AA kicks out two Toronto secular chapters

[gnomon]

You can tell a tree by it's fruits, and AA has helped millions of people attain sobriety. Sobriety does not mean "not drinking", it means having a spiritual awakening where the drunk comes to terms with their character defects on a much deeper level than just not drinking. There is a vast difference between a dry drunk and a recovererd alcoholic. AA is not an evangelical program. There is a great deal of flexibility for AA members, even some who are atheists. From my experience (years ago) in Adult Children of Alcoholics, I have to say that a godlless AA group is a contadiction in terms. AA is a spiritual program and that is why it has been successful since its inception.
AA groups may not work for 100% for those who enter its doors, but neither does any pscho-babble government program work 100% either.

I've compared the AA 12 steps with the agnotic steps. It's like comparing a vaccine with a watered down version. The first one worked, the second one might work. Most addicts of all stripes have bitter pre-conceived notions about religion, spirituality and God and that is partly why they are addicts in the first place.
Most recovered drug addicts, over-eater, gambler or alcoholic who lives the 12 step program will agree with me. If an agnostic AA group gets thrown out its because they have compromised what has proven to work and the whole thing is silly if you ask me.

Perhaps this is why 93% don't succed because in fact they lack faith in God. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Good luck to those trying it without a higher power. My guess is that they will fall in with the 93%.

You two have absolutely no idea of that which you talk about.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You two have absolutely no idea of that which you talk about.

Do I?

 

[gnomon]

Do I?

You do.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You do.

:foryou:

 

[kepha31]

The AA Preamble​

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
The AA Preamble

 

[Oneatatime]

I would have thought that Islam would have been a better religion for AA leaders to subscribe to as it prohibits alcohol whereas Christianity doesn't with the exception of a few sects.

 

[Kathryn]

AA doesn't endorse or subscribe to any particular religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The AA Preamble​

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
The AA Preamble

Juding by what happened to these two chapters, the bit I've bolded is false.

 

[Kathryn]

Membership is not the same thing as starting your own chapter, calling it AA and rewriting the 12 step program, which is the basis of the AA program.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Membership is not the same thing as starting your own chapter, calling it AA and rewriting the 12 step program, which is the basis of the AA program.

But the existing 12-step program, as given by AA, doesn't accommodate people of certain beliefs. Their changes to the 12-step program were a response to this problem.

That sentence should probably be re-written to say something like "the only requirements for membership are a desire to stop drinking and a belief in a god." It'd make it more accurate.

 

[Kathryn]

But the existing 12-step program, as given by AA, doesn't accommodate people of certain beliefs. Their changes to the 12-step program were a response to this problem.

That sentence should probably be re-written to say something like "the only requirements for membership are a desire to stop drinking and a belief in a god." It'd make it more accurate.

Well then - those who want the 12 step program changed to exclude any mention or reference to a Supreme Being should start their own program. They have no right to insist that AA change THEIR program.

 

[Kathryn]

Say that I wanted to join Earthward, Inc (an atheist charitable organization) because I believed in their cause so sincerely - helping victims worldwide who have suffered from religious conflicts. I start my own chapter and then I decide I want to rewrite the bylaws to include an invocation and benediction specifically praying to God at each meeting.

Should I force Earthward, Inc. to change THEIR mission statement and structure to accommodate my Christian beliefs? After all, I sincerely want to help victims of religious conflict around the world, and I truly have only their best interests at heart - and lots of time and money to donate to this worthy cause. Should I be able to insist that my local chapter of Earthward, Inc acknowledge the existance of God?

Or maybe, just maybe...I should go out and find an organization with a similar mission - which encompasses my personal beliefs. Or better yet - maybe I should start my OWN mission!

 

[Storm]

From TheStar.com:

I found this especially telling about the impact of this decision, as well as the positive effect of these secular chapters:

What does everyone else think of this? Is it appropriate for the biggest support group for recovering alcoholics to demand religious faith of its members?

Absolutely not.

 

[gnomon]

Say that I wanted to join Earthward, Inc (an atheist charitable organization) because I believed in their cause so sincerely - helping victims worldwide who have suffered from religious conflicts. I start my own chapter and then I decide I want to rewrite the bylaws to include an invocation and benediction specifically praying to God at each meeting.

Should I force Earthward, Inc. to change THEIR mission statement and structure to accommodate my Christian beliefs? After all, I sincerely want to help victims of religious conflict around the world, and I truly have only their best interests at heart - and lots of time and money to donate to this worthy cause. Should I be able to insist that my local chapter of Earthward, Inc acknowledge the existance of God?

Or maybe, just maybe...I should go out and find an organization with a similar mission - which encompasses my personal beliefs. Or better yet - maybe I should start my OWN mission!

I understand what you are talking about but the thing with AA is that if I and a few others start a group like the secular ones, follow the steps but do away with mention of a higher power.....it can still be an AA group. The secular groups are not insisting that the general service office change anything.

But as you say, the AA general service office does not have to list any group for any reason.

AA is a strange creature.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well then - those who want the 12 step program changed to exclude any mention or reference to a Supreme Being should start their own program. They have no right to insist that AA change THEIR program.

Now that the hypocrisy of the AA organization on this issue is apparent, I agree that this would be a logical next step. AA claimed to be open to all, but showed that it is not.

It was the fault of the leadership of these secular chapters for assuming that AA meant what it said, I guess.

Say that I wanted to join Earthward, Inc (an atheist charitable organization) because I believed in their cause so sincerely - helping victims worldwide who have suffered from religious conflicts. I start my own chapter and then I decide I want to rewrite the bylaws to include an invocation and benediction specifically praying to God at each meeting.

Should I force Earthward, Inc. to change THEIR mission statement and structure to accommodate my Christian beliefs? After all, I sincerely want to help victims of religious conflict around the world, and I truly have only their best interests at heart - and lots of time and money to donate to this worthy cause. Should I be able to insist that my local chapter of Earthward, Inc acknowledge the existance of God?

Or maybe, just maybe...I should go out and find an organization with a similar mission - which encompasses my personal beliefs. Or better yet - maybe I should start my OWN mission!

See if you can spot the difference:

- EARTHWARD explicitly tells people that it is an atheist-run organization, and runs its organization on that basis.

- AA explicitly tells people that "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking", yet structures its program in a way that makes belief in God a de facto requirement of membership.

IOW, only one of these organizations is acting hypocritically.

 

[kepha31]

I'm sure the critics of AA in here all know recovered alchoholics, have been to AA meetings, understand how it works, are well versed in AA literature, and are addictions experts.

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

How It Works, Alcoholics Anonymous,

How can one honestly be critical of something they know little or nothing about?

 

[gnomon]

I'm sure the critics of AA in here all know recovered alchoholics, have been to AA meetings, understand how it works, are well versed in AA literature, and are addictions experts.

How It Works, Alcoholics Anonymous,

How can one honestly be critical of something they know little or nothing about?

Years of attendance. That's how.

 

[Kathryn]

Now that the hypocrisy of the AA organization on this issue is apparent, I agree that this would be a logical next step. AA claimed to be open to all, but showed that it is not.

It was the fault of the leadership of these secular chapters for assuming that AA meant what it said, I guess.


See if you can spot the difference:

- EARTHWARD explicitly tells people that it is an atheist-run organization, and runs its organization on that basis.

- AA explicitly tells people that "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking", yet structures its program in a way that makes belief in God a de facto requirement of membership.

IOW, only one of these organizations is acting hypocritically.

No need to be condescending. I can spot differences - when there are differences.

Here's the deal with AA. Not sure if you've ever gone to an AA meeting, but I have because I accompanied a good friend of mine who was struggling with how to handle a family member with substance abuse issues.

AA's mission statement does not stand independently from it's 12 step process. If you go to a typical AA meeting, you are IMMEDIATELY exposed to the 12 steps. You can't avoid them. You can't avoid the references to a Higher Power. They are integral to the program, and this is not hidden.

My church has a mission statement. Our mission statement is "Love God. Share His grace." That's it. But that's not all that our church believes or stands for. If you visit my church, you will immediately realize that there's a lot more to the idea of doctrine and practice than simply "Love God. Share His grace."

That's a jumping off point - the start of the process so to speak. But it's immediately obvious that there's a lot more to it. Same with AA. Nothing is hidden or sneaky about the 12 Steps. My gosh, the mantra of 12 Steps is everywhere - it permeates the program. It IS the program.

By the way - as I've stated repeatedly - there is a difference between MEMBERSHIP in the program, and starting up a CHAPTER of the program. Membership and leadership are not the same animal.

Anyone can be a member if they simply want to stop drinking. But as they go along the 12 steps, they may hit steps they don't agree with. That's OK too - but they won't be comfortable and they won't be utilizing the whole program if they omit the uncomfortable parts. That's OK too - they can still be members. AA isn't lying about this or hiding it.

But membership isn't the question. Leadership and the integrity of the program itself is in question. No one at AA is saying that atheists can't be members. All they are saying is that the 12 steps - the very core of their program - cannot be changed and still touted as an AA program.

It may be something else - and it may be successful. But it won't be an AA program.

By the way, I haven't seen or heard of any AA leadership trying to stop other groups from starting new programs which include elements of AA. The atheists who wish to do so are free to do so. They just can't call it AA. I don't see the problem with that.

 

[gnomon]

Kathryn's right about that. The 12 Steps is pretty much the whole of the program. While other 12 step programs have started up for narcotics, cocaine, emotions, gamblers, sex, etc. the only thing they change is the word alcohol to the specific addiction but that doesn't change the overall 12 step program which is higher power oriented.

 

[kepha31]

By leaving out the steps one may not like, they sabatge the process of recovery. It's about pride really.