A warning and a call to Baha’is from Baha’u’llah’s Universal House of Justice

[siti]

...change in human consciousness: something like a growing and spreading vision of the whole earth as a common homeland for all its people...Does that mean anything to anyone else here?

It means everything to me - truthfully it does - I am a grandfather of 6 - soon to be 7 - of those who will are destined to be the grandparents of children of the 22nd century. I want them to inherit a world that is truly a home for all humanity - its up to us to lay the foundation for that. To me though, "One Common Faith" - the document and the concept - doesn't cut it...this is more like it I think:

 

[Jim]

(In a reply to siti)

You're so admirably good at detailed clear debate.

I agree, and I’m grateful for it.

ETA: I see that it might not be clear, what I’m grateful for is siti’s posts.

 

[siti]

Only, instead of saying “the Baha’i religious position,” I would say “their own personal religious position.”

My apologies - it is so uncommon to see a "freethinking Baha'i" - but that's no excuse really - I am probably falling into the same trap that religious dialogue often falls into - painting everyone (else) with the same broad stroke...anyway...

I’m a Baha’i as much as they are

...I wonder if "they" agree.

 

[Jim]

It means everything to me - truthfully it does - I am a grandfather of 6 - soon to be 7 - of those who will are destined to be the grandparents of children of the 22nd century. I want them to inherit a world that is truly a home for all humanity - its up to us to lay the foundation for that.

Thank you. That put tears in my eyes, and a lump in my chest.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, I’m sorry. I thought you would see what I was getting at. I thought it would ring a bell. The advice that Unveiled Artist gave me was “Maybe go to a study meeting or something small.” Study meeting ... something small ... Does “Study circle” mean anything to you?

It was very significant to me to see that advice coming from someone who apparently knows nothing about our framework for action.

Yes that was good Jim. I have explained I read the post in a hurry. Best I do not reply when time is short.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You also need to read the Whole post when you are not busy so you can address it appropriately, or not at all.

Agreed, not at all would have been appropriate.

Regards Tony

 

[Marcion]

"makes me realize how different it is from that in my own tradition." Unquote

Please elaborate what is your thinking from understanding of your tradition.
Please quote from one's tradition also.

I already talked about it in other topics. The Bahai have quite a different approach which seems to hinge on the Muslim type of ideas about prophets.
Repeating myself could be taken as trying to hurl insults, this is after all a Bahai topic.

But I can perhaps say this: if the idea of Taraka Brahma visiting this planet repeatedly in order to educate the whole of humanity in how to better follow Dharma is true, then the vision of the Bahai preceptor is too limited in its outlook. And this limitation or flaw has mostly to do with his embracing the concept of religion (Arabic: 'majab') instead of prefering to base his vision on the concept of Dharma (Arabic: 'imán').
Also the idea of Taraka Brahma having visited this planet about every 3500 years since about 7000 years ago is quite different from the idea of Islamic style prophets visiting about every 1000 years.

Nevertheless the more superficial similarity between these two visions of God leading humanity through periodic interventions is striking. Which does not surprise me though because other ideas of the Bahá'i faith that focus on the unity of the whole of humanity are also very similar to the vision of my own preceptor.

 

[Jim]

It means everything to me - truthfully it does - I am a grandfather of 6 - soon to be 7 - of those who will are destined to be the grandparents of children of the 22nd century. I want them to inherit a world that is truly a home for all humanity - its up to us to lay the foundation for that.

Excuse me, I’m just going to sit here and cry for a while, with gratitude for that post.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

1. Should the aim of interfaith dialogue be "one common faith"? And if so why is it so important that we all believe the same things?

2. Does the Baha'i approach mistake religious "sameness" for spiritual "oneness"?

3. Should secular humanism be part of the interfaith dialogue? Why or why not?

So far, I don't see any answers.

Siti, this requires due consideration of the questions, I am finding hasty answers are never right, so it is on hold until I can find time.

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

@Jim - I am sorry I seem to be hijacking your thread somewhat, but the way this discussion has developed is something that I am passionate about - my own (very much still developing) worldview is one that calls for allowing each to see reality and God in their own way - this is not just about "tolerance" - its vitally important because in my worldview, how we see the world is how God sees "herself". From that POV - "interfaith dialogue" is not just a desirable aspect of a life of "faith" - it is an absolutely essential component of that "faith". I will write more about this in my own threads - possibly, sometime...but...

There's a story that Voltaire wrote back in 1752 called Micromegas...its about two visitors from other planets who come to earth and set out to find out what they can about the earth's inhabitants...

Anyway, towards the end of the story, they ask about the "soul" - what it is - and a few philosophers relate opinions based on Aristotle, Leibniz and Locke and finally another "philosopher" appears and tells these two highly intelligent aliens that he knows the "whole secret" and tells them it is all in Aquinas' "Summa" and that they, their suns and their planets were all created by God for man's benefit. At this the two celestial visitors fall about with "inextinguishable laughter"...knowing, as they do, that the universe is so incredibly vast and that the idea that an almighty creator would have made something so mindbogglingly huge just for the purposes of a puny species on an insignificant planet on the outskirts of an average galaxy in...well, you get the picture...

The important part for me is the very last part of the story - which I quote an English translation of (with my emphasis) here...

"Micromegas addressed them again with great kindness, though he was a little disgusted in the bottom of his heart at seeing such infinitely insignificant atoms so puffed up with pride. He promised to give them a rare book of philosophy, written in minute characters, for their special use, telling all that can be known of the ultimate essence of things, and he actually gave them the volume ere his departure. It was carried to Paris and laid before the Academy of Sciences; but when the old secretary came to open it, the pages were blank."​

That, I think, illustrates the most appropriate approach to genuine "interfaith dialogue" - to turn up with a book filled with blank pages - to turn up with the desire to learn new things from others, not an outline of doctrinal positions you are not prepared to relinquish under any circumstances. Because the truth today is as clear as it was to Voltaire two and half centuries ago - the book of "all that can be known of the ultimate essence of things" is still, despite successive religious, philosophical and scientific "revelations" stretching back several millennia, very much a blank page.

 

[Jim]

@siti I’m done crying (I thought I was, but here I go again) but I still need a lot more time to study your posts. I want to tell you again that I’m bursting with gratitude for your posts, and your willingness to actually read both messages so thoughtfully and comment on them. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that something like this could happen in a forum like this. Don’t worry, even if this ends up going down the drain, it won’t take away from my joy.

ETA:

Still working through your posts, grateful for their relevance and thoughtfulness, and admiring their clarity.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You can't be a Bahai unless you accept Bahaullah as a manifestation of Allah and you cannot be an Ahmadiyya unless you accept Mirza as the Mahdi, you cannot be a Muslim unless you accept Mohammad as the last messenger of Allah and you can't be a Christian unless you accept Jesus as the anointed son of God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It means everything to me - truthfully it does - I am a grandfather of 6 - soon to be 7 - of those who will are destined to be the grandparents of children of the 22nd century. I want them to inherit a world that is truly a home for all humanity - its up to us to lay the foundation for that. To me though, "One Common Faith" - the document and the concept - doesn't cut it...

On Lunch

I saw this, loved the heart that went into the reply. I had been thinking a lot about what has been saidand offer this;

What people may have not considered, is that every one that has decided to implement the Message given by Baha'u'llah, has already had to come to terms with the thoughts and warnings given. Many of us I can tell you have had to look long and hard at our our own selves and implement a lot of change, with much more required.

I will try to address this in detail later tonight.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

We do not need Sons, Messengers, Prophets, Manifestations and Mahdis; and we do not need to break our heads about religions, or whether there is One God or many to experience unity. In my family, I am an atheist, all others are polytheists. So what? We are still one family. Such proclamations only create differences and conflicts. The history of Bahai and Ahmadiyya religions, who are shunned in Iran and Pakistan, shows that very clearly. We would have been better without Sons, Messengers, Prophets, Manifestations and Mahdis. They are the creators of differences and conflicts.

"Ayam, nijah, paro veti; ganānām laghuchetasām;
udāracharitānām tu 'vasudhaiva kutumbakam'." MahaUpanishad

"Me, mine, someone else's, are peoples' narrow thinking;
for the broad-minded, the whole world is a family."

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009 @Vinayaka @Tony Bristow-Stagg @siti @Unveiled Artist @paarsurrey @Marcion

I’m very grateful to all of you for your contributions to this discussion. What’s happening is much better than I could have possibly imagined. It’s given me a lot to think about, too. After this post I’ll go back to reviewing what everyone has posted, and possibly respond to it some more.

Now I want to try to discuss something that I don’t think can possibly ever be communicated in words or by any amount or kind of discussion, and which might even be outside of some people’s experience. What might be possible is to consider an analogy with some experiences that might be familiar to everyone. Discussion of the analogy together might help this discussion do what I’m hoping for it to do, which is to help improve the attitudes and behavior of Baha’is on the Internet, including mine.

Is that clear? If it makes sense to anyone, maybe you can help me explain it.

First consider some deeply moving experience you’ve had with nature, after years of reading and hearing about it. One example for me was the Grand Canyon, and another one, even more intense, was standing in a cave behind Niagara Falls, close enough to the falling water to reach out and touch it, and feeling the solid rock trembling beneath my feet. I’m hoping for some or all of you to post some other examples. My examples are of gigantic works of nature, but there might be other examples involving works of nature of microscopic size, or somewhere in between. Some deeply moving experience with nature, after years of hearing and reading about it.

In my early 20s I became disenchanted at the state of the world. Although I had reconnected with my Christian roots, I started studying Eastern philosophy that had been influenced by Hinduism and Buddhism. I learnt meditation and moved into the countryside and lived alone in relative seclusion amidst the world of nature. The sound of the ocean and wind and the fragrances of nature were my friends. For over two years I reflected on the nature of ultimate reality and sought to see how things really were. Eventually I became despondent but as I returned to God in my thoughts and prayers my spirit lifted. When I returned from my seclusion and reconnected with the world of people I prayed for guidance as to a community of like minded peoples. That led me to the Baha’i Faith. I’d come across it in the first year of my search but my Christian background had been a barrier to further exploration. I’ve been a Baha’i for nearly 30 years.

 

[Dawnofhope]

"That one faith includes the Baha’i Faith as the latest stage in mankind’s evolution. But we need to develop insights not just into Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation but those that have come beforehand."Unquote

How would one reconcile it with Quran?- which:
~ declares Muhammad as khatam-an-nabiyyeen (Quran 33:41)*
~and completion of truthful religion with Islam (Quran 5:4)**

Regards
____________
Quran
*[33:41]
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 33: Al-Ahzab
Quran
**[5:4]
Forbidden to you is the flesh of an animal which dies of itself, and blood and the flesh of swine; and that on which is invoked the name of one other than Allah; and that which has been strangled; and that beaten to death; and that killed by a fall; and that which has been gored to death; and that of which a wild animal has eaten, except that which you have properly slaughtered; and that which has been slaughtered at an altar. And forbidden is also that you seek to know your lot by the divining arrows. That is an act of disobedience. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of harming your religion. So fear them not, but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion. But whoso is forced by hunger, without being wilfully inclined to sin, then, surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 5: Al-Ma'idah

Although I believe that Muhammad is a Messenger of God and the Qur’an is a Revelation from God, I am a Baha’i. The terms seal in regards to the prophets is like the seal of a King. The interpretation of the above verses does not negate the possibility of a future Revelation from God. That is where Muslims and Baha’is often differ in their perspective.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

1. Should the aim of interfaith dialogue be "one common faith"? And if so why is it so important that we all believe the same things?

I am still with the 'One Common Faith', as I see that it is calling us all to greater levels of understanding, this passage stands out;

"..At the deepest level, as Baha’u’llah emphasizes, there is but one religion. Religion is religion, as science is science. The one discerns and articulates the values unfolding progressively through Divine revelation; the other is the instrumentality through which the human mind explores and is able to exert its influence ever more precisely over the phenomenal world.

Thus our mindset must be that we are all searching for the truth of our existence, the truth this creation contains in both Religion and Science.

2. Does the Baha'i approach mistake religious "sameness" for spiritual "oneness"?

A do not see a sameness, I see we are all searching for the same Goal. Science has shown we are but one Human Race, with a diversity of Nature and Nurture.

3. Should secular humanism be part of the interfaith dialogue? Why or why not?

I can see no reason why secular humanism would not be involved. That would be up to each individual that has chosen that path in life. After all, there is not one person on this planet that has not been invited.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I meant Baha'u'llah, for it is he who predicted that it would take over a thousand years.
If a "next great visionary" had lived within a hundred years after the death of Baha'u'llah then the prediction would have been wrong.

This is the problem with different movements who think along different lines in different ways. They are incapable of recognizing the value of new preceptors and new philosophies to the full. It is all very well to want to be universal and embrace different paths sympathetically, but how to do this is not so easy if you haven't got the proper keys to open the locks so you can understand or fathom their value.

That is not to say there couldn’t be great and enlightened people to come. Of course there will be. Baha’is however do not believe there will be another great Teacher like Krishna, Buddha or Jesus anytime soon. Is Bahá’u’lláh wrong? Time will tell.

 

[Marcion]

That is not to say there couldn’t be great and enlightened people to come. Of course there will be. Baha’is however do not believe there will be another great Teacher like Krishna, Buddha or Jesus anytime soon. Is Bahá’u’lláh wrong? Time will tell.

Great teachers like Lord Shiva (>7000 yrs), Lord Krishna (>3500 yrs), Lord Anandamurti (recent) and lesser teachers like Lord Gautama Buddha (abt 2500 yrs), Lord Mahavira (abt 2500 yrs), Lord Yeshua (abt 2000 yrs), Mahaprabhu Chaitanya (abt 500 yrs), etc. etc. have left their spiritual or tantric instructions on Dharma and have thereby greatly effected the destiny of humanity. More great teachers will come in future if Dharma becomes again seriously threatened on this planet.

Most people on this planet however don't (yet?) have a unified general view of the significance of all of these teachers. What was their actual historical role and what is religious speculation about them? Do the Baha'i have the ultimate key to understanding them properly? Perhaps time will tell, but how?

 

[Dawnofhope]

1. Should the aim of interfaith dialogue be "one common faith"? And if so why is it so important that we all believe the same things?

We already have one common faith, but find it hard to see the connections. The traditions of our culture often obscure this truth. It’s those blind men again, but as you said on an earlier post, they are not wrong but simply hold a different part of the same truth. We’re all blind and we all hold truth. The same applies for your worldview as for a Baha’i perspective.

How important is it we all believe the same things? Sometimes unity of thought is essential for a group working together for the same aims. They need to agree on those aims as a starting point.

No less essential is diversity as we need different approaches to achieve community building.

That is why the Baha’is use the phrase ‘unity in diversity’ and not ‘unity in conformity’.

2. Does the Baha'i approach mistake religious "sameness" for spiritual "oneness"?

Sometimes we do. We’re human after all.

3. Should secular humanism be part of the interfaith dialogue? Why or why not?

I’m a member of my cities interfaith council. If your desire is to promote and safeguard rights of all genuine faiths (as well as your own) to practice their faith and have a voice, then yes. If your role is to undermine religion by incessant criticism and to exalt your own personal agenda and preferences above everyone else’s then no.

So far, I don't see any answers.

Perhaps the answers have been provided but simply don’t satisfy you?