A warning and a call to Baha’is from Baha’u’llah’s Universal House of Justice

[paarsurrey]

Depends on the in-coming people. Some adjust quickly, one don't. People who came earlier than Muslims adjusted quickly. Muslims and Christians had their insistence on one God as propounded by Muhammad and Jesus, and acted against the majority. They have not been able to adjust to India completely. But still, life goes on, they continue to prosper in India..

"Depends on the in-coming people. Some adjust quickly, one don't. People who came earlier than Muslims adjusted quickly."

Didn't the Aryans drove the indigenous people out from the cities, green meadows and made them an untouchable lower class dalits* out of even the varna they established?
Is it the "quick merge"?

Regards
__________
*Dalit, meaning "broken/scattered" in Sanskrit and Hindi, is a term mostly used for the castes in India that have been subjected to untouchability. Dalits were excluded from the four-fold varna system of Hinduism and were seen as forming a fifth varna, also known by the name of Panchama. Dalits now profess various religious beliefs, including Buddhism, Christianity and Sikhism.
Dalit - Wikipedia

 

[paarsurrey]

That’s actually a really good question. In my country the indigenous people are the Maori and the Europeans colonised during the 19th century.

How are the Muslims seen in ‘tolerant’ India? Indigenous or outsiders?

They* call Muslims, specially the Aryans*- who invaded India earlier, as outsiders.

Regards
_____________
* #254

 

[paarsurrey]

@adrian009 @Marcion @paarsurrey @siti @Tony Bristow-Stagg

I’ll need to go back through the whole thread with the new possibilities that I’m seeing in mind. I’ll be looking for ideas that I might have missed, about what people can do on the Internet, to help change popular attitudes and behavior. I’ll also be reading both letters again.

One question I want to discuss is what changes to aim for in attitudes and behavior. Another is what people can do on the Internet, to help bring about those changes. If anyone has any stories to tell about what you’ve been trying to do, and hoping to do, to help bring about widespread changes in attitudes and behavior, I would like to see those. If anyone would like to see my stories, let me know.

For now I want to try to describe some changes in attitudes and behavior that I’m aiming for, and some thoughts about how to practice and promote them. One way of describing what I’m aiming for is moving away from adversarial attitudes and behavior across ideological dividing lines, and towards working side by side as friends and companions with people across those lines, to help improve the world for all people everywhere, ignoring those lines.

The possible impact of Internet discussions on that might be very small, but I don’t think it’s zero. Considering the urgency of it, I want everything I do on the Internet to serve that purpose, to help move people away from adversarial attitudes and behavior across ideological dividing lines, and towards working side by side as friends and companions to help improve the world for all people everywhere, ignoring those dividing lines.

I’ll describe some things I’ve been learning to do, and hoping to do, for that purpose. First, to work continually to move my own attitudes and behavior more in that direction. One way I’ve done that is by spending time in blogs and forums of some of people whose ideas and interests seemed most contrary to mine, trying to practice fellowship with them, to learn from them, to see things their way, and to see the good in them and what they’re doing. Another thing I’ve been trying and hoping to learn is to be better friends with more people. Now I’m trying to learn to bring these issues up for discussion, in ways that might lead to fruitful and beneficial conversations. I’d also like to learn to help provide the kind of encouragement and support that really helps, to each person on their path of progress. I’ve been able to do that on a few rare occasions, but I’d like to learn to do it more.

Another thing that I’m hoping to see is some kind of online parallel to a kind of community development that I’ve seen offline, where people in a neighborhood or village are working together to help make their community life healthier, happier, and more loving for everyone in it.

"I’ll need to go back through the whole thread with the new possibilities that I’m seeing in mind. I’ll be looking for ideas that I might have missed, about what people can do on the Internet, to help change popular attitudes and behavior. I’ll also be reading both letters again." Unquote

Are you finished revisiting the posts in the thread.
If yes, then tell us the result of this measure so that we are on the topic again.

Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

I’ve read all the posts again, looking for ideas about changes that are needed in popular attitudes and behavior, and what any of us might be able to do to help.

Changes needed in popular attitudes and behavior:

1. Stop trying to discredit other people’s religions and their followers.
2. Stop arguing with people when they’re trying to discredit us and our religion.
3. Move away from an adversarial attitude towards people across religious dividing lines, towards working side by side with them, as friends and companions, to help make the world better for all people everywhere, ignoring those lines.
4. Stop playing “my religion is better than your religion.”
5. Stop aimlessly and endlessly debating about ideologies.
6. Stop trying to proclaim and teach our religion to people against their will.
7. Stop painting groups of people with one broad stroke.
8. Allow each to see reality and God in their own way.
9. Approach interfaith dialogue with a desire to learn new things from others.
10. Cultivate both within ourselves and in the social spaces around us a much more profound sense of the interconnectedness of humanities religious experience.

How any of us might be able to help:

1. Community building at a grassroots levels.
2. Remember we’re all on a journey and be patient and kind.
3. Continual efforts to practice, ourselves, the changes that are needed in popular attitudes and behavior.
4. Learn to be better friends with more people.
5. Bring these issues up for discussion.
6. Remember our own imperfections

That brings me to page 8. I need to go to bed now.

Hi Jim,

I’ve just finished a busy week with attending an emergency medicine course.

You have started a thread with the intention of improving the online behaviour and attitudes of Baha’is on this thread. Of the Baha’is that are here, only Tony and I have responded.

I believe it’s useful to reflect on what we are doing and why, so I’ve taken the time to consider your OP.

I appreciate you have offered a list of reflections from your extensive online experience. It’s up to each of us to model the changes we wish to see in the world. Let’s see what emerges. Thanks again for posting.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Momen’s writings about the feuding look like vindictive smear campaigns to me, masquerading as scholarship, just as much as Cole’s.

I’ve never seen Momen in that way.

 

[sayak83]

That is a nice arrangement of deception you have produced. Passages used out of context, unauthorized translations taken from hate sites.

If it makes you happy, so be it.

Peace be with you.

Regards Tony

could you reproduce these passages as translated in an accepted Bahai source.
that would be useful.

 

[Jim]

You have started a thread with the intention of improving the online behaviour and attitudes of Baha’is on this thread.

I’m not sure what you mean by that, or if you even said what you meant. I’m not try to improve the attitudes and behavior of Baha’is on this thread. What I said to Tony was just a plea for him to stop helping people vandalize this discussion. It was not aimed at improving his attitudes and behavior in general.

I’m choosing to take positive action to try to help change what kinds of attitudes and behavior are popular in Internet discussions. This thread is part of that. If you disapprove of that and don’t want to be part of it, I have no problem with that. Even if no one wants to be part of that, I have no problem with that, either. I expected people to try to vandalize the discussion, and I was surprised not to see it happen sooner. I also expected Baha’is to help them by arguing with them. As I said, all of that can help serve my purposes, but I think there are better things that people with friendly can do, and they might like to know that. I thought Tony’s intentions might be friendly enough that he would want to know that he was trampling all over what I’m trying to do in this thread.

If no one wants to be part of what I’m trying to do, I have no problem with that, but I’m not sure that’s true. I’m informing people of what they can do to help me if they want to, and part of that is to stay on topic, and to ignore attempts to derail the discussion, other than to report them, which I started doing a page or two ago.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I’m not sure what you mean by that, or if you even said what you meant. I’m not try to improve the attitudes and behavior of Baha’is on this thread. What I said to Tony was just a plea for him to stop helping people vandalize this discussion. It was not aimed at improving his attitudes and behavior in general.

I’m choosing to take positive action to try to help change what kinds of attitudes and behavior are popular in Internet discussions. This thread is part of that. If you disapprove of that and don’t want to be part of it, I have no problem with that. Even if no one wants to be part of that, I have no problem with that, either. I expected people to try to vandalize the discussion, and I was surprised not to see it happen sooner. I also expected Baha’is to help them by arguing with them. As I said, all of that can help serve my purposes, but I think there are better things that people with friendly can do, and they might like to know that. I thought Tony’s intentions might be friendly enough that he would want to know that he was trampling all over what I’m trying to do in this thread.

If no one wants to be part of what I’m trying to do, I have no problem with that, but I’m not sure that’s true. I’m informing people of what they can do to help me if they want to, and part of that is to stay on topic, and to ignore attempts to derail the discussion, other than to report them, which I started doing a page or two ago.

What I meant was improving the attitudes and behaviours of Baha’is on this forum, not this thread. Sorry about the confusion.

I’m not too focused on your discussion with Tony but will get to that soon. What I will say is that Tony is firm in the Covenant. That’s a quality I value.

In regards approval or disapproval of your OP I’m just reflecting.

I’m not too sure who you consider to be ‘vandalising’ this thread, and I doubt if reporting them to the moderators will make any difference.
The remedy is to remain positively focused on the OP. I have no problem with either clarifying the Baha’i perspective or silence. The document in question highlights the enormous confusion that exists in the world regarding religion and how Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation can cut through the tangle of inconsistencies to bring much needed light.

I’m in a good space about being on RF. How about you?

 

[Jim]

What I meant was improving the attitudes and behaviours of Baha’is on this forum, not this thread

Closer, but still not there. Originally I was thinking of attitudes and behavior of Baha’is all over the Internet, not just here. Now I’m thinking of popular attitudes and behavior in Internet discussions, in general. Discussions like this might be part of what will help change popular attitudes and behavior in Internet discussions, in ways that will help reduce religious animosities and hostilities, online and offline. It may or may not be of more interest to Baha’is because of its references to a message from the Universal House of Justice.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

could you reproduce these passages as translated in an accepted Bahai source.
that would be useful.

Thank you sayak83. I will not say much more, I am obviously confused as to what Jim wants with this thread. So best I am silent until I clearly see the intent.

As a note any translation that does not go back to the Baha'i Library should be looked at with caution. There are a couple in that post that are inaccurate translations used on sites that wish to discredit Baha'u'llah and the Bahai intent.

The other quotes are from the right source, but the poster added an intent that is not in those quotes. They have to be put in context with Baha'i Law.

All passages that talk about conquering mankind, is only with words of wisdom and good deeds. Being steadfast and staunch in doing this, is what builds the fear that is talked about. Fear that motivates posts like the one we are currently discussing.

I am always happy to talk about our unity, if others have a fear of that and post an intent that is not in the Writings or in our heart, I will always try to show them that is not so.

As of now I will not respond further to this post, unless the wisdom of what Jim wants out of this OP becomes apparent to me.

Peace be with you and all. Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Closer, but still not there. Originally I was thinking of attitudes and behavior of Baha’is all over the Internet, not just here. Now I’m thinking of popular attitudes and behavior in Internet discussions, in general. Discussions like this might be part of what will help change popular attitudes and behavior in Internet discussions, in ways that will help reduce religious animosities and hostilities, online and offline. It may or may not be of more interest to Baha’is because of its references to a message from the Universal House of Justice.

RF is the only internet group I’m currently active on. The Universal House of Justice doesn’t emphasise internet activity as a focus for us to share Bahá’u’lláh’s Message with others instead asking us to become more aware of the social spaces in our communities.

Online discussion forums are still a relatively new phenomenon with widespread involvement on the World Wide Web since the 1990s. I think it’s important Baha’is represent their faith accurately and reflect the spirit of the Faith through their attitudes. All the best with your efforts to exemplify the changes you want to promote.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Didn't the Aryans drove the indigenous people out from the cities, green meadows and made them an untouchable lower class dalits* out of even the varna they established? Is it the "quick merge"?

Your knowledge about Aryans as with many other things is woefully inadequate. And you hardly have a desire or the capacity to learn about it. Aryans did not have any form of untouchability. Aryans did not drive the locals out of any city. They had marital relations with the indigenous people and mixed with them (in time, completely, so as not to leave even a sliver of difference). Untouchability came up much later, in the Gupta time. Sage Vedavyasa who compiled the Vedas and wrote Bramha Sutra and Bhagawat Purana, was a shudra, and so was his son, Vidura, a friend of Krishna and considered one of the wisest men in Hinduism. The Kauravas and Pandavas also had mixed blood. Their great-grandmother, wife of Emperor Shantanu, Queen Satyavati, was a local fisherman's daughter.

 

[Aupmanyav]

They call Muslims, specially the Aryans (?)- who invaded India earlier, as outsiders.

Yes, initially when people come from other countries, they are outsiders, but in time they become part of the general mass of people. That happened with all those, who came to India, as invaders or as migrants. They included many kinds of people - Aryans, Sakas, Greeks, Parthians, Persians, Pashtoons (Pakthas), Kambojas, Jews, Christians, Kushanas, Huns; and in later times Zoroastrians and Muslims. Also the Tibeto-Burmans in the East.

Since Aryans are not the subject of this topic, let us stop discussing them here (it is Jim's thread). But you are welcome to start a thread somewhere else where we can continue these discussions.

 

[Dawnofhope]

"One Common Faith" means Baha'is will eradicate all religions and convert everyone to Baha'ism:

"We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; that all nations shall become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men shall be strengthened; that diversity of religion shall cease and differences of race be annulled. So it shall ,be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the 'Most Great Peace' shall come (Baha'u'llah)." (Star of the West, Vol. 3, no. 7) http://starofthewest.info/Vol03/large/SOTW_Vol03_129.gif​

However what Baha'is will never tell you is that this conversion is not meant to come by peaceful means but rather in a genocidal form. Three translations are provided below of what Baha'u'llah's writes in Āthār-i Qalam-i A`lā, vol. 2, no. 90, p. 587

"God will soon take out from the sleeves of power the hands of strength and dominance and will make the Servant (Bahā’u’llāh) victorious and will cleanse the earth from the filth of every rejected polytheist (deniers of Baha’ism). And they will stand by the cause and will conquer the lands using my mighty eternal name and will enter the lands and they will be feared by all the servants." (Translation by Hossein Akhoondali, Twelve Principles book)

"Erelong shall God draw forth, out of the bosom of power, the hands of ascendancy and might, and shall raise up a people who will arise to win victory for this Youth and who will purge mankind from the defilement of the outcast and the ungodly. These hands will gird up their loins to champion the Faith of God, and will, in My name the Self-Subsistent, the Mighty, subdue the peoples and kindreds of the earth. They will enter the cities and will inspire with fear the hearts of all their inhabitants." (Translation from The Summons of the Lord of Hosts)

"God shall send forth from the sleeves of Might the hands [Hands] of power and victory, and certain people to assist this Servant, and to cleanse the earth from the impurity of every abandoned polytheist, and they shall arise in favor of this matter, and open the countries in My Name, the Powerful, the Self-existent, and enter their boundaries, and their threats shall overtake all the servants" (Translated by Anton Haddad)​

There is a reason that Baha'is are ordered to do this:

"Be thou as a flame of fire to My enemies and a river of life eternal to My loved" (Baha'u'llah)​

and this:

“And you, O friends of God, be clouds of grace for those who believe in God and his signs, and be certain torment for those who do not believe in God and are polytheists (deniers of Baha’ism),” Baha’u’llah, Majmu`iy-i alwah-i mubarak-ih, p. 216.​

As stated by another these are verses taken out of context or translations from those who are hostile to the Baha’i Faith.

Are you a Muslim?

Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Thank you sayak83. I will not say much more, I am obviously confused as to what Jim wants with this thread. So best I am silent until I clearly see the intent.

As a note any translation that does not go back to the Baha'i Library should be looked at with caution. There are a couple in that post that are inaccurate translations used on sites that wish to discredit Baha'u'llah and the Bahai intent.

The other quotes are from the right source, but the poster added an intent that is not in those quotes. They have to be put in context with Baha'i Law.

All passages that talk about conquering mankind, is only with words of wisdom and good deeds. Being steadfast and staunch in doing this, is what builds the fear that is talked about. Fear that motivates posts like the one we are currently discussing.

I am always happy to talk about our unity, if others have a fear of that and post an intent that is not in the Writings or in our heart, I will always try to show them that is not so.

As of now I will not respond further to this post, unless the wisdom of what Jim wants out of this OP becomes apparent to me.

Peace be with you and all. Regards Tony

Just as I expected. This is how Baha'i translation practice works:

a- Do not translate problematic passages from the scripture.
b- If you do translate those passages, water them down.
c- If a non-Baha'i translates those passages shoot the messenger without making the slightest effort of providing a correct translation.

Now lets take a closer look at those passages that Tony claims are not authorized:

"Be thou as a flame of fire to My enemies and a river of life eternal to My loved" (Baha'u'llah)

The source for this is: Bahá’í Prayers: A Selection of Prayers Revealed by Bahá’u’lláh, the Báb, and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá (US Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1991 edition), p. 211.
This is an official Baha'i translation taken directly from the Baha'i reference library. You can read it here.

"We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; that all nations shall become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men shall be strengthened; that diversity of religion shall cease and differences of race be annulled. So it shall ,be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the 'Most Great Peace' shall come (Baha'u'llah)." (Star of the West, Vol. 3, no. 7) http://starofthewest.info/Vol03/large/SOTW_Vol03_129.gif

The source for this Quote is a Baha'i magazine called Star of the West. For decades, this was the official magazine of the Baha'is endorsed by Baha'i leaders Shoghi and Abdu'l-Baha.

1-"God will soon take out from the sleeves of power the hands of strength and dominance and will make the Servant (Bahā’u’llāh) victorious and will cleanse the earth from the filth of every rejected polytheist (deniers of Baha’ism). And they will stand by the cause and will conquer the lands using my mighty eternal name and will enter the lands and they will be feared by all the servants."

(Translation by Hossein Akhoondali, Twelve Principles book)

2- "Erelong shall God draw forth, out of the bosom of power, the hands of ascendancy and might, and shall raise up a people who will arise to win victory for this Youth and who will purge mankind from the defilement of the outcast and the ungodly. These hands will gird up their loins to champion the Faith of God, and will, in My name the Self-Subsistent, the Mighty, subdue the peoples and kindreds of the earth. They will enter the cities and will inspire with fear the hearts of all their inhabitants." (Translation from The Summons of the Lord of Hosts)

3- "God shall send forth from the sleeves of Might the hands [Hands] of power and victory, and certain people to assist this Servant, and to cleanse the earth from the impurity of every abandoned polytheist, and they shall arise in favor of this matter, and open the countries in My Name, the Powerful, the Self-existent, and enter their boundaries, and their threats shall overtake all the servants" (Translated by Anton Haddad)

No. 2 is the official (somewhat watered down) Baha'i translation of this text by the Baha'i leader Shoghi Effendi from this source: Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts (Source: Bahá’í World Centre, 2002 edition), p. 20. You can read it here directly on the Official Baha'i Library.

No. 3 is an older official Baha'i translation of the same text with this accompanying text in the original publication:

"Baha'i Scriptures, Selections from the Utterances of Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha" Edited by Horace Holley,
Approved by Baha'i Committee on Publications, 1923
Second Edition
New York
Brentano's Publisher's
Copyright, 1923, by Brentano's, Inc.
Copyright, 1928 Baha'i Publishing Committee​

You can read it here.

No. 1 is part of a comprehensive work that analyzes the Twelve Supposedly novel Baha'i teachings called: "Twelve Principles: A Comprehensive Investigation On The Baha'i Teachings" The book is online on google books here and a PDF can be downloaded here.

“And you, O friends of God, be clouds of grace for those who believe in God and his signs, and be certain torment for those who do not believe in God and are polytheists (deniers of Baha’ism),” Baha’u’llah, Majmu`iy-i alwah-i mubarak-ih, p. 216.

Don't expect Baha'is to translate this even in a watered down version. The translation is taken from "Twelve Principles: A Comprehensive Investigation On The Baha'i Teachings" but you can read the original Arabic on the official Baha'i library starting at line 4 here and here is a google translation

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

As stated by another these are verses taken out of context or translations from those who are hostile to the Baha’i Faith.

Are you a Muslim?

Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia

Congratulations. You just proved the point I made at the beginning of the previous post by SHOOTING THE MESSENGER.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Congratulations. You just proved the point I made at the beginning of the previous post by SHOOTING THE MESSENGER.

I note that one of the links posted in the message #318 to Tony included a book written by Shi’a Muslims that is clearly a polemic against the Baha’i Faith.

Twelve Principles

Baha'is have no human rights in Iran.

As noted by one who as reviewed the book:

Their holy sites are desecrated, their graveyards bulldozed, their elected leaders executed under a sham pretext or simply "disappeared" without a trial.
See: Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia for an overview

If you want to read the thinking and justification for people who live in a country like that - and then decide the best use of their lives is to spend their time writing books attacking the Baha'i Faith, then this book is an excellent resource.
Those looking for a fair-minded investigation of the Baha'i Faith can look elsewhere.

So now the source of this ‘Baha’i’ quotation of yours is clarified.

The other quotes are simply taken out of context and you have assigned meanings contradictory to the Baha’i Writings. This can be easily demonstrated to anyone with a genuine interest in what Baha’u’llah actually teaches.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Congratulations. You just proved the point I made at the beginning of the previous post by SHOOTING THE MESSENGER.

Link to your comments page - If one looks at your postings the intent is very clear.

https://www.religiousforums.com/search/31130378/

Sorry Jim, deception is deception.

Regards Tony

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Shoot the messenger. That is the Baha'i method. Instead of responding to to the argument they attack the messenger. Wow that's pathetic.

 

[Aupmanyav]

OK, remove one quote, you are still left with two.