A warning and a call to Baha’is from Baha’u’llah’s Universal House of Justice

[Vinayaka]

Not all.

I don't believe the Baha'i Faith would bring a secular humanist happiness anymore than being a secular humanist would bring a Baha'i happiness. Its interesting to consider each others belief systems. What works for one person may never work for another.

Would you be happy becoming a Baha'i? I can't imagine you would, anymore than Hinduism for me.

I'm not sure of your original intent. Certainly other Baha'is (amongst other proselytising faiths) use that sort of language ... (you just haven't looked hard enough yet) So I don't know.

 

[Jim]

Abdul-Baha demonstrated a profound understanding of Christianity when he visited America. We need to extend that to include the entirety of mankind’s religious experience. Most of all we need to exemplify the virtues of humility and sincerity as we work with people’s from all backgrounds to build communities and a more inclusive view of what one common faith really means.

Adrian, you might be seeing what I’m seeing, that I want to discuss, so I’ll try discussing it with you some more. Sorry I got sidetracked.

I’ll explain what I’m thinking, in the simplest terms I can, then if you think you understand it, I’d like to discuss what you and I have been doing about it, what we’re hoping to do, and any other ideas we have about it.

When the first photos of earth from space started being circulated, that solidified a growing vision of the earth as a common homeland for all the people of the world, and awareness of the deceptiveness in picturing it as being composed of segments divided from each other along the lines of political boundaries. There is now a growing awareness of the variations in human qualities and capacities as a continuum, and of the deceptiveness, for most purposes, of dividing people up along race lines. Now there needs to be the same kind of awareness of the deceptiveness, for most purposes, including most or all spiritual purposes, in dividing us up along religious lines.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Baha'is are also set up neighbour devotional meetings and so have hundreds of these throughout my country.

Not unique at all. Every church, synagogue, temple, mosque does that. In vastly larger numbers.

 

[Marcion]

Now there needs to be the same kind of awareness of the deceptiveness, for most purposes, including most or all spiritual purposes, in dividing us up along religious lines.

That is what I mean also when I repeat that separate religions or faiths are not the answer. As far as I'm concerned everyone can do their yoga or tantra or some other type of mystic practice of their own choice and not worry about which tradition they are performed in.

And if you are not yet ready for such special spiritual practices then you can adrress or pray to God in whatever form or way you wish.
God is One and omnipresent anyway and for Him you are always acceptable because you are His child and He created you and knows you better than you know yourself. Even if you deny His greatness or become a mega-sinner He will never abandon anyone let alone hate them.

I wonder where and how this idea of competing so-called religions originated. Was it just a power-game between priestly classes who craved for more followers who could support them in their livelihoods?

 

[Jim]

That is what I mean also when I repeat that separate religions or faiths are not the answer.

Good. Then maybe you and I can carry this farther. Do you have any stories to tell about how you learned this, and what you’ve been trying and hoping to do about it, online and offline?

I wonder where and how this idea of competing so-called religions originated. Was it just a power-game between priestly classes who craved for more followers who could support them in their livelihoods?

That’s very close to a part of what I see in it, but I think that part of the explanation is also in the divisive interests of followers.

 

[Marcion]

Good. Then maybe you and I can carry this farther. Do you have any stories to tell about how you learned this, and what you’ve been trying and hoping to do about it, online and offline?

I can only talk to people in day to day life and online about this viewpoint. Many people automatically get suspicious if they think you have joined a religion.

I learnt this form my preceptor by listening to his talks (also live) and reading transcriptions of his talks in publications. He also taught by discussing the teachings and lives of Shiva and Krishna who seem to have likewise been staunch advocates of fighting against artificial divisions between human beings.

But hanging on to or aspiring for personal power and thereby creating divisions is perhaps a general human weakness, especially among males.

 

[Aupmanyav]

We have the annual interfaith prayers for world peace coming up. Everyone contributes. The Brahma Kumaris create a space for us all the meditate and reflect. It works well.

Brahma Kumaris are another cult who claimed to have a living God. Like meets like.

Would you be happy becoming a Baha'i? I can't imagine you would, anymore than Hinduism for me.

You won't be a Hindu and I won't be a Bahai. So we stand divided. Why should we have anything to do with each other? Your belief that Krishna and Buddha were prophets is not an honor but an insult to us. To us, both of them are avataras/God incarnate.

I wonder where and how this idea of competing so-called religions originated. Was it just a power-game between priestly classes who craved for more followers who could support them in their livelihoods?

Basically for more moolah or power over life of others. The Shaman claimed to be different from the other Shamans, so that people come to him.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Almost all religious people, most especially converts or adoptives, have done that, Anthony. Not with Baha'u'llah but with other beli9ef systems. You speak as if it is something unique to your faith, like the rest of the people don't put any thought into it. It's also true of ex-________ s, including ex-Baha'is. It's often through a great deal of turmoil, and reflection.

That is great Vinayaka. I wish every one of them all the best in life and Faith.

The point is, one does not have to be ever insulted by any of Gods Messages. As the message is given for each person to consider and implement the change required. There has never been any compulsion.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Let’s don’t just imagine it. Let’s do it. I’m ready whenever you are. What can you and I DO together about the kind of world your children’s grandchildren will inherit, regardless of what we believe about God and religion?

Therin is the great challenge before us all Jim.

The answer to that has been given and this advice by Baha'u'llah came to mind;

"My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded."

So how does that solution become the path we all want to pursue?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I wonder where and how this idea of competing so-called religions originated. Was it just a power-game between priestly classes who craved for more followers who could support them in their livelihoods?

I think the issues have arisen as we are now just comming to terms with the twofold aspect of Gods Messages.

There is the aspect that does not change and part of that aspect is what we all see as the virtues taught by all Faiths.

The part that changes is also the part we have used to divide Faiths and that is the Laws for the age the Message was given. Those laws are only applicable up and until the new Message is given and then they are abrogated and all things are made new. This is one of the hardest things that people find to let go.

We are faced with a renewed spititual outlook and new laws to aid us into the future.

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

We do not need Sons, Messengers, Prophets, Manifestations and Mahdis; and we do not need to break our heads about religions, or whether there is One God or many to experience unity. In my family, I am an atheist, all others are polytheists. So what? We are still one family. Such proclamations only create differences and conflicts. The history of Bahai and Ahmadiyya religions, who are shunned in Iran and Pakistan, shows that very clearly. We would have been better without Sons, Messengers, Prophets, Manifestations and Mahdis. They are the creators of differences and conflicts.

"Ayam, nijah, paro veti; ganānām laghuchetasām;
udāracharitānām tu 'vasudhaiva kutumbakam'." MahaUpanishad

"Me, mine, someone else's, are peoples' narrow thinking;
for the broad-minded, the whole world is a family."

I agree - especially with the bit I underlined because I know this from personal experience - I experience unity and first noticed it in my own experience in spite of rather than because or with the help of religion. But my problem now is how to help people who are (especially theistically) religious to see this without "breaking their heads" or worse "their hearts". I don't hold back too much with people who willingly engage in religious debates - they deserve what they get - and so do I for going where angels fear to tread - but...and this is the most important consideration for me...people who believe in Messiahs, Messengers and Mahdis are also part of the 'vasudhaiva kutumbakam' - one world, one family - and it takes all kinds to make a world.

 

[Jim]

(bolding mine)

I agree - especially with the bit I underlined because I know this from personal experience - I experience unity and first noticed it in my own experience in spite of rather than because or with the help of religion. But my problem now is how to help people who are (especially theistically) religious to see this without "breaking their heads" or worse "their hearts". I don't hold back too much with people who willingly engage in religious debates - they deserve what they get - and so do I for going where angels fear to tread - but...and this is the most important consideration for me...people who believe in Messiahs, Messengers and Mahdis are also part of the 'vasudhaiva kutumbakam' - one world, one family - and it takes all kinds to make a world.

“How to help people see this” is exactly the kind of discussion I want to have. Will you go there with me? Do you have any stories to tell about how you’ve been learning to relate to people this way, and what you’ve been learning to do and hoping to do, online and offline, to help others experience it?

 

[siti]

Let’s don’t just imagine it. Let’s do it. I’m ready whenever you are. What can you and I DO together about the kind of world your children’s grandchildren will inherit, regardless of what we believe about God and religion?

Many many people are already doing it. Environmentalist who work incredibly hard to protect this planet, peace activists, Doctors without Borders, and tons more. People are trying, from all religions, all walks of life.

Others remain stagnant, believing promotion of their prophet, and nothing else, is the only way.

Amen to all that!

It is summed up nicely by Carl Sagan's words at the end of the video I posted earlier. He said that the image of earth as a pale blue dot suspended in a sunbeam that we got back from Voyager was a demonstration of what he called "the folly of human conceit" that "underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the 'pale blue dot' - the only home we've ever known". And that's it - you can put it in whatever religious context you like, but the only questions we really need to answer are:

1. How can we deal more kindly with one another?

2. How can we better preserve and cherish our home - our planet, our environment, our surroundings, our own body?

How about we try editing/rewriting some of the ancient stories, not as verbatim divine revelations, but as they truly are - human stories about being human - with that in view and taking into account what 21st century science and humanistic reasoning have taught us in the intervening centuries and millennia since the stories were first written?

How about we learn to respect the ancient scriptural traditions for what they are - rather then denigrating anyone who dares to question their authority.

How about we start first by acknowledging dissenting voices as a legitimate approach to 'truth' rather than an heretical apostasy from it?

 

[Vinayaka]

How about we start first by acknowledging dissenting voices as a legitimate approach to 'truth' rather than an heretical apostasy from it?

Unfortunately I don't have high hopes. For some, sure. For others, not a chance. It's sad.

 

[Jim]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg @adrian009, thank you for being part of this discussion, and sharing your thoughts. You have done a lot to help bring out some good possibilities for me, in this discussion.

I want to try to clarify my aims and purposes in this thread, in case you would like to help me with those. I’m hoping for this discussion to help improve what people do on the Internet, to help reduce religious animosities and hostilities. I’m thinking that a deeper understanding of the issues discussed in “One Common Faith” might help. A discussion here about those issues and what we can do about them on the Internet, might possibly eventually make some difference in what people do all over the Internet.

I opened up this discussion to debate, and to other people besides Baha’is, for several reasons. One is because I think the discussions might be more fruitful that way. Another is because excluding other people besides Baha’is would be exactly the kind of sectarian behavior that I’m hoping to help change. Besides that, I’m not authorized to post in the Baha’i DIR, and I don’t want to be, for the same reasons.

Of course this discussion will mostly attract people whose only interest is to discredit the Baha’i Faith, to preach at us, to vandalize the discussion, or some other adversarial interest; and of course Baha’is will want to try to defend themselves, or use it as an opportunity to teach the Faith. All of that can serve my purposes in this thread, but what will help me the most might be to try to understand what I’m trying to do in this thread and help me do it. Defending the Baha’i Faith against detractors, or trying to teach it to them against their will, is not part of what I’m trying to do in this thread. What I’m trying to do in this thread is to have a discussion about some of the issues discussed in “One Common Faith,” that might possibly help improve what Baha’is do on the Internet, to help reduce religious animosities and hostilities.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paar, how much do Ahmadiyya's proselytise, if at all?

There is no harm in reconciling the religions and non-religions for peace in the world yet remaining steadfast on one's faith. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

That doesn't make sense Tony. I know you accept differences.

If you don't answer by context, you can agree with anything but you'd confuse your readers without addressing the post as whole.

English works with context. You are purposely ignoring "the point".

In scripture it's always context. In conversations it's context. You won't make any sense without addressing posts in the context and as a whole to which it is written.

You also need to read the Whole post when you are not busy so you can address it appropriately, or not at all.

"In scripture it's always context. In conversations it's context. You won't make any sense without addressing posts in the context and as a whole to which it is written." Unquote

Without context, one could get the wrong meaning. I agree with one.
Our friend will provide the full answer on the issue, sure.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg @adrian009, thank you for being part of this discussion, and sharing your thoughts. You have done a lot to help bring out some good possibilities for me, in this discussion.

I want to try to clarify my aims and purposes in this thread, in case you would like to help me with those. I’m hoping for this discussion to help improve what people do on the Internet, to help reduce religious animosities and hostilities. I’m thinking that a deeper understanding of the issues discussed in “One Common Faith” might help. A discussion here about those issues and what we can do about them on the Internet, might possibly eventually make some difference in what people do all over the Internet.

I opened up this discussion to debate, and to other people besides Baha’is, for several reasons. One is because I think the discussions might be more fruitful that way. Another is because excluding other people besides Baha’is would be exactly the kind of sectarian behavior that I’m hoping to help change. Besides that, I’m not authorized to post in the Baha’i DIR, and I don’t want to be, for the same reasons.

Of course this discussion will mostly attract people whose only interest is to discredit the Baha’i Faith and/or promote their own contrary interests, or even to vandalize the discussion, and of course Baha’is will want to try to defend themselves, or use it as an opportunity to promote their own views. All of that can serve my purposes in this thread, but what will help me the most might be to try to understand what I’m trying to do in this thread and help me do it. Defending the Baha’i Faith against detractors, or trying to teach it to them against their will, is not part of what I’m trying to do in this thread. What I’m trying to do in this thread is to have a discussion about some of the issues discussed in “One Common Faith,” that might possibly help improve what Baha’is do on the Internet, to help reduce religious animosities and hostilities.

Thank you Jim.

I thought that is what was being done. I see that the message itself is full of comments that you would wish to avoid giving to a lot of people, thus why I posted my original comments.

That is not a thing one can control on the internet, as when you discuss with one, all can see. Personally I see no issue with that, but I do see one has to mature in response.

What I see in the Message about sectarian behavior may not be what you see. I see it is a reference to what has happened to Faiths in the past, even when the aim of that Faith was to foster a unity, and not division because of conflicting ideas.

I see the Message asks us to get back to that Core purpose, which is that all the Messages are 'One Common Faith'.

Please feel free to point out where you see that is an issue, we are here to learn.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

There is no harm in reconciling the religions and non-religions for peace in the world yet remaining steadfast on one's faith. Right, please?

Regards

I agree totally. The problems arise when the two concepts get mixed up. They should be separate. One's personal religion is what gives them strength, satisfaction, love, and character. But then you have to recognise that that's the same for all other peoples' personal religion, and then just get along amiably on all the non-religions things. It's like two neighbours who get along amicably and can build a fence together, laugh together, because they never discuss religion. My Mormon neighbours were great that way, but the fundamentalist neighbour around the corner is just so irritating she no longer has any friendly neighbours. We all can't stand her. She's pushy, she's obnoxious, and she keeps inviting everyone to her church. People walk away when they see her coming.

It's when folks figure it's their duty to change everyone to their way, or to talk religion all day long, trying to convince themselves they're right. The fact of the matter is thee are many many POVs, and nobody should be declaring theirs is the one for all of humanity. You don't. I don't. Lots of us don't. I have no idea how we can get the rest to join us in this regard. Once you think yours is right, and everyone else is wrong, well, that's clearly not going to work.

 

[Jim]

What I see in the Message about sectarian behavior may not be what you see. I see it is a reference to what has happened to Faiths in the past, even when the aim of that Faith was to foster a unity, and not division because of conflicting ideas.

I see the Message asks us to get back to that Core purpose, which is that all the Messages are 'One Common Faith'

Thank you. Discussing what you see in the message, like that, is what I think is the best way to help me, if that’s what what you want to do.