of mutation research in general and 70 years of mutation breeding in particular enable scientists to draw conclusions regarding the ability of mutations to produce new species. After examining the evidence, Lönnig concluded: “Mutations cannot transform an original species [of plant or animal] into an entirely new one. This conclusion agrees with all the experiences and results of mutation research of the 20th century taken together as well as with the laws of probability. Thus, the law of recurrent variation implies that genetically properly defined species have real boundaries that cannot be abolished or transgressed by accidental mutations.” (g9/06)

Yet the evolution of new species has been repeatedly observed and documented.

Just a hint.....in science, data beats quotes every single time.

 

[Skwim]

That is a thoughtful and reasonable question, thank you.

Because there are too many changes that need to happen to systems in simultaneity as to be practical,

No one is saying they happen at the same time.

there are new species of dogs all the time--

Really! Care to name a few? Or just two?

but regarding macro-changes where species would cross over families.

This isn't macroevolution. And there's no such a thing as crossing over families. New species always stay within the same family, and even within the same genus.

I'll answer you Socratically:

Name ten things that must change besides gills to lungs or adding lungs to gills for sea creatures to become land creatures!

I don't know. Now, does my lack of knowledge invalidate such a process? How about my lack of knowledge of why Trump convinced so many people to vote for him. Does this invalidate his election as President?


.

 

[Skwim]

The evidence demonstrates this does not happen. "The data now gathered from some 100 years of mutation research in general and 70 years of mutation breeding in particular enable scientists to draw conclusions regarding the ability of mutations to produce new species. After examining the evidence, Lönnig concluded: “Mutations cannot transform an original species [of plant or animal] into an entirely new one. This conclusion agrees with all the experiences and results of mutation research of the 20th century taken together as well as with the laws of probability. Thus, the law of recurrent variation implies that genetically properly defined species have real boundaries that cannot be abolished or transgressed by accidental mutations.” (g9/06)

Ah yes, the old Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig remark. One of the Watchtower's favorite go to pieces in its attempt to refute evolution. You do recognize that Lönnig, a committed ID advocate, is a lone wolf in his assessment don't you? A flyspeck on all the wall of evidence supporting evolution. Well, probably not. But no matter.


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[Reggie Miller]

Ah yes, the old Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig remark. One of the Watchtower's favorite go to pieces in its attempt to refute evolution. You do recognize that Lönnig, a committed ID advocate, is a lone wolf in his assessment don't you? A flyspeck on all the wall of evidence supporting evolution. Well, probably not. But no matter.


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I don't get it. I thought you were in favor of macro-evolution.

 

[Brian Schuh]

That raises an interesting issue. If God really was directing evolution behind the scenes as it were, doesn't that therefore mean God deliberately and intentionally created (via evolution) the smallpox virus, the ebola virus, the malaria parasite, and all the other pathogens that have caused countless death and suffering?

Right, there is only one God, the Lord God Hashem, who created all things, both good and evil.

 

[BilliardsBall]

How many creatures are there with both lungs and gills? That can reproduce both sexually and asexually? Than can both lay eggs and give birth?

One of the intermediate forms would have to in order for macroevolution to work.

That's not ten things. That's not where we were going with this.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No one is saying they happen at the same time.


Really! Care to name a few? Or just two?


This isn't macroevolution. And there's no such a thing as crossing over families. New species always stay within the same family, and even within the same genus.


I don't know. Now, does my lack of knowledge invalidate such a process? How about my lack of knowledge of why Trump convinced so many people to vote for him. Does this invalidate his election as President?


.

Are you going to answer my question? Then I will answer yours.

 

[Reggie Miller]

That's not ten things. That's not where we were going with this.

Well, that's where I went with it.

 

[viole]

If you believe that small changes can occur within a species so as to slightly alter its population, a process commonly called microevolution, which is accepted by many creationists, and that these changes can well be cumulative over many, many years (say thousands), why can't they eventually culminate in an organism so different from the original parent as to be a new species?

Because if x is a microevolutionary change then

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Is also a microevolutionary change. Obviously.

Ciao

- viole










.

 

[savagewind]

Because if x is a microevolutionary change then

X= xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Is also a microevolutionary change. Obviously.

Ciao

- viole










.

I suppose you can imagine all those xs happening the right way over and over again to produce all of the life we know, remembering that much of the life that evolved has already become extinct.

Many small changes as you have noted for EACH different kind of life and don't forget the plants too.

 

[Skwim]

Are you going to answer my question? Then I will answer yours.

I already did. I said, "don't know" - of ten things. Now you can answer mine:

1) Does my lack of knowledge invalidate such a process?

2) How about my lack of knowledge of why Trump convinced so many people to vote for him. Does this invalidate his election as President?


.

 

[viole]

I suppose you can imagine all those xs happening the right way over and over again to produce all of the life we know, remembering that much of the life that evolved has already become extinct.

Many small changes as you have noted for EACH different kind of life and don't forget the plants too.

There is no right way. Evolution is a naturalistic mechanism and therefore it is blind and purposeless. The idea of a guide driving the process is completely superflous. Not only superflous, but it would assume that that guide operates under the principle of trial and error.

It would also assume that this guide acts on climate, geology and the trajectory of massive asteroids so that a little rat looking like creature can leave its stinking hole, without fear of being eaten by some velociraptor, and become an ape pondering about these things.

Ciao

- viole

 

[savagewind]

There is no right way. Evolution is a naturalistic mechanism and therefore it is blind and purposeless. The idea of a guide driving the process is completely superflous. Not only superflous, but it would assume that that guide operates under the principle of trial and error.

Ciao

- viole

I don't mean right before the fact. I mean right after the fact. If a change wasn't right, the change would not qualify as an evolutionary change.

 

[viole]

I don't mean right before the fact. I mean right after the fact. If a change wasn't right, the change would not qualify as an evolutionary change.

Changes are purely random. The fact that some are right, and therefore selected and (not randomly) transmitted to the next generations, is just a contingency of the external environment.

Ciao

- viole