A warning and a call to Baha’is from Baha’u’llah’s Universal House of Justice

[oldbadger]

Because of the advocacy and pressure of many countries and the United Nations its become difficult for the Iranian government to execute its citizens because they are Baha'is. Instead they harrass the Baha'is by imprisoning them for long periods of time for no good reason.

Bahá'í 7 - Wikipedia

So we finally get an indirect answer to the question:-
Circa 5000 persons have been hanged in Iran over the last ten years, how many of these were Bahais?

And it would appear that you're telling us now that NONE have been executed?


Now..... to your claim above that Bahais get imprisoned 'for long periods of time' for no reason.
How many Bahais have been imprisoned for long sentences, on what convictions, over the last ten years. ??

OB....... Facts before misinformation

 

[Dawnofhope]

Since the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, Baha'is have been systematically persecuted as a matter of government policy. During the first decade of this persecution, more than 200 Baha'is were killed or executed, hundreds more were tortured or imprisoned, and tens of thousands lost jobs, access to education, and other rights – all solely because of their religious belief.


Government-led attacks on the country’s largest non-Muslim religious minority have re-intensified over the last 12 years. Since 2005, more than 1006 Baha'is have been arrested, and the number of Baha'is in prison has risen from fewer than five to more than 100 at one point. It is currently 97. The list of prisoners includes six members of a former leadership group serving the Baha'i community of Iran. The seventh, Mahvash Sabet, was released after completing her 10-year sentence on 18 September 2017. In 2010, the seven were wrongly sentenced to 20 years in prison, the longest term then facing any prisoner of conscience in Iran. In late 2015, reports indicated that their sentences have been belatedly reduced from 20 years to 10 years, in line with changes to the Iranian Penal Code introduced in May 2013.


The constant threat of raids, arrests, and detention or imprisonment is among the main features of Iran’s persecution of Baha’is today. In all, at least 84 Baha'is have been arrested so far in 2017, up from a total of 81 in 2016 and 56 in 2015, evidence that the persecution is not subsiding.

Current situation

 

[Dawnofhope]

Since 2005, there have been at least 68 documented instances of physical violence against Baha'is, ranging from simple assault to murder, all of which have gone unprosecuted. These include:

• The killing of Mr. Farhang Amiri on 25 September 2016, as noted above. In July 2017, his confessed killers were released on bail, an indication of the government's unwillingness to punish those who attack Baha'is.
  
• The assasination-style murder in August 2013 of Ataollah Rezvani in the city of Bandar Abbas. Mr. Rezvani was wellknown as a Bahá’í in the city and much respected for his honesty and helpfulness. Ministry of Intelligence agents, however, managed to get him dismissed from his work and they pressured him to leave the city. Shortly before his death, he had begun receiving menacing telephone calls from unknown persons. His killing also came after senior local clerics in the city attempted to incite the population against Bahá’ís. The Baha'i International Community has said the murder should be treated as a hate crime, and it has called for an investigation. Since 2005 in Iran, at least nine Baha’is have been murdered or died under suspicious circumstances.

Current situation

 

[Marcion]

Jews believe that when the Messiah comes they will be recognized as the “chosen ones” and they will regain the standing they lost when Jesus came. The Torah will be declared the official Book of God for everyone, and everyone will follow the Torah forever. I know this because I have had extended conversations with Jews on another forum. Talk about arrogant.

Of course they will never recognize Baha’u’llah because He has His own Writings, not the Torah. From a Baha’i point of view, the Jews misinterpreted their scriptures just like Christians did. They both believe that their scriptures are the only scriptures and their religion is the only religion for all eternity. But how could they both be right, given they disagree about whether Jesus was even sent by God? This is too much of a mess to clean up without a new religion being revealed, and that is one reason Baha’u’llah came.

So it seems that your preceptor Baha'u'llah believed (and all Baha'i followers with him) that he had a god-given power of discrimination to correctly judge the value of all the older religions and to declare his own ideology as an improvement of the universal religion for the modern times for all people and that this would be the best universal religion for the coming thousand years.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it seems that your preceptor Baha'u'llah believed (and all Baha'i followers with him) that he had a god-given power of discrimination to correctly judge the value of all the older religions and to declare his own ideology as an improvement of the universal religion for the modern times for all people and that this would be the best universal religion for the coming thousand years.

No, Baha'u'llah did not discriminate of judge the older religions or declare His own ideology an improvement. As a Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah had the power to abrogate all the all the previous Dispensations, but He upheld the eternal verities they enshrine and recognized the Divine origin of their Authors.

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.” God Passes By, p. 100​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, Baha'u'llah did not discriminate of judge the older religions or declare His own ideology an improvement. As a Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah had the power to abrogate all the all the previous Dispensations, but He upheld the eternal verities they enshrine and recognized the Divine origin of their Authors.

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.” God Passes By, p. 100​

I think that quote is the Challenge for us all that the document 'One Common Faith' presents.

It is the challenge that all Manifestations of God have presented, this age it is global.

Then we also have to know the remedy is always offered with no compulsion for anybody to accept.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

I was asked to produce evidence. That is all it is, the requested evidence to what I said in a post some way back. That the Baha'i are thanked for contributing to Peace and Unity.

Regards Tony

And what a weak production that was.......
We understand that there is little peace, even between the Bahais of the World, from what we have been reading.....

 

[oldbadger]

Murder of a Baha'i in Yazd and Inquiry About the Rights of Baha'is - Iran Press Watch
Dated December 7th 2016

And how quickly the Iranian police investigated all, and arrested the murderers. Not bad for a country that doesn't bother about its Bahai residents.

While the Baha’i community refers to the murder of 63-year-old Farhang Amiri as a religious hatred killing, Colonel Mohammad Reza Mazidi, the social deputy of the Yazd province police chief, told ISNA that “a two million Toumans (approx $6,230) financial dispute was the motive for the murder of the 63-year-old in Qasim Abad in Yazd.” Colonel Mazidi has added that police officers were able to arrest the killers quickly.

 

[oldbadger]

What has this got to do with anything? That's at most a hate crime by an ordinary citizen if other motives were not involved.

Reading back through the Baha'i responses in this thread it seems that since Baha'is can't respond to allegations using normal reasonable arguments, they are playing the Iran/Muslim phobia card to divert attention from the main issue.

Good points.....
It was over money, and the Iranian police caught and arrested the murderers. I expect that they might have been sentenced to death for such a crime? Bahais seem to get the same protection as anybody else.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And what a weak production that was.......
We understand that there is little peace, even between the Bahais of the World, from what we have been reading.....

I would suggest that views are formed from what people choose to read in relation to the view they wish to support.

The continued United Nations resolutions against this injustice would strongly suggest there is truth behind what is being offered.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Since 2005, more than 1006 Baha'is have been arrested, and the number of Baha'is in prison has risen from fewer than five to more than 100 at one point. It is currently 97.

How easy this is..........

Figures for Iran's prison population....... show that 284 persons are held in prison per 100,000 residents.

Iran | World Prison Brief
IRAN Prison population total (including pre-trial detainees / remand prisoners)
230 000 at June 2017 (national prison administration)
Prison population rate (per 100,000 of national population) 284

That is a high figure for incarcerations but not as bad as the United States of America, where 655 persons are incarcerated per population of 100,000

But the facts that you have presented us with show that the Iranmian government is not picking upon the Bahai po;pulationm, which I understand is 300,000 persons at this time:-
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=number+of+baha'is+in+iran&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNxqi5mK3dAhVSTMAKHZ9eC8UQ1QIIcygC&biw=1002&bih=474
The religion now has more than five million followers around the world—at least 300,000 in Iran.


So for Bahai prisoners to be held in balance with the rest of the Iranian people there would need to be
3 x 284 = 852 prisoners
But there are only 95 Bahai prisoners.

Another Bahai claim found to be misinformation?

OB. ............ FACTS BEFORE MISINFORMATION
,

 

[oldbadger]

I would suggest that views are formed from what people choose to read in relation to the view they wish to support.

The continued United Nations resolutions against this injustice would strongly suggest there is truth behind what is being offered.

Regards Tony

Resolutions? Could we just see in print what the UNITED NATIONS has RESOLVED officially? That would be an official document, which would be passed/supported by the nations.

This stuff sounds great over dinner tables (whatever), but this is a forum with some quite switched on members.....

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Resolutions? Could we just see in print what the UNITED NATIONS has RESOLVED officially? That would be an official document, which would be passed/supported by the nations.

This stuff sounds great over dinner tables (whatever), but this is a forum with some quite switched on members.....

They are available here

United Nations Documents Referencing the Baha'i Community

2016 extract;

16. Expresses serious concern about ongoing severe limitations and restrictions on the right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion or belief, restrictions on the establishment of places of worship, attacks against places of
worship and burial and other human rights violations, including but not limited to
harassment, persecution, arbitrary arrests and detention, denial of access to education and incitement to hatred that leads to violence against persons belonging to recognized and unrecognized religious minorities, including Christians, Jews, Sufi Muslims, Sunni Muslims, Yarsanis, Zoroastrians and members of the Baha’i faith and their defenders in the Islamic Republic of Iran, and calls upon the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran to release all religious practitioners imprisoned for their membership in or activities on behalf of a recognized or unrecognized minority religious group, including the seven Baha’i leaders declared by the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention of the Human Rights Council to have
been arbitrarily detained since 2008, and to eliminate, in law and in practice, all forms of discrimination, including economic restrictions, such as the closure or confiscation of businesses and properties, the cancellation of licences and denial of employment in certain public and private sectors, including government or military positions and elected office, and other human rights violations against persons belonging to recognized and unrecognized religious minorities;

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Resolutions? Could we just see in print what the UNITED NATIONS has RESOLVED officially? That would be an official document, which would be passed/supported by the nations.

This stuff sounds great over dinner tables (whatever), but this is a forum with some quite switched on members.....

These are the reports;

United Nations statements - Bahá’í World News Service

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

16. Expresses ................ denial of access to education and incitement to hatred that leads to violence against persons belonging to recognized and unrecognized religious minorities, including Christians, Jews, .............................

No Tony........ I want to stop you right there.
We've already seen on previous threads that Iranian Jews live safely in Iran but that they should keep their opinions about Israel to themselves. In fact I have read that Iranian Jews feel that Iran is safer than countries like France.

The denial of access to education is all about denying various religions the right to vary away from the national curriculum, and would-you-believe-it but that's the law here in the UK as well, we close down schools, withdraw funding or fine them if they continue to vary from the national curriculum in favour of other lesson plans.

Tony, you must be aware by now that some members including myself are very very cautious and wary of nearly every Bahai claim made. Past threads have not shown Bahai in the best of lights......... and I didn't come to those threads initially as a challenger but as a friend! But the last several threads have set me against Bahai for ever.

 

[Vinayaka]

Tony, you must be aware by now that some members including myself are very very cautious and wary of nearly every Bahai claim made. Past threads have not shown Bahai in the best of lights......... and I didn't come to those threads initially as a challenger but as a friend! But the last several threads have set me against Bahai for ever.

I'm in the same boat. It's a very fine line to walk. On one hand, I feel a need to counter the claims, as some are so out there, and on the other hand, I don't like upsetting people, because they all seem to get so defensive and upset at the slightest hint of 'not quite their way' or any difference of opinion at all. So maybe it's time to fold 'em again. Too bad really. We've had a few good discussions.

On this line, there are several ongoing civil wars where governments or small rebel forces kill people, not just harass or imprison them. But we don't hear any protesting by Baha'is about that. The net casualties in the Sri Lankan civil war, which I'm very close to, was at least 40 000, many innocent civilians. I still won't go there, even though I've been invited almost ad nauseum.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No Tony........ I want to stop you right there.
We've already seen on previous threads that Iranian Jews live safely in Iran but that they should keep their opinions about Israel to themselves. In fact I have read that Iranian Jews feel that Iran is safer than countries like France.

The denial of access to education is all about denying various religions the right to vary away from the national curriculum, and would-you-believe-it but that's the law here in the UK as well, we close down schools, withdraw funding or fine them if they continue to vary from the national curriculum in favour of other lesson plans.

Tony, you must be aware by now that some members including myself are very very cautious and wary of nearly every Bahai claim made. Past threads have not shown Bahai in the best of lights......... and I didn't come to those threads initially as a challenger but as a friend! But the last several threads have set me against Bahai for ever.

You must see it as you choose to. It is very fortunate thay you and I can have our views with no persecution.

That the UN has made these resolutions, is evidence enough that these things are happening. If one does not see it as evidence, then one must see it is based on lies, or is more willing to accept the views of those that do persecute.

Time will tell if you're taken justice into all our decisions.

Also this is the last I will discuss about this, out of respect and aknowledgement of those that are persecuted.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

On this line, there are several ongoing civil wars where governments or small rebel forces kill people, not just harass or imprison them. But we don't hear any protesting by Baha'is about that. The net casualties in the Sri Lankan civil war, which I'm very close to, was at least 40 000, many innocent civilians. I still won't go there, even though I've been invited almost ad nauseum.

We do not deny this is happening either.

There will be Baha'i in all those places living and teaching peace, most likely putting their lives on the line.

Good on all people working for justice and peace and all that acknowledge injustice.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Jews and Christians being people of the book have usually been a protected people under Islam. The Qur'an specifically mentions Moses and Christ being prophets that brought the Torah and Gospels.

Dhimmi - Wikipedia

Baha'is are afforded no such protection.

 

[Vinayaka]

The UN makes a lot of resolutions.

Resolutions adopted by the United Nations Security Council in 2018