AA kicks out two Toronto secular chapters

[9-10ths_Penguin]

From TheStar.com:

On Tuesday, Toronto’s two secular AA groups, known as Beyond Belief and We Agnostics, were removed or “delisted” from the roster of local meetings. They’ve disappeared from the Toronto AA website and will not be in the next printed edition of the Toronto directory.

The dispute started when Beyond Belief posted an adapted version of AA’s hallowed “Twelve Steps” on the Toronto website. They removed the word “God” from the steps, which are used as a kind of road map to help drinkers achieve sobriety.

“They took issue with a public display of secular AA,” says Joe C., who founded Beyond Belief, Toronto’s first agnostic AA group, 18 months ago. (In keeping with AA’s tradition of anonymity, members are identified by first names only.)

It proved popular enough that a second group started up last fall; it took its name from a chapter in the AA bible entitled Alcoholics Anonymous, commonly known as the Big Book. The group, We Agnostics, had only recently completed the paperwork to be part of AA before being booted out.

I found this especially telling about the impact of this decision, as well as the positive effect of these secular chapters:

One man wept in dismay over the delisting at Beyond Belief’s Thursday night meeting at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education on Bloor Street West. Thirty-two people, mostly men, sat at desks in a classroom.

“I do believe in God,” he said after the meeting. “But you don’t need to believe in God to recover and I don’t think it’s appropriate at AA.”

The meeting opened with a statement that said, in keeping with AA tradition, the group did not endorse or oppose either religious belief or atheism. “Our only wish is to ensure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in AA without having to accept anyone else’s beliefs, or having to deny their own.”

“I’ve tried AA meetings and I couldn’t get past the influence of right-wing Christianity,” said a big, Liam Neeson look-alike.

“Last night I went to a meeting and it was like a sermon again,” he told the group. “I felt I should quit.

“But someone told me, ‘hey, go downtown, there’s an atheist/agnostic meeting.’ So I thought I thought I’d give AA one last chance and I came here.”

What does everyone else think of this? Is it appropriate for the biggest support group for recovering alcoholics to demand religious faith of its members?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What does everyone else think of this? Is it appropriate for the biggest support group for recovering alcoholics to demand religious faith of its members?

Religious belief is the core of AA's program.

 

[Yes Man]

What does everyone else think of this? Is it appropriate for the biggest support group for recovering alcoholics to demand religious faith of its members?

I can understand why higher-ups at AA chose to do this. Some people I've talked to believe that the Higher Power thing has contributed a lot to AA's success; I kind of doubt that. That being said, this feels like a dumb and petty decision on their part. What's the big deal? Is their precious philosophy more important than saving lives? Another example of ridiculous clinging to idealism over pragmatism it seems.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Religious belief is the core of AA's program.

Even when it's emphasized at the expense of recovery from alcoholism?

A question, and I mean it in all seriousness: is AA an addiction recovery program, or an evangelism program for recovering addicts?

 

[Revoltingest]

Religious belief is the core of AA's program.

True dat. A problem is that they're somewhat woven into our legal system. Me smells constitutional trouble with that.

 

[normans]

I thought the only requirement for AA membership is a dersire to stop drinking. Anyone who has this desire has taken the 1st step to recovery. Delisting groups that decide that God has no part in recovery is just plain WRONG.

NormanS

 

[gnomon]

Replacing one delusion with another is the core of AA's minimal success. Actually, it's the social aspect in that people who had an obsession with drinking replace it with an obsession with the group.

This move by the Toronto chapter will probably be seen as going against the principles by the AA community as a whole. Even though I don't have a very positive view of AA as a whole my experience taught me that those groups who did not adhere to strict traditional, aka spiritual, views were more popular, more socially cohesive and thus more successful.

It doesn't take a genius to realize what success AA does have is in people making new social connections sans the booze and not their newfound spiritualism. To kick out some clubhouses, especially when a belief in the group is probably one of the most common "higher powers" which is defined as nothing more than something greater than the self, just goes against the traditions in my opinion.

edit: On second thought, I can see why they were delisted because the 12 steps is AA. Altering the basic core of the program can be seen as altering the entire program and nothing I ever saw in AA or the recovery movement in general will lend towards altering the 12 Steps.

 

[Kathryn]

Wait a minute. AA is a private organization. If an atheist group wants to implement a similar program and leave out the Higher Power stuff - they're free to do so, and more power to them.

 

[gnomon]

Wait a minute. AA is a private organization. If an atheist group wants to implement a similar program and leave out the Higher Power stuff - they're free to do so, and more power to them.

It's a bit more complicated than that in regards to AA.

AA says the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. That's all.

edit: Add to that they are often the only game in town for people to seek help and courts only order people to go to AA.

You also have to realize that quite often someone's "higher power" is the specific AA clubhouse a person attends, Jesus but without the Christian theology or with a heavy dose of the religious theology, Allah, a doorknob, a chair, that funny feeling you get down your spine when you say someone stepped on your grave..........seriously, everything under the sun. Given the bizarre litany of higher powers accepted as long as it keeps you sober than nothing, as in no thing, should qualify just as well.

 

[Jose Fly]

If the US chapters of AA do something similar to this, it could spell legal trouble. Many courts base their sentencing on a person attending and completing the AA program. But if it turns out AA places evangelism before recovery from alcoholism, it could be argued that the government is persuading citizens to attend religiously oriented functions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Wait a minute. AA is a private organization. If an atheist group wants to implement a similar program and leave out the Higher Power stuff - they're free to do so, and more power to them.

As gnomon pointed out, it's a bit more complicated than that, but I wasn't really trying to emphasize the legal aspect. If AA's stated mission is to lead people to sobriety, period, then it's hypocritical of them to act in a way that puts religiosity ahead of recovery... regardless of whether it's legal for them to do it.

 

[Oneatatime]

Its quite disguisting to exploit peoples alcoholism as a means of converting them to Christianity. Plenty of religious charities offer their services without the expectation that those receiving it convert to their religion, mainly because these charities are driven by an urge to help rather than convert.

The actions of AA indicate strongly that helping peoples is a secondary goal to spreading the faith. Especially since it some areas it appears to be the only help available and the courts order people to attend. Surely that is unconstitional?

It concerns me that the current coalition government in the UK is giving contracts to overtly religiously bigoted organisation to provide support services to troubled teenages and victims of domestic violence. I do not understand how a Catholic organisation will support teenages being subject to homophobic abuse which is one contract that has recently been granted.

 

[Songbird]

This is beside the point, but don't studies show that spiritual-based recovery programs are more effective than non-spiritual ones?

 

[Oneatatime]

This is beside the point, but don't studies show that spiritual-based recovery programs are more effective than non-spiritual ones?

Could you provide links to the studies? If such studies do exist and are good studies then this still doesn't mean its ok to require people to subscribe to a particular religion in order to receive support. Its undisguised exploitation.

Support should be provided unconditionally. I wouldn't expect to go to hospital and be told that I need to convert to Islam before they'll treat me so if I was an American alcoholic why should I have to subscribe to Christianity to get help?

 

[Songbird]

Could you provide links to the studies?

I just now briefly looked for links and can't find any, but I found related things that might lead to statistics. I'm sorry if I remembered incorrectly, I might be wrong.

If such studies do exist and are good studies then this still doesn't mean its ok to require people to subscribe to a particular religion in order to receive support. Its undisguised exploitation.

Yeah, that's why I said it's beside the point. And AA isn't supposed to require adherence to a specific religion, just a higher power.

Support should be provided unconditionally. I wouldn't expect to go to hospital and be told that I need to convert to Islam before they'll treat me so if I was an American alcoholic why should I have to subscribe to Christianity to get help?

I agree.

 

[gnomon]

This is beside the point, but don't studies show that spiritual-based recovery programs are more effective than non-spiritual ones?

From the studies I've seen the success rate of all programs towards their stated goals come in with a pretty low success rate. But it's a hard thing to study because you get court appointed attendance to the spiritual programs, or in those areas that have been legally challenged a similar program such as Rational Recovery, which put in people who do not necessarily need to be there.

There are a number of different takes on addiction recovery and all appear to have low success rates when it comes to lifelong abstinence or even long term membership. I could go on about the various reasons for this but suffice it to say that addiction, even what it is, remains a complex topic.

A RAND study from quite a while back supported the idea that people who learn to moderate were perhaps better off than those who abstain from drinking. It's one study and I don't know if anyone has tried to replicate it.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/reports/R1739.html

Years ago I used to have a list of NIAAA studies and others but I don't know what I've done with them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is beside the point, but don't studies show that spiritual-based recovery programs are more effective than non-spiritual ones?

From what I've read, they don't... however, many people think that they do.

IIRC, this came from a report on 12-step programs that looked at rates of relapse by people who went through the program... but they only counted people who finished all 12 steps.

I'll have to dig up the stats, but I seem to remember that if you look at all participants of the programs - i.e. everyone who starts, regardless of whether they drop out before finishing - there are some secular programs that are somewhat more effective than the average for 12-step programs.

However, this might still be an apples-to-oranges comparison, since I don't believe that all the secular programs follow a 12-step process like AA. It could be that the difference in performance comes down to method, not whether the program is "spiritual".

 

[Kathryn]

Here's my position:

AA is a private organization. They should be able to implement any sort of program they want.

That being said, no government/law enforcement agency should REQUIRE attendance to ANY organization that demands active participation in faith based activities.

So - in my world, AA can do what it wants, and if the government or law enforcement requires participation in some sort of AA-similar program, they need to find one that doesn't require active participation in faith based activities.

 

[waitasec]

Even when it's emphasized at the expense of recovery from alcoholism?

apparently...but this doesn't surprise me at all...

 

[Kathryn]

I'll have to dig up the stats, but I seem to remember that if you look at all participants of the programs - i.e. everyone who starts, regardless of whether they drop out before finishing - there are some secular programs that are somewhat more effective than the average for 12-step programs.

However, this might still be an apples-to-oranges comparison, since I don't believe that all the secular programs follow a 12-step process like AA. It could be that the difference in performance comes down to method, not whether the program is "spiritual".

Well, if there's enough demand in the market for 12 step/effective programs which don't include a spiritual aspect, then I guess someone will come up with one.

If a government entity is going to require participation in such a program, I guess they better develop one.