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AA kicks out two Toronto secular chapters

A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Religious recovery programs only trade one mind debilitating dependency for another.

AA's religious nature, while the core of its program, is very open and undefined (unless, of course, it is misapplied). One can define "God" anyway that one wants, but religious aspect is the core.

The problem with AA is that it believes that the power of conversion is the only power that can break addiction. The problem is, a religious conversion can't be forced, replicated, or initiated.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
True dat. The abysmal truth is that NO programs which are geared toward breaking substance abuse/addictions are really all that successful. And then, just like diet programs, they work for a small minority - who then, of course, are very excited about it and run around telling everyone how great the program is.

And I guess if you're addicted to something and your very life and all your quality relationships depend on breaking that addiction, and you key into something that actually WORKS for you - you'd want to share the good news.

All understandable - as long as you realize that the chances of true recovery are slim. Something has to "click" inside your head and your heart - and that's very different for each individual.

Regardless of the program, I'd say the mindset of letting go of victim complexes and taking full responsibility for your own choices as an adult are the main components to successful life changes. You don't need a Supreme Being for that necessarily - though that concept IS helpful for some people. I mean - it IS. Don't knock it for them. But also don't assume it works for everyone.

I'll put it this way - if I were dying of a cancer with a 99% mortality rate, and someone offered me something with a 7% success rate and that was the only show in town, I can promise you I'd throw myself into it with gusto. It beats the alternative.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't look for better options. It also doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. Offer something that's proven to be BETTER before you insist on changing something that works better than doing nothing at all.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
That doesn't mean we shouldn't look for better options. It also doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. Offer something that's proven to be BETTER before you insist on changing something that works better than doing nothing at all.

I think that the real benefit of AA is giving people a safe place to talk about their problems, notably alcoholism. It may not be a successful "cure," but it could possibly do something.

Perhaps the saddest thing about the whole AA fiasco is that its pervasiveness in our society is demonstrative of how little people really care about addiction.

That is, if people really cared about addiction, there would be better programs that are more effective.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I think that the real benefit of AA is giving people a safe place to talk about their problems, notably alcoholism. It may not be a successful "cure," but it could possibly do something.

Perhaps the saddest thing about the whole AA fiasco is that its pervasiveness in our society is demonstrative of how little people really care about addiction.

That is, if people really cared about addiction, there would be better programs that are more effective.

I can see where you're coming from. But I also think that it's more complex than that.

Addictions are mysterious - and they are such a potent mixture of emotional, physical, and mental issues and factors. In other words, I think they are extremely INDIVIDUAL - which is precisely why what works for one person probably won't work for the majority.

A few years ago, I lost 50 pounds. I've kept most of it off, but I keep yo-yoing with about 15 pounds of that original 50.

I am the same person, with the same emotional baggage, issues, personality, etc. I have MORE options, not less, now than I had then. I have the same "diet program" available to me now that I had then - so why don't I just pick that back up and do it again and never worry about that 15 pounds again? Why is it so difficult to simply apply the basic principle - eat less, exercise more - especially when it so obviously works, and even worked with ME?

My gosh, all I want is a little more bread and butter than is optimal for me - I can't even imagine dealing with the addiction that actual DRUGS or alcohol would cause.

I do know this though - I can't even articulate what clicked in my head a few years ago to enable me to lose that weight. I mean, I just decided to DO IT. I didn't have a big support system - I just got tired of shopping for fat girl clothes and I wanted to be able to buy clothes in "regular" sizes so one day I started eating less and exercising more. But - I know something emotional had to kick in. I suspect it had to do with the horror of realizing that if I didn't do something, I would just be a middle aged fat woman for the next twenty years - and then be an old fat woman - and I wasn't ready to go there yet.

We have to be unwilling to go there. I mean, truly UNWILLING. We have to decide "That is not my destiny" and then take small steps (sometimes 12 small steps ;)) in that direction - every day. Every single day for the rest of our lives.

It's daunting. Some people need faith in a Power outside of themselves in order to maintain that unending discipline.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
people are addicted to all sorts of things
the object of addiction isn't the problem, solving the problem is finding out why would one be addicted in the first place...
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Appropriate? No, not by a long shot. Necessary? Probably so. This situation has the markings of the birth of a "rival" group in the making. Odds are that the established AA proper just doesn't know how to deal with non-theism, despite their best interests.

So the way to go is probably to let them be as they may and found another group that knows how to deal properly with the existence of non-theists.
 

Wombat

Active Member
Yeah but it's their gig - they can be bossy if they want.

Um...No. They can't "be bossy" about what an individual takes to be their 'Higher Power'...in fact, in the end, they can't even 'know' unless the individual chooses to reveal and even then AA is in no position to claim to understand or interpret or >judge< what an individual chooses as ‘Higher Power’.

>Even if< they could "be bossy" and narrow down the definition of 'Higher Power' to a single religion or single denomination thereof there would >still< be more than enough diversity of belief for some fascist/fundamentalist to assert- "That is not the 'Higher Power' we believe in".
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Um...No. They can't "be bossy" about what an individual takes to be their 'Higher Power'...in fact, in the end, they can't even 'know' unless the individual chooses to reveal and even then AA is in no position to claim to understand or interpret or >judge< what an individual chooses as ‘Higher Power’.

>Even if< they could "be bossy" and narrow down the definition of 'Higher Power' to a single religion or single denomination thereof there would >still< be more than enough diversity of belief for some fascist/fundamentalist to assert- "That is not the 'Higher Power' we believe in".

Yay, way to put words into my mouth and then run off on a tangent based on your words, not mine!

I didn't say or imply anything about AA's right or power to determine what an "individual takes to be their Higher Power" or any of that other stuff you spouted off about.

What I was clearly saying is that AA is a private institution and if they want to include references to and a program built around the concept of a Higher Power - they certainly can.

If individuals who don't embrace the concept of a Higher Power still want to participate, they certainly can.

What these individuals do not have the right to do, however, is to demand that AA change their program's format.

That's what I meant by "AA can be bossy - it's their program."

If individuals don't want a program which includes the concept of a Higher Power, they are free to go develop or attend some other program - where they can make the rules and "be bossy" if they like.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Alcoholics Anonymous is the Big Book.

The organization is a separate thing.

So, technically, the two secular centered organizations could still call themselves AA. However, both the steps and traditions, especially the traditions, explicitly mention God..........as we understood him. In other words, it's supposed to be whatever anyone imagines God is. At the same time, there is no reason chapters formed out of communal agreement should list another group just because they want to be listed. It's more of a clique thing than anything else.

AA is slow to change though this particular situation is surprising because members of AA have been voicing the same opinion of being agnostic (a term explicitly mentioned in the Big Book as describing Bill W. and Dr. Bob) or outright atheist in their views but are still a part of AA.
 

Wombat

Active Member
Yay, way to put words into my mouth and then run off on a tangent based on your words, not mine!

I didn't say or imply anything about AA's right or power to determine what an "individual takes to be their Higher Power" or any of that other stuff you spouted off about..

Context of responses-
#22- You could always just name yourSelf, as Your Own Higher Power

#23- I don't think they're keen on that:

#25- Your lower Self drags you down,
your higher Self lifts you up.

For a group that practices magic,
They certainly are bossy about it.

#26- Yeah but it's their gig - they can be bossy if they want. Kathryn


Right....ok....you're not responding to the propisition that AA is being bossy about what a Higher Power might be......ok....:confused:


If individuals who don't embrace the concept of a Higher Power still want to participate, they certainly can..

What these individuals do not have the right to do, however, is to demand that AA change their program's format.


That's what I meant by "AA can be bossy - it's their program."..


So in the context of an exchange relating to "higher Self" representing 'Higher Power' you advocate it is AA's "gig" and "AA can be bossy - it's their program"...but you "didn't say or imply anything about AA's right or power to determine what an "individual takes to be their Higher Power"......right......ok..........:confused:



If individuals don't want a program which includes the concept of a Higher Power, they are free to go develop or attend some other program - where they can make the rules and "be bossy" if they like ."..

Hmmm....that would work and be relevant....>if only< the exchange hadn't been about choosing "higher Self" as representing 'Higher Power'.;)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That's what I meant by "AA can be bossy - it's their program."

If individuals don't want a program which includes the concept of a Higher Power, they are free to go develop or attend some other program - where they can make the rules and "be bossy" if they like.
The problem here is that AA already was "bossy": they set out a list of 12 foundational principles ("traditions"), which, along with referring to a "higher power", say things like this (emphasis mine):

3.—Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.—With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.

The A.A. Tradition
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
So in the context of an exchange relating to "higher Self" representing 'Higher Power' you advocate it is AA's "gig" and "AA can be bossy - it's their program"...but you "didn't say or imply anything about AA's right or power to determine what an "individual takes to be their Higher Power"......right......ok..........:confused:

i just think it really confusing that AA represents a higher power but then at the same time it's their program...
am i missing something? :confused:
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
4.&#8212;With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
4.—With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.

i don't get how the welfare of neighboring groups were being compromised...
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
i don't get how the welfare of neighboring groups were being compromised...

No, of course you wouldn't. You are an atheist, who does not believe in the existance of a Higher Power, so you don't see how the belief in a Higher Power could possibly be an asset to the tenets of the AA program.

In fact, the belief in a Higher Power is a major component of the AA program.

You know - it's like a strawberry pie. If you don't use strawberries, you may still be able to make a pie - but it won't be a strawberry pie.

You can call yourself an atheist, but if you say, "Yes, I'm an atheist, but I believe there may be a god," then you're not an atheist.

The AA Twelve Steps:

These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:
  1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
  2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
  3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
  4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
  5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
  6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
  7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
  8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
  9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
  10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
  11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
  12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
The AA Twelve Traditions:

The Twelve Traditions accompany the Twelve Steps. The Traditions provide guidelines for group governance. They were developed in AA in order to help resolve conflicts in the areas of publicity, religion and finances. Most twelve-step fellowships have adopted these principles for their structural governance. The Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous are as follows.

1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA unity.

2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

3. The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.

4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole.

5. Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

6. An AA group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the AA name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

7. Every AA group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional, but our service centers may employ special workers.

9. AA, as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
No, of course you wouldn't. You are an atheist, who does not believe in the existance of a Higher Power, so you don't see how the belief in a Higher Power could possibly be an asset to the tenets of the AA program.

so the entire point of AA is to lead people to god, not help them sober up?
:rolleyes:
 
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