A warning and a call to Baha’is from Baha’u’llah’s Universal House of Justice

[Aupmanyav]

I know my community has lost its way and will suffer more being left to its own self.

Underline mine.
Oh, in that case you need another manifestation. Kindly keep to your ways and let the rest also keep to their ways. You would be doing a favor to the world, rather than trying to change the world your way. What way, those who have lost their own way, can show to the world?

 

[siti]

@siti I think of our different views as being like the different kinds of flat-map projections of the earth’s surface: projections of the world in and around us onto our minds. As Korzybski said “The map is not the territory.”

Each view is better than others, for some purposes. No view is the best view for all purposes. One of the most useful views for navigation has no place on it for the North Pole, no matter how far it is extended to the North.

I agree - I think this is a very important thing to remember. And I think the more detailed we make the maps, the more unwieldy and esoteric they become.

I am reminded also of Jorge Luis Borges' story in Of Exactitude in Science where he wrote about the cartographers of a certain empire, who had produced a map on the same scale as the empire, which coincided with it “point for point”. This extensive map was found too cumbersome and was abandoned to the “rigours of the sun and rain”.

Imagine an exact 3-dimensional map of a maze on a 1:1 scale - wouldn't it be just as easy to get lost in the map as it was in the maze itself?

So perhaps the closer our "faith" comes to "sight" - the less practically useful our faith becomes. What is the use of beholding "God" face to face then? Maybe that's why God told Moses he couldn't see God and live. (Exodus 33:20) - because what would be the practical purpose of life after seeing the ultimate reality as it truly is? What else would there be left to experience after that? You certainly could not explain it to anyone else with any accuracy - only in a limited, metaphorical or figurative way - only as a scaled down "map" that might guide them to a closer appreciation - but surely never to a full experience of that reality.

And what then is the point of chasing after someone else's exclusive "vision" of the "ultimate reality"? You can never actually see it through their eyes - you have only their second-hand reports - no matter how detailed, or grand, or uplifting...etc.

But maybe in the putting together of such "reports" from different sources, we can build up a clearer (but not necessarily more detailed) map that helps us each to locate ourselves within that reality and direct our efforts to making the most of our journey through it? Perhaps?

 

[Jim]

@siti I also think of it as being like rectangular coordinates and polar coordinates, or like orthogonal projections in mechanical drawings.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Underline mine.
Oh, in that case you need another manifestation. Kindly keep to your ways and let the rest also keep to their ways. You would be doing a favor to the world, rather than trying to change the world your way. What way, those who have lost their own way, can show to the world?

Do you think that street fighting, spouse abuse, child rape, drunkenness, drug abuse and clan fighting are good things to continue with?

Peace be with you. Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009 @Marcion @paarsurrey @siti @Tony Bristow-Stagg

I’ll need to go back through the whole thread with the new possibilities that I’m seeing in mind. I’ll be looking for ideas that I might have missed, about what people can do on the Internet, to help change popular attitudes and behavior. I’ll also be reading both letters again.

One question I want to discuss is what changes to aim for in attitudes and behavior. Another is what people can do on the Internet, to help bring about those changes. If anyone has any stories to tell about what you’ve been trying to do, and hoping to do, to help bring about widespread changes in attitudes and behavior, I would like to see those. If anyone would like to see my stories, let me know

I’m not really trying to change anyone except myself.

For now I want to try to describe some changes in attitudes and behavior that I’m aiming for, and some thoughts about how to practice and promote them. One way of describing what I’m aiming for is moving away from adversarial attitudes and behavior across ideological dividing lines, and towards working side by side as friends and companions with people across those lines, to help improve the world for all people everywhere, ignoring those lines.

The possible impact of Internet discussions on that might be very small, but I don’t think it’s zero. Considering the urgency of it, I want everything I do on the Internet to serve that purpose, to help move people away from adversarial attitudes and behavior across ideological dividing lines, and towards working side by side as friends and companions to help improve the world for all people everywhere, ignoring those dividing lines.

I believe if we’re simply listening to others and trying to make sense of their worldview then it reduces conflict though doesn’t eliminate it. There’s an inevitable clash though as not everyone is satisfied doing just that.

I’ll describe some things I’ve been learning to do, and hoping to do, for that purpose. First, to work continually to move my own attitudes and behavior more in that direction. One way I’ve done that is by spending time in blogs and forums of some of people whose ideas and interests seemed most contrary to mine, trying to practice fellowship with them, to learn from them, to see things their way, and to see the good in them and what they’re doing. Another thing I’ve been trying and hoping to learn is to be better friends with more people. Now I’m trying to learn to bring these issues up for discussion, in ways that might lead to fruitful and beneficial conversations. I’d also like to learn to help provide the kind of encouragement and support that really helps, to each person on their path of progress. I’ve been able to do that on a few rare occasions, but I’d like to learn to do it more.

That sounds excellent that you are wanting to enter into discussion with people with very different points of view. The challenge is how to encourage and support others who have fundamentally different behaviours and perspectives from our own. For example should we encourage and support a religious bigot to continue being a religious bigot? The answer to the question seems clear enough. No.

Another thing that I’m hoping to see is some kind of online parallel to a kind of community development that I’ve seen offline, where people in a neighborhood or village are working together to help make their community life healthier, happier, and more loving for everyone in it.

I suspect the principle online is similar to what happens in our neighbourhoods. We end up being part of a group with those who enjoy talking to each other and have similar interests.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Do you think that street fighting, spouse abuse, child rape, drunkenness, drug abuse and clan fighting are good things to continue with?

Does Hinduism mandates that?
You are not a billion, not even 10 million yet. There will always be a fringe.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Our part is to share a community building spirit, where virtues and service to each other are at the forefront. I know my community has lost its way

Underline mine.
Oh, in that case you need another manifestation. Kindly keep to your ways and let the rest also keep to their ways. You would be doing a favor to the world, rather than trying to change the world your way. What way, those who have lost their own way, can show to the world?

Do you think that street fighting, spouse abuse, child rape, drunkenness, drug abuse and clan fighting are good things to continue with?

Does Hinduism mandates that?
You are not a billion, not even 10 million, yet. There will always be a fringe.

So as a Hindu, you would look to guide your community away from any of those issues?

If you answer yes, then you are suppportive of what we also try to do.

If you answer no, then your comments to me may have some value in your eyes, but not mine and I would still help my community steer away from all these issues.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

We have managed changes for thousands of years. We will manage whatever changes are required in future also. Thanks, and no thanks.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We have managed changes for thousands of years. We will manage whatever changes are required in future also. Thanks, and no thanks.

I am glad you support needed change.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

"5/ The history of India has involved significant periods of colonisation and oppression from Islam and then Christianity." Unquote

It started even earlier.
Can when tell me , how much period of time is needed for a race to be considered indigenous in a land while they had earlier done the same act of "colonization and oppression" to a people earlier living in the same land? Any guess, please?

Regards

That’s actually a really good question. In my country the indigenous people are the Maori and the Europeans colonised during the 19th century.

How are the Muslims seen in ‘tolerant’ India? Indigenous or outsiders?

 

[Dawnofhope]

One "ultimate reality" perhaps, but that doesn't necessarily mean "one truth" - does it?

That’s true, relatively speaking lol. There’s but one ultimate reality that we can only gain a fleeting glimpse of and many different truths to explain our experience.

But the revelation as expressed can never match the reality as experienced. Can it?

That’s been the key dilemma as my understanding of what Christ taught didn’t match my experience. When Jesus said ‘I am the way’ John 14:6 I thought He mean there was only one way to God and that was through Christ. That truth did not match my experience of peoples from different faiths whose lives were worthy of admiration. So in good conscience I could no longer consider myself a Christian. Later I came to a better understanding of what Christ meant that I could better reconcile with my experience.

 

[Dawnofhope]

We have managed changes for thousands of years. We will manage whatever changes are required in future also. Thanks, and no thanks.

I agree that it’s up to the peoples of India to sort out its many social problems, human rights abuses and socioeconomic development.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am glad you support needed change.

Of course, India takes the steps which it consideres necessary.There are strong laws against all social abuses. People who commit them are punished appropriately. Just today the Indian Supreme Court has repealed a 157-year old law inherited from the British that criminalized LGBTQ. What does Bahaullah say about that?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Can when tell me, how much period of time is needed for a race to be considered indigenous in a land while they had earlier done the same act of "colonization and oppression" to a people earlier living in the same land?

Depends on the in-coming people. Some adjust quickly, one don't. People who came earlier than Muslims adjusted quickly. Muslims and Christians had their insistence on one God as propounded by Muhammad and Jesus, and acted against the majority. They have not been able to adjust to India completely. But still, life goes on, they continue to prosper in India..

 

[Jim]

I’m not really trying to change anyone except myself.

That gives me an idea. If you wouldn’t mind telling me what changes you’re aiming for in your attitudes and behavior, to help reduce animosities and hostilities across religious divides, that would help me a lot with what I’m hoping for this discussion to do.

I believe if we’re simply listening to others and trying to make sense of their worldview then it reduces conflict though doesn’t eliminate it.

Can you tell me anything about your efforts and progress in that, over the years?

The challenge is how to encourage and support others who have fundamentally different behaviours and perspectives from our own.

I can always find something in what people are doing, that I want to encourage and support. I can’t imagine anything more contrary to my interests than Baha’is campaigning against the House of Justice, and trying to turn other Baha’is against it, but I found a lot to like in some people who were doing that, and in what they were trying to do.

 

[Marcion]

What makes you think we do not value all Spiritual Paths that are either from God, or are a personal path based on Values?

"I think Vinayaka is saying that Bahai cannot properly perform that duty until they broaden their understanding of what the value of all spiritual paths is, no longer focussing too much on the monotheistic outlook which is too narrow-minded."

 

[Dawnofhope]

That gives me an idea. If you wouldn’t mind telling me what changes you’re aiming for in your attitudes and behavior, to help reduce animosities and hostilities across religious divides, that would help me a lot with what I’m hoping for this discussion to do.

Over a period of seven years I worked as a psychiatry intern helping people with all backgrounds including those with addictions, personality disorders and involved in the criminal justice system. During that time I learnt to accept people as they are without the incessant need to change them.

Can you tell me anything about your efforts and progress in that, over the years?

The last seven years I have done volunteer work for a Christian medical that provides free health services for those in need. Initially they were extremely uncomfortable with having a non-Christian in their midst and I was so comfortable with conservative Christianity. Now we are friends and I don’t think about what religion they are too much. A couple of years ago they changed their policy to be more inclusive of peoples of other faiths.

I can always find something in what people are doing, that I want to encourage and support. I can’t imagine anything more contrary to my interests than Baha’is campaigning against the House of Justice, and trying to turn other Baha’is away against it, but I found a lot to like in some people who were doing that, and in what they were trying to do.

Three prominent members of the internet group against the Universal House of Justice came from my small town community. One even posts on RF from time to time. I haven’t seen any of the Baha’is here treat him discourteously. We all have our struggles in this life. For me, acceptance of the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh was part of becoming a Baha’i. Belief in Bahá’u’lláh and rejecting the institutions He established to assist remedy the world is a contradiction. We all have our contradictions I suppose.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"I think Vinayaka is saying that Bahai cannot properly perform that duty until they broaden their understanding of what the value of all spiritual paths is, no longer focussing too much on the monotheistic outlook which is too narrow-minded."

I like that part of your signature line is what I see that One Common Faith is also talking about;

"Shiva's clear instruction was: "Beware of those who want to divide people, those who try to erect walls of artifical separation between pure and simple human beings....."

Regards Tony

 

[Marcion]

For me, acceptance of the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh was part of becoming a Baha’i. Belief in Bahá’u’lláh and rejecting the institutions He established to assist remedy the world is a contradiction. We all have our contradictions I suppose.

Would you call yourself a fundamentalist type of Baha'i?

 

[Marcion]

I like that part of your signature line is what I see that One Common Faith is also talking about;

"Shiva's clear instruction was: "Beware of those who want to divide people, those who try to erect walls of artifical separation between pure and simple human beings....."

So then why try to divide the humanity by suggesting that monotheism is somehow the superior vision when it comes to human spirituality?