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A woman's rage

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
We know he did... the fact checking websites were all over his several falsehoods.
You don't know that he lied about assaulting Ford.
There's simply no physical evidence, nor is there any
witness corroboration of the elderly accusation.
Moreover, your perspective is one sided, ie, don't
address Ford's shortcoming, but cite any of of Kavanaugh's.
But the GOP simply didn't care, even though LYING to congress was their "justification" for impeaching Clinton.
Hypocrites? Yep-- the whole lot of'em.
GOP, Democrats....both (not all individuals though) a basket of....you know.
 
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Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
You don't know that he lied about assaulting Ford..

I did not say that-- I said he LIED, and he knew he lied-- we have his video record, lying. I didn't specify which lies we know for sure are lies. But lie he did-- repeatedly.

If he lied about stupid, unimportant sh88? It's not a great leap that he lied about being a serial rapist too.

We have countless examples of women and men, who knew him back in the day, who made disparaging remarks about his character-- or, rather the utter lack of any.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So what you are saying is unproven, untried stats should carry the same weigh as proven in law stats? I dont see the logic of that.
To say "carry the same weight" is inapplicable when establishing the scope of a problem.
The lack of adjudication for every rape doesn't mean it didn't happen. To gauge how
many unproven rapes occur is an important issue...as it is for other crimes, since most
go unsolved.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
To say "carry the same weight" is inapplicable when establishing the scope of a problem.
The lack of adjudication for every rape doesn't mean it didn't happen. To gauge how
many unproven rapes occur is an important issue...as it is for other crimes, since most
go unsolved.

Not to be included in stats for proven cases
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
OK.

I argue that both women & men should be concerned about
assault, despite the fact that proven cases are extremely rare.
Ref....
Rape in the United States - Wikipedia

Concerned, of course, pro-active, certainly, logging and recording all reported sexual assaults, without doubt, fudging stats, never.

Proven cases are proven cases.

Unproven cases are not proven so dont go in the proven pile, but the reported pile, they may (highly probable) be genuine or may not be genuine.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I agree that women understand better what it's like to be a woman, but this isn't really about that. It's about women and their perspective about men and the potential danger of men as violent rapists. The article linked by the OP suggested that "men would understand better" if they were kicked in the groin, but it also elaborated further by suggesting that it's also a matter of trying to size up situations. So, to carry through with the same analogy, a man would need to similarly size up who might kick them in the groin or not.

But in reality, men do have to size up other men in situations where there might be potential for confrontation or possibly violence. It may be an innate survival skill coupled with hard experience and a learned ability at situational awareness. Those of us who grew up in rough neighborhoods understand this and gain a certain street sense in the process. Men do understand violence and abuse, as men make up the majority of perpetrators and victims in that category. So, the notion that "men don't understand" just doesn't wash.

I'll freely admit there are some aspects that I can't understand from the women's point of view, since I'm not a woman. But I do understand that this is all in the context of the recent allegations made against Kavanaugh, along with other recent events, such as Bill Cosby's conviction and the flurry of allegations coming from the #metoo movement.

This is not about "excusing rape," but it's about attempting to chastise and call out men who fail to blindly and instantly believe every accusation that they come across. "You don't believe her! You're excusing rape!"

Rape is a crime. For that reason, it's a matter for law enforcement and the justice system to handle. I've never seen or witnessed a rape in my life. I've never been in a position to prevent or stop a rape, but if I ever find myself in such a position, I would do my best to stop the crime in progress within the boundaries of the law. I think it's unreasonable to expect men to become vigilantes or form lynch mobs, since that kind of thing has tainted our country's history for a long time. It's a matter for the law.

Of course, many women seem to think that it's as simple as "well, men should just stop raping and abusing women," and I agree with that. I also think there should be world peace, global socialism, and a universal brotherhood...er...siblinghood of humanity. But "what should be" and "what is" are always going to be different.

I think the law should punish rapists to its fullest extent, but I also believe there should be justice and fairness in the legal process so that innocent people aren't locked up for crimes they didn't commit.
I agree that we can't simply take allegations of any kind at face value. Our entire justice system is built on that notion - innocent until proven guilty. But I think that compounding victim/witness testimony (that is, as multiple people step forward to accuse) should intensify and expedite investigations into the affairs of the accused. Warrants for things like phone/text records and social media interactions should become extremely easy to get at that point. If there is nothing to be found, and the accused is entirely innocent, then nothing will be found.

I also think a huge part of the problem is the media aspect of these accusations. It is all to easy to tarnish someone's reputation - likely forever - just by publicly accusing them of some trespass like this. If someone were truly intent on falsely accusing someone just to hurt them, then, as things are now, the damage would usually be done as soon as the accuser got the ear of the public. And with the advent of social media, that sort of damage has become basically unstoppable.

As to your comments about men understanding this facet of women, because we have to watch out for the behaviors and aggression of other men - I still stick by the statement that it all points to the category "men", in general, needing challenged with a change in behavior - not women. Men being the ones who need to fix our collective reputation. I mean, being completely honest now... why do you think it is so easy for a woman to tarnish a man's reputation by accusing him in this way? Why does it end up being so easy for women, specifically, to believe the woman's side versus the man's? Sadly, in this particular category of wrong-doing, the less frequent anecdotes end up being those in which the man was "the good guy" and was only falsely accused. Too many men throughout history and into the present have made the bed for all of us. I understand you don't want to lie in it... I don't either. But per your own admission: "'what should be' and 'what is' are always going to be different."
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Concerned, of course, pro-active, certainly, logging and recording all reported sexual assaults, without doubt, fudging stats, never.

Proven cases are proven cases.

Unproven cases are not proven so dont go in the proven pile, but the reported pile, they may (highly probable) be genuine or may not be genuine.
I find no disagreement there.
What a relief, eh!

You've been kind, civil & considered.
Some could watch & learn.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
That is how american politics works, both ways.

Ergo a problem of projection over a political charged event.

What i do care about is spreading understand about abuse if the kav/ford thing does that then cool

Kav/Ford is not going to help those not convinced he did it. Far better to go with JFK or Clinton.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Ergo a problem of projection over a political changed event.

Kav/Ford is not going to help those not convinced he did it. Far better to go with JFK or Clinton.

What? American politics is a problem? Backbiting and cross party sniping occurs constantly in american politics... Its what defines it.

I assume you are not convinced he did it... Am i right?
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
You don't know that he lied about assaulting Ford.
There's simply no physical evidence, nor is there any
witness corroboration of the elderly accusation.
Moreover, your perspective is one sided, ie, don't
address Ford's shortcoming, but cite any of of Kavanaugh's.

GOP, Democrats....both (not all individuals though) a basket of....you know.
He has the right to believe whatever he wants.
I have the right to believe Ford is a sly liar...and she really disgusts me as woman, as professional and as mother.

Kavanaugh is a sweet, caring, gentle man. He always was.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
You may very well be correct, but the idea of kicking men in the groin to "make them understand" doesn't really help the problem. A lot of men do understand, but if women want good men to help them against other men who are scumbags, they need to know exactly what they're asking for. The OP implies that men don't really understand other men, which is a crock of BS. Of course, men understand other men. It goes with the territory.

You get that no-one is suggesting men should be kicked in the groin, right?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
You obviously didn't even bother reading what I wrote. I didn't even say a word about accusations.

The "vast majority of men applauding the thread" come off as obsequious sycophants who are only telling you what you want to hear. They won't tell you the truth. I will, and yet you don't want to hear it because it somehow spoils the false narrative you're trying to convey.

If you're planning on calling me a sycophant, please have the courtesy to say it to my face. Then we can freely explore whether I have a backbone.

Also, 'obsequious' is redundant when used together with 'sycophant'.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
What? American politics is a problem? Backbiting and cross party sniping occurs constantly in american politics... Its what defines it.

Ergo linking the anger to Kav/Ford is projection while attacking the wrong target.

I assume you are not convinced he did it... Am i right?

No he has the presumption of innocence as I hold to the principle outside of court.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Ergo linking the anger to Kav/Ford is projection while attacking the wrong target.



No he has the presumption of innocence as I hold to the principle outside of court.

No its not, it is a valid and topical target

Your opinion is noted, however i read that he is noted for misogyny and is shown to be a liar
 

Shad

Veteran Member
No its not, it is a valid and topical target

Nope as it is projection of anger while ignoring the problems of the very situation and hearing. Misplaced anger makes those that talk about Kav/Ford in relation to other cases of rape sound like hysterical ill-informed mob.

Your opinion is noted, however i read that he is noted for misogyny and is shown to be a liar

Good to see you are told what your opinion is.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Your opinion is noted, however i read that he is noted for misogyny and is shown to be a liar

Just 2 questions:
-is Kavanaugh's psychological profile compatible with a person capable of sexually abusing a woman, even if under the effect of alcohol?
highly improbable

-is Ford's psychological profile compatible with a person capable of lying to serve political interests?
Highly probable
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Just 2 questions:
-is Kavanaugh's psychological profile compatible with a person capable of sexually abusing a woman, even if under the effect of alcohol?
highly improbable

-is Ford's psychological profile compatible with a person capable of lying to serve political interests?
Highly probable

Have you seen kavanaughs psy profile? Then how can you make claims of "highly improbable"

Have you seen fords psy profile? Then how can you make claims of "highly probable"
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Nope as it is projection of anger while ignoring the problems of the very situation and hearing. Misplaced anger makes those that talk about Kav/Ford in relation to other cases of rape sound like hysterical ill-informed mob.



Good to see you are told what your opinion is.

As i said, a topical situation and highly relevant to the article linked in the op. You dont like it then take it up with the author.

Not my opinion, remember, i dont care for american politics, its you pushing that agenda.
 
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