A warning and a call to Baha’is from Baha’u’llah’s Universal House of Justice

[Vinayaka]

"But it is a problem with the "revealed" religions - how can they possibly accept that someone else who sees it differently can possibly be right when they have God's very word on the matter?" Unquote

Among others there is a possibility that one understands the Word of God incorrectly. Right, please?
Regards

Yes it's a big problem. Each group feels strongly that all the other sides misunderstand the word of God. It shows a total lack of sensibility towards diversity, and is ultimately just selfishness. It's living in instinctive minds of 'Mine' and 'my'. Just like 2 three year old kids, arguing, 'My Daddy is better than your Daddy', Some days I just want to scream, "Grow up already!"

 

[Jim]

@adrian009 @Vinayaka @Tony Bristow-Stagg @siti @Unveiled Artist @paarsurrey @Marcion

I’m very grateful to all of you for your contributions to this discussion. What’s happening is much better than I could have possibly imagined. It’s given me a lot to think about, too. After this post I’ll go back to reviewing what everyone has posted, and possibly respond to it some more.

Now I want to try to discuss something that I don’t think can possibly ever be communicated in words or by any amount or kind of discussion, and which might even be outside of some people’s experience. What might be possible is to consider an analogy with some experiences that might be familiar to everyone. Discussion of the analogy together might help this discussion do what I’m hoping for it to do, which is to help improve the attitudes and behavior of Baha’is on the Internet, including mine.

Is that clear? If it makes sense to anyone, maybe you can help me explain it.

First consider some deeply moving experience you’ve had with nature, after years of reading and hearing about it. One example for me was the Grand Canyon, and another one, even more intense, was standing in a cave behind Niagara Falls, close enough to the falling water to reach out and touch it, and feeling the solid rock trembling beneath my feet. I’m hoping for some or all of you to post some other examples. My examples are of gigantic works of nature, but there might be other examples involving works of nature of microscopic size, or somewhere in between. Some deeply moving experience with nature, after years of hearing and reading about it.

 

[Vinayaka]

@adrian009 @Vinayaka @Tony Bristow-Stagg @siti @Unveiled Artist @paarsurrey @Marcion

Is that clear? If it makes sense to anyone, maybe you can help me explain it.

First consider some deeply moving experience you’ve had with nature, after years of reading and hearing about it. One example for me was the Grand Canyon, and another one, even more intense, was standing in a cave behind Niagara Falls, close enough to the falling water to reach out and touch it, and feeling the solid rock trembling beneath my feet. I’m hoping for some or all of you to post some other examples. My examples are of gigantic works of nature, but there might be other examples involving works of nature of microscopic size, or somewhere in between. Some deeply moving experience with nature, after years of hearing and reading about it.

Jim, I probably have no idea what you're trying to get at. I don't see any connection at all between appreciating nature, and helping Baha'is be nicer on the internet. The best I can do is think that appreciating nature would be similar to appreciating diversity. But appreciating diversity seems to be the antithesis of what Baha's try to do in their search for unity the Baha'i way.

 

[Jim]

I think believers have got to learn to welcome with open arms all dissenting voices - not least because they offer a wholly different perspective.

I think so too. I think we need all kinds of people, with all kinds of ideas and interests, to feel welcome, and truly be welcome, to promote those ideas and interests, without being stigmatized or penalized for it.

It might be a long time before that happens though. Meanwhile we need as many volunteers as possible to go ahead and promote their diverging ideas and interests in spite of all the stigmatizing and hostilities it might arouse. At the same time, the more we can learn to do that without promoting factional feuding the better.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think so too. I think we need all kinds of people, with all kinds of ideas and interests, to feel welcome, and truly be welcome, to promote those ideas and interests, without being stigmatized or penalized for it.

It might be a long time before that happens though. Meanwhile we need as many volunteers as possible to go ahead and promote their diverging ideas and interests in spite of all the stigmatizing and hostilities it might arouse. At the same time, the more we can learn to do that without promoting factional feuding the better.

Why would we want to promote our ideas? Can't we just leave people alone? If there was less promoting of personal ideas the world would get along better I think.

 

[oldbadger]

Of course - and I don't really blame them for that because I think we all think our idea of "truth" is correct - otherwise we would change our idea. The problem is not that they think they are right, its that they think there is only one way of being right. I don't see how a genuine "interfaith dialogue" can work on that basis. Its a bit like trying to convince the six blind men if Hindustan that they were all wrong about the nature of the elephant, it just isn't going to work. What you need is a way of saying (a way of seeing) that they are all right in different ways. The Baha'i Faith, and that letter and the "One Common Faith" document don't say that though - they say, in effect, that the other religions are right only to the extent that they agree with the Baha'i perception of truth. That's just not the same thing at all - and whilst it is a perfectly understandable religious position - it is not a sound basis for eliminating religious disharmony as far as I can tell. But it is a problem with the "revealed" religions - how can they possibly accept that someone else who sees it differently can possibly be right when they have God's very word on the matter?

Nicely put......

 

[oldbadger]

No idea. Maybe a Baha'i here knows.

No probs......

 

[Marcion]

Why would we want to promote our ideas? Can't we just leave people alone? If there was less promoting of personal ideas the world would get along better I think.

In my country there is a tremendous shift going on with people moving from one way of practising into another and old forms of practise are dwindling fast, many old churches are turned into book stores, appartments, restaurants or mosques (the mosques will probably follow the same route within a few decades or so).
So it matters that people present their paths to others if they think their paths are better suited to the newer times. Plenty of young folk are looking for spiritual paths that suit them.

 

[Jim]

So my guess is the plan is not to find "common ground" at all, but to find ways of smiling politely whilst you attempt to stick the knife in (figuratively speaking of course) to any way of thinking that is (a) not religious and (b) more importantly, not Baha'i.

I agree that what the letter is promoting is not about finding common ground at all, at least not in our religions and cultures. I don’t see anything in the letter telling me to attempt to stick the knife in (figuratively speaking) to any way of thinking, religious or not, and I see a lot in my scriptures telling me not to.

In the end I think the best the interfaith movement can possibly hope for is to find common ground for action in resolving human issues ...

I’m not sure that’s the best it can hope for. I’m not sure it isn’t. I am sure that whatever it can do will not be nearly enough to end the animosities and hostilities, and bring out the best possibilities in collective action. It has built-in limiting presumptions which will make that impossible. I think it also revolves mostly around PR for the religions involved, which also limits its possibilities, if that’s true.

I can't see why it has to be an exclusively religious thing.

I don’t think it does have to be an exclusively religious thing.

The Baha'i document seems to be saying "imagine what we could achieve if we all BELIEVE the same things about God and religion"

That’s what it seems to you to be saying. I’m not objecting to you saying that. I’m glad and grateful for it, and I’m sure you aren’t alone in seeing it that way. What matters for my purposes is what it seems to Baha’is to be saying, and that’s what I’m hoping discussions like this might help improve.

I am asking, is it not more reasonable to say "imagine what we could achieve if we all stopped thinking like that and focused a bit more on what we can DO together regardless of what we believe about God and religion".

Let’s don’t just imagine it. Let’s do it. I think that’s part of what needs to happen, what is happening, and what will be happening more and more.

 

[Jim]

I wonder how Bahai's think about people who practise yoga, tantra or meditation without any (self-identified) religious affiliation?

How Baha’is think about that might vary as widely among them, as it does in the rest of the population. I’m not aware of any Baha’i institutions telling us how to think about that. I certainly don’t see anything wrong with it, if that’s what you mean. It seems like a strange question to me. I’m not even sure I understand the question. What is there to think about it? I’m currently living in China, where most people say they don’t believe in God. I see people doing Tai Chi all the time, and my only reaction is a slight feeling of guilt for not doing it myself.

Can you even say that 'all religions are one' if you don't acknowledge that the whole idea of separate religions with distinct boundaries is a damaging affair? I mean how can you be sincere about disapproving of the divisiveness between religions if you don't disapprove of the concept of so-called 'religions' in the first place?

I don’t think that the idea of separate religions with distinct boundaries is damaging in itself, any more than the idea of having separate countries with distinct boundaries. I think that what’s damaging is not the lines between religions. What can be damaging is how we think and feel about people across those lines.

 

[Jim]

Maybe go to a study meeting or something small ...

That looks like very good advice to me. @Tony Bristow-Stagg, doesn’t that look like good advice to you?

But, other than that, if youre still practicing bahai, distance yourself and do your thing. Its hard given if its what Im familar because the sense of community (JW, Bahai, Catholic, SGI, Shoshu, etc) are pretty tightnit on its followers.

No need to worry about me. I’ve been in this for almost 50 years. I know my way around.

 

[paarsurrey]

Let’s examine one paragraph and I’ll break it down:

In no sense can Bahá’ís profess to have grasped at this early hour more than a minute portion of the truths inherent in the revelation on which their Faith is based. With reference, for example, to the evolution of the Cause, the Guardian said, “All we can reasonably venture to attempt is to strive to obtain a glimpse of the first streaks of the promised Dawn that must, in the fullness of time, chase away the gloom that has encircled humanity.

So as a starting point for interfaith dialogue we are reminded by the Universal House of Justice that we don’t know too much. We are encouraged to acquire a humble posture of learning. My reflection is that we need to be learning from all whom we come in contact with and in no way imagine the truth to be the exclusive domain of Baha’is.

On the other hand we need to understand the perplexity many find in regards the weighty theme of man’s religious experience. With a loss of confidence in traditional religions comes a loss of hope and in some cases despair. Despite only being able to perceive the earliest glimpses of Bahá’u’lláh, we need to cultivate a sufficient understanding that we do not become confused and despondent. To the contrary we should strive for clarity of vision, confidence in Bahá’u’lláh’s vision and genuine happiness.

”Apart from encouraging humility, this fact should serve also as a constant reminder that Bahá’u’lláh has not brought into existence a new religion to stand beside the present multiplicity of sectarian organizations. Rather has He recast the whole conception of religion as the principal force impelling the development of consciousness. As the human race in all its diversity is a single species, so the intervention by which God cultivates the qualities of mind and heart latent in that species is a single process. Its heroes and saints are the heroes and saints of all stages in the struggle; its successes, the successes of all stages.

This is deep and clarifies what is meant by one common faith, that is humanities collective experience of faith from the dawn of civilisation until now. That one faith includes the Baha’i Faith as the latest stage in mankind’s evolution. But we need to develop insights not just into Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation but those that have come beforehand.

This is the standard demonstrated in the life and work of the Master and exemplified today in a Bahá’í community that has become the inheritor of humanity’s entire spiritual legacy, a legacy equally available to all the earth’s peoples.

Abdul-Baha demonstrated a profound understanding of Christianity when he visited America. We need to extend that to include the entirety of mankind’s religious experience. Most of all we need to exemplify the virtues of humility and sincerity as we work with people’s from all backgrounds to build communities and a more inclusive view of what one common faith really means.

"That one faith includes the Baha’i Faith as the latest stage in mankind’s evolution. But we need to develop insights not just into Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation but those that have come beforehand."Unquote

How would one reconcile it with Quran?- which:
~ declares Muhammad as khatam-an-nabiyyeen (Quran 33:41)*
~and completion of truthful religion with Islam (Quran 5:4)**

Regards
____________
Quran
*[33:41]
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 33: Al-Ahzab
Quran
**[5:4]
Forbidden to you is the flesh of an animal which dies of itself, and blood and the flesh of swine; and that on which is invoked the name of one other than Allah; and that which has been strangled; and that beaten to death; and that killed by a fall; and that which has been gored to death; and that of which a wild animal has eaten, except that which you have properly slaughtered; and that which has been slaughtered at an altar. And forbidden is also that you seek to know your lot by the divining arrows. That is an act of disobedience. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of harming your religion. So fear them not, but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion. But whoso is forced by hunger, without being wilfully inclined to sin, then, surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 5: Al-Ma'idah

 

[Vinayaka]

In my country there is a tremendous shift going on with people moving from one way of practising into another and old forms of practise are dwindling fast, many old churches are turned into book stores, appartments, restaurants or mosques (the mosques will probably follow the same route within a few decades or so).
So it matters that people present their paths to others if they think their paths are better suited to the newer times. Plenty of young folk are looking for spiritual paths that suit them.

My point is that, with the internet, it's all very easy to find. There is no need for promotion at this time. If people want to find new faiths, they'll go looking. You no longer need to lead the horse to water. Water is everywhere. If they don't have the skills to find you, it doesn't say much for their actual interest.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There was a Dharma talk I listened to awhile back. T

That looks like very good advice to me. @Tony Bristow-Stagg, doesn’t that look like good advice to you?

No need to worry about me. I’ve been in this for almost 50 years. I know my way around.

Fifty years, huh? Sounds like you do. Don't sweat it, though. It took me a bit to say to my friends, hey. I know you care but I feel uncomfortable. Course they give me flyers and call me only when they want to give me info about the new events or meetings. Sometimes I remind them but no hard feelings. Think my facial expression gave them the picture.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am a bit tired of the warnings of monotheist religions.

.. our responsibility in response to the harrowing, unthinkable, worldwide consequences ahead, if the disease of sectarian hatreds was not decisively checked.

So, now there is one more contender.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How Baha’is think about that might vary as widely among them, as it does in the rest of the population. I’m not aware of any Baha’i institutions telling us how to think about that. I certainly don’t see anything wrong with it, if that’s what you mean. It seems like a strange question to me. I’m not even sure I understand the question. What is there to think about it? I’m currently living in China, where most people say they don’t believe in God. I see people doing Tai Chi all the time, and my only reaction is a slight feeling of guilt for not doing it myself.


I don’t think that the idea of separate religions with distinct boundaries is damaging in itself, any more than the idea of having separate countries with distinct boundaries. I think that what’s damaging is not the lines between religions. What can be damaging is how we think and feel about people across those lines.

I remember talking to someone from China here in the states who said he didn't believe in god. I think that would shock a lot of christians (and others?) that there is a large population that god isn't a functional part of. If they hadn't been to China wonder how they react.

Hm. Interesting

 

[paarsurrey]

The way I see it, what is being said is they all speak of the same truth, this truth does not cause division and we as humanity, we are to find why we have divided Faith.

I can not see how you can please every person in this process. If every person was going to be pleased to hear this message, then Baha'u'llah would not have faced any persecution or banishment.

We will all face our challenges to find our Unity.

Regards Tony

"The way I see it, what is being said is they all speak of the same truth, this truth does not cause division and we as humanity, we are to find why we have divided Faith." Unquote

I agree with this perception belonging to Ahmadiyya peaceful Islam while letting other religions and non-religions to co-exist peacefully.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I know very little about the teachings of Baha'u'llah although I very much like the universalist aspects that I see reflected here on the forum. If I would know of a personality who is even wiser, more visionary and more universal than Baha'u'llah who lived after Baha'u'llah, then that would mean that even a great visionary like Baha'u'llah was capable of making faulty predictions.

"If I would know of a personality who is even wiser, more visionary and more universal than Baha'u'llah who lived after Baha'u'llah, then that would mean that even a great visionary like Baha'u'llah* was capable of making faulty predictions." Unquote

I don't get whom is exactly attributed to, colored in magenta by me, by one to Bahaullah or the one who comes later or to both. Please elaborate.

Regards
____________
Bahá'u'lláh (1817-1892 )
Mirza Ghulam (Ahmad 1835-1908)

 

[paarsurrey]

Jim, I probably have no idea what you're trying to get at. I don't see any connection at all between appreciating nature, and helping Baha'is be nicer on the internet. The best I can do is think that appreciating nature would be similar to appreciating diversity. But appreciating diversity seems to be the antithesis of what Baha's try to do in their search for unity the Baha'i way.

"Jim, I probably have no idea what you're trying to get at. I don't see any connection at all between appreciating nature, and helping Baha'is be nicer on the internet. The best I can do is think that appreciating nature would be similar to appreciating diversity." Unquote

I agree with friend @Vinayaka.
Regards

 

[Marcion]

Differences don't have to be divisive at all, and most often aren't. For most of us, diversity is a reason to celebrate.

I did not speak of differences but of divisiveness. Baha'i don't seem to be concerned with differences as such but with the disunity.